sodbuster Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I don't understand this whole "burden of proof" garbage. If I get pulled over driving and there's a pound of dope in my glovebox, I'm in big trouble. I can say all I want that it isn't mine, and I don't have to be under the influence (didn't affect the game) but I'm in deep doo-doo.
NoSaint Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Probably the person who was found at fault. Or, if it was found to be the GM and HC, both of them. BB was personally fined $500,000. I'd say he has the rep of cheating, not Kraft. The pats likely have any and all qualifiers in place, but it got me wondering on a briad level. Or if a team hired BBwiukd they start with a strike on the books for most people? I don't understand this whole "burden of proof" garbage. If I get pulled over driving and there's a pound of dope in my glovebox, I'm in big trouble. I can say all I want that it isn't mine, and I don't have to be under the influence (didn't affect the game) but I'm in deep doo-doo. Without understanding the act it's hard to hit individuals. Would point towards fines/picks but less likely a suspension
Pneumonic Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Even though one incident (Carolina's) was much more likely innocent in nature (ie, never having faced such a situation (normally being a Southen team)) vs the Pats*' case where they clearly knew there was a rule and broke it (as evidenced by the fact that they did the deed AFTER the ball check) and involved a team already found guilty of cheating, who may well have been doing this for ages (witness the statistical evidence above, plus the fact they were suspected to be doing this during the year as per some sources)? If so, I'm sure you're in a clear minority. They both are infractions that doctor the ball from its intended spec. I don't see any difference in either infraction from this perspective. I suppose the Pats prior transgression might make it more likely the league would come down harder on them but, for such a menial transgression, I doubt it. Certainly, if the blame was pinned on Brady only, then I doubt he'd be viewed in a past transgression way like the team (ie Belichick) might.
Fadingpain Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 In the case of a corked bat? Because it feels like an advantage (because you swing the bat faster), and they're idiots. If the goal is to have the batted ball speed as great as possible (like for benefitting a home run hitter) then yes, there is no benefit to corking a bat. The lower mass penalty exceeds the increased acceleration bonus of swinging a lighter bat. However, there is most certainly a benefit to a good hitter hitting for average with a corked bat. His greater bat speed (using the lighter, corked bat) allows him to sit on pitches longer and delay his swing a bit longer...giving him more time to see a pitch and hit it better.
Pneumonic Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I don't understand this whole "burden of proof" garbage. If I get pulled over driving and there's a pound of dope in my glovebox, I'm in big trouble. I can say all I want that it isn't mine, and I don't have to be under the influence (didn't affect the game) but I'm in deep doo-doo. In this case the law presumes that you are responsible for your vehicle (incl all of its contents) while you own/drive it. In the case of deflategate, the league doesn't mandate that the Pats exhibit responsibility for the footballs at any time. Maybe they should?
FireChan Posted January 23, 2015 Author Posted January 23, 2015 The pats likely have any and all qualifiers in place, but it got me wondering on a briad level. Or if a team hired BBwiukd they start with a strike on the books for most people? Without understanding the act it's hard to hit individuals. Would point towards fines/picks but less likely a suspension Yes. Just like if a convicted criminal in NYS moved elsewhere, that would still be held against him.
Stads Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Wait a minute. What's all this I'm hearing about the Patriots deflating footballs?
sodbuster Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 In this case the law presumes that you are responsible for your vehicle (incl all of its contents) while you own/drive it. In the case of deflategate, the league doesn't mandate that the Pats exhibit responsibility for the footballs at any time. Maybe they should? If a league official checks the balls to make sure they are acceptable, then turns them over to a team employee for the game, and the rules state that they must be within a certain tolerance, it seems to me that, yes, they are responsible for them.
strive_for_five_guy Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I don't understand this whole "burden of proof" garbage. If I get pulled over driving and there's a pound of dope in my glovebox, I'm in big trouble. I can say all I want that it isn't mine, and I don't have to be under the influence (didn't affect the game) but I'm in deep doo-doo. So if you get pulled over in a rental car which happens to have a pound of dope in the glovebox, are you at fault if you had no idea who put the dope in there to begin with?
