Fadingpain Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 remind me the 3 other convictions they had? im still not sure where i drop this one in the spectrum. probably somewhere around those types of violations. that aaron rodgers joked openly about over-inflating with a TV personality and no one seemed to get up in arms about it makes me lean towards it being a little lower on the spectrum, but similar. Well to be fair, Rodgers was saying that he is in the minority and that most would prefer an under-inflated ball. Also, an overly curved stick in hockey, corked bat, and overly pine-tarred bat are not good analogies. Those would all benefit a single player when he happens to be on the ice or batting (unless you had the entire team cheat with their sticks and bats, but that never seems to be the case). Having basically all balls under-inflated every single offensive play for New England (but not for the opposition) gives everyone who touches the ball for NE an advantage on every play of the game! And we know the center and Brady touch the ball every play, for sure. So perhaps the best analogy is the goalie pads that are too wide; it benefits one team and not the other every single time the opponent shoots, for the entire game. But it's not about the scope of the infraction here. It is about the nature of the intent behind the infraction, which is serious and dangerous to the integrity of the game.
MattM Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Note that all 11 illegal balls were not only under inflated substantially, but apparently by the same amount. They were obviously uniformly doctored to Tom Brady's liking. Some years ago he said as much in a WEEI Boston radio interview...that he likes the ball when it is under inflated by Gronk spiking the thing hard after a TD. The possibility for "mistake" here is close to zero. For the "it's only the air pressure of a football, get over it!" crowd... If Bill. B. and the Patriots as an organization will do the Spygate stuff and doctor footballs, what else will they do? Once you are established to be a cheater who looks for any and all competitive advantage to win, including illegal advantages, it must be assumed you are trying to cheat every way you can, all the time. I still say the best way to cheat is the stuff about talking to Brady up to the snap of the ball and during plays. I am dying for a NE opponent to petition to the league to be allowed to have their wireless communications guys "inspect" the NE equipment and Brady's helmet some game, like 1 hour before kickoff, preferably when NE is on the road and it might be hard for them to mess around with fake substitute legal equipment as a result... I have to assume someone is talking into Brady's helmet illegally (and maybe other players as well) on every play. Go read O'Leary's book--he describes how Doug Flutie on a radio interview post-Spygate mentioned laughingly (like he thought it was funny) how he once picked up the wrong QB helmet during a game and could hear the coaches talking on it well after the League-mAndated cutoff.
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Some of the Baltimore Ravens believe kicking balls used in their playoff game at New England were slightly under-inflated, according to league sources. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24981269/some-baltimore-ravens-think-footballs-were-under-inflated-vs-patriots
TheFunPolice Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 I don't recall Rice's 49ers losing any Super Bowls. Pats* cheated to win each SB by 3 pts 49ers demolished people in most if their SB wins. Also you're right: Rice's teams didn't lose. But the Pats* are the greatest team of all time
NoSaint Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Well to be fair, Rodgers was saying that he is in the minority and that most would prefer an under-inflated ball. i dont see how that makes any difference to the point being made. if its altering equipment to a preferred status outside the rules, im not sure why you have a distinction there?
Fadingpain Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Let's say your 8 year old son takes $5 from your wallet left on a night stand while you were out mowing the lawn. You note the loss of the $5 bill and for some reason confront the 8 year old regarding this. He says he knows nothing about it. You later find out from your 10 year old daughter (eye witness) that the boy took the $5 and she told him he would be sorry. Do you say "no big deal, it is only $5. That's not a lot of money and it doesn't really impact the economics of running my household" or do you freak out b/c your 8 year old is learning at a young age to steal, be dishonest, and lie? Is this a "minor infraction" or a very serious matter for you? To me, that is perfectly analogous to Deflate-gate.
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) Let's say your 8 year old son takes $5 from your wallet left on a night stand while you were out mowing the lawn. You note the loss of the $5 bill and for some reason confront the 8 year old regarding this. He says he knows nothing about it. You later find out from your 10 year old daughter (eye witness) that the boy took the $5 and she told him he would be sorry. Do you say "no big deal, it is only $5. That's not a lot of money and it doesn't really impact the economics of running my household" or do you freak out b/c your 8 year old is learning at a young age to steal, be dishonest, and lie? Is this a "minor infraction" or a very serious matter for you? To me, that is perfectly analogous to Deflate-gate. More importantly, this would have been the 2nd time you've caught your 8-year-old stealing from your wallet. Edited January 21, 2015 by TheBillsWillRiseAgain
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 You know this for a fact or just talking out of your ass? Always amazes me how many scientists and lawyers we have on this board. The league also inspected the Colts' footballs, which also sat outside for the same amount of time, and all were within parameters. Yet 11 of 12 Patriot footballs were "significantly underinflated." Well, I am a physicist, so let's do the math: The relation between pressure and gas are constant, so it's an easy calculation. P/T = C. But it doesn't matter what C is, since we're comparing two different ratios to each other, i.