Pneumonic Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 If a league official checks the balls to make sure they are acceptable, then turns them over to a team employee for the game, and the rules state that they must be within a certain tolerance, it seems to me that, yes, they are responsible for them. Then such responsibility would have to be explicitly laid out in the rules. This isn't the case here nor would it ever be the case I imagine. Not when too many uncontrolled variables are intrinsically involved. I mean, how could a team be held responsible if the weather drops the PSI to below spec? Or, what if a slow leak developed during the game. Should that be the teams responsibility? Of course not.
Rubes Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Then such responsibility would have to be explicitly laid out in the rules. This isn't the case here nor would it ever be the case I imagine. Not when too many uncontrolled variables are intrinsically involved. I mean, how could a team be held responsible if the weather drops the PSI to below spec? Or, what if a slow leak developed during the game. Should that be the teams responsibility? Of course not. A team wouldn't be held responsible if all balls on both sides were equally affected by the weather. Nor would a team be held responsible if a single ball developed a slow leak. Neither of which applies to this situation.
Prickly Pete Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Except that the pressure is checked 2 hrs, 15 mins before kickoff and turn given to the respective teams. Two points: 1. There are no cameras rolling (or even people in the stadium) then; 2. That's plenty of time to take them wherever and do whatever to them. To say otherwise doesn't stand up to scrutiny. As noted above, you keep embarrassing yourself here. How much are the League/Pats* paying you to troll here? But those are the facts as being attributed to League-related sources. Let's get one thing straight here--your position if/when all of that comes out as true? So far, you just keep saying "it's not true, there's no proof". What if the League turns around and says it's all true as per their investigation? Are you ok with this blatant cheating? If so, why? First off, I was responding to someone's retort that the balls could be doctored on the field, using a pump pin, through sleight of hand. Go back and read it. I also mentioned that if it happened within the stadium (as opposed to the field area), there would be cameras showing activity where the balls are kept, and I definitely believe that security cameras are on by that time. If the officials are there, security cameras would be on. They are probably on 24/7. Even if they only show who enters the room where they are kept, it would at least narrow it down to those people. I never claimed that there wasn't enough time between when the officials test the balls and the game, to deflate them. I responded to the assertion that "it would only take a second" to accurately, and consistently deflate the balls during the game that quickly, and without there being some questioning of his motions at some point. There are tons of cameras on the field filming cheerleaders, the bench, the coaches, the HoF ex-players on the sidelines. Someone would have caught suspicious footage of a ballboy to bring forward. I assume that it was done off the field. Peter King mentioned that he spent a pregame with an official and noted how seriously they took watching over the gameballs. Maybe you know more about the pregame ball treatment. You appear to have inside knowledge of the procedure, please tell me where you sourced this information? You may be an expert on the subject...don't keep it secret. My position is that every NFL game has participants that are cheating on various levels. There are plenty of players using PED's, there coaches that have stolen signals, there are owners that have been in contact with other teams coaches, there are GM's that have been in contact with players approaching free agency, players that cheat on the concussion tests...on and on And I don't feel that deflating the ball rates high on the cheating scale.That's right, I don't believe that every cheat is equal. I don't think jaywalking is the equal to murder, and I don't believe deflating a ball is as serious as throwing games, or targeting a player for injury rewards. MY list looks about like this... 1. Throwing games, gambling. 2. Bribing officials 3. Conspiring to injure a player 4. Taping teams practices, bugging rooms... espionage. 5. Using PED's 6. Amplifying crowd noise through the PA 7. Negotiating with players, coaches, under contract to another team. 8. Fighting on the field ...... 15 Deflating the ball 16. Late Hits Do I believe someone from the Pats (probably Brady and his ballboy or the equipment manager. I don't think Belichick is involved) doctored the balls? I think that's most likely, but I certainly don't rule out a frame (or even a weird temperature change, I don't know the exact conditions for their balls at Gillette. They may be kept under different conditions than the opponents balls, too). The NFL is filled with guys just as driven as Belichick, that's why they have had all these kinds of rules in place...everyone is looking for an angle, and it's nothing new. Lawrence Taylor wrote about the opposition sending hookers and blow to his hotel room the night before games. Matt Bowen (ex-Bill) talks about teams sending people to scour the opposing teams hotel room for left behind game plans.That is the atmosphere that the people in the league operate in. Any negative comments from rivals and ex-players (particular from those competing for the "Best Ever" title) are hard to consider impartial, so I don't care what Mark Brunell, Jerry Rice (smuggest of all time), or Troy Aikman (America's Favorite Homer) say. So much jealousy, and pettiness there (just like the fans here). I feel a heavy fine would be enough, but if the league wants to satisfy the bloodlust of the crowd, a short suspension, or the loss of a draft pick or 2 would be fine. Disqualifying them from the Super Bowl...ridiculous. There is no proof that this was anything more than a single game transgression. In my opinion it is the officials responsibility to keep the ball regulation, and if they didn't catch them in the prior games, it's too late. There is already a fine in place for this transgression ( Starts at $25,000 someone said. That gives you a good idea where it ranks. This case is on the extreme end, but to leap from that, to "suspend the coach for a year", is way out of line) . If some want to strut around, and claim that the Pats were never that great, that is fine, but this doesn't change my opinion of them. I gain no pleasure from it. The only pleasure I will get is when the Bills stamp all over the Pats with Brady. If I find out later that EJM had deflated a ball, it won't take a bit of satisfaction away from me. It's the game within the game. Edited January 23, 2015 by HoF Watkins
eball Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 So if you get pulled over in a rental car which happens to have a pound of dope in the glovebox, are you at fault if you had no idea who put the dope in there to begin with? You would have to overcome a presumption that the goods are yours, since they are technically in your possession. In the case of a rental car it seems that presumption could be pretty easily rebutted, but you would have to present some evidence as to why it's not yours.
MattM Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 First off, I was responding to someone's retort that the balls could be doctored on the field, using a pump pin, through sleight of hand. Go back and read it. I also mentioned that if it happened within the stadium (as opposed to the field area), there would be cameras showing activity where the balls are kept, and I definitely believe that security cameras are on by that time. If the officials are there, security cameras would be on. They are probably on 24/7. Even if they only show who enters the room where they are kept, it would at least narrow it down to those people. I never claimed that there wasn't enough time between when the officials test the balls and the game, to deflate them. I responded to the assertion that "it would only take a second" to accurately, and consistently deflate the balls during the game that quickly, and without there being some questioning of his motions at some point. There are tons of cameras on the field filming cheerleaders, the bench, the coaches, the HoF ex-players on the sidelines. Someone would have caught suspicious footage of a ballboy to bring forward. I assume that it was done off the field. Peter King mentioned that he spent a pregame with an official and noted how seriously they took watching over the gameballs. Maybe you know more about the pregame ball treatment. You appear to have inside knowledge of the procedure, please tell me where you sourced this information? You may be an expert on the subject...don't keep it secret. My position is that every NFL game has participants that are cheating on various levels. There are plenty of players using PED's, there coaches that have stolen signals, there are owners that have been in contact with other teams coaches, there are GM's that have been in contact with players approaching free agency, players that cheat on the concussion tests...on and on And I don't feel that deflating the ball rates high on the cheating scale.That's right, I don't believe that every cheat is equal. I don't think jaywalking is the equal to murder, and I don't believe deflating a ball is as serious as throwing games, or targeting a player for injury rewards. MY list looks about like this... 1. Throwing games, gambling. 2. Bribing officials 3. Conspiring to injure a player 4. Taping teams practices, bugging rooms... espionage. 5. Using PED's 6. Amplifying crowd noise through the PA 7. Negotiating with players, coaches, under contract to another team. 8. Fighting on the field ...... 15 Deflating the ball 16. Late Hits Do I believe someone from the Pats (probably Brady and his ballboy or the equipment manager. I don't think Belichick is involved) doctored the balls? I think that's most likely, but I certainly don't rule out a frame (or even a weird temperature change, I don't know the exact conditions for their balls at Gillette. They may be kept under different conditions than the opponents balls, too). The NFL is filled with guys just as driven as Belichick, that's why they have had all these kinds of rules in place...everyone is looking for an angle, and it's nothing new. Lawrence Taylor wrote about the opposition sending hookers and blow to his hotel room the night before games. Matt Bowen (ex-Bill) talks about teams sending people to scour the opposing teams hotel room for left behind game plans.That is the atmosphere that the people in the league operate in. Any negative comments from rivals and ex-players (particular from those competing for the "Best Ever" title) are hard to consider impartial, so I don't care what Mark Brunell, Jerry Rice (smuggest of all time), or Troy Aikman (America's Favorite Homer) say. So much jealousy, and pettiness there (just like the fans here). I feel a heavy fine would be enough, but if the league wants to satisfy the bloodlust of the crowd, a short suspension, or the loss of a draft pick or 2 would be fine. Disqualifying them from the Super Bowl...ridiculous. There is no proof that this was anything more than a single game transgression. In my opinion it is the officials responsibility to keep the ball regulation, and if they didn't catch them in the prior games, it's too late. There is already a fine in place for this transgression ( Starts at $25,000 someone said. That gives you a good idea where it ranks. This case is on the extreme end, but to leap from that, to "suspend the coach for a year", is way out of line) . If some want to strut around, and claim that the Pats were never that great, that is fine, but this doesn't change my opinion of them. I gain no pleasure from it. The only pleasure I will get is when the Bills stamp all over the Pats with Brady. If I find out later that EJM had deflated a ball, it won't take a bit of satisfaction away from me. It's the game within the game. Wow--with the amount of time you're spending on this, you really must be a League or Pats* paid troll. I wonder if they've done the same thing on other message boards throughout the League. Are you guys all holed up in one "damage control-central" spot? Just wondering. No one here buys the crap you're selling, except your Pats* buddy Pneumonic. At least he's open about being a Pats* fan/apologist. No one buys his crap, either, BTW, but at least he's honest about his angle.
plenzmd1 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) MattM, I agree with Pneumonic that to this point we do not even know that anything happened with these balls. The NFL has not confirmed, nor denied, anything. They both consistently miss the point that if it is confirmed these balls were tampered with, enen if absolute blame cannot be placed on one individual, it confirms what many have thought of the Pats for years. They will now not have one isolated incident of skirting the rules, but a pattern. To them make the leap that these are the only two instances were they cheated is non sensical. It puts all 15 years of Brady/Belicheck in question, and no one will ever recognize their accomplishments as legit. That is what they both miss. Watkins saying absent video the whole thing did not happen is absurdity at its finest. Edited January 23, 2015 by plenzmd1
KD in CA Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 “I listened to Bill Belichick and I believed every word he said,” eight-year NFL pro Matt Leinart told The Post. “Not once did a head coach ever have any input in that. It’s strictly a quarterback to equipment manager thing and that’s pretty universal. Those are the only two guys that have any part of that process. “You go through the whole bag and you literally handpick them and say, ‘This one is good, this one’s too hard, put a little bit of air in that one, take a little bit out. … It’s a full 20-minute process to make sure on Sunday you have the exact football you want to be throwing. Quarterbacks are very, very picky about how they want their ball and that goes on everywhere.” Leinart, now an analyst with FOX Sports, said he saw numerous things done to balls in his career, including being rubbed with varying substances and thrown in dryers, to get the right feel. He said he didn’t consider it cheating because “every team doctors up the ball to the liking of their quarterback” and that while deflation would help Brady with his grip, it would take away velocity and distance on throws. Don't know if this was posted earlier but these are the kinds of comments I've been looking for from current or former players. Leinart is pretty clear on who was responsible.
Beerball Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 How the hell can you guys say so much about something as insubstantial as brady*s balls? Member name Posts DC Tom 147 Stopthepain 107 HoF Watkins 99 Kelly the Dog 80 YoloinOhio 68 K8prisoner 62 NoSaint 59 BillsFan-4-Ever 54 plenzmd1 50 May Day 10 47
nucci Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 MattM, I agree with Pneumonic that to this point we do not even know that anything happened with these balls. The NFL has not confirmed, nor denied, anything. They both consistently miss the point that if it is confirmed these balls were tampered with, enen if absolute blame cannot be placed on one individual, it confirms what many have thought of the Pats for years. They will now not have one isolated incident of skirting the rules, but a pattern. To them make the leap that these are the only two instances were they cheated is non sensical. It puts all 15 years of Brady/Belicheck in question, and no one will ever recognize their accomplishments as legit. That is what they both miss. Watkins saying absent video the whole thing did not happen is absurdity at its finest. and that is the best part of all this
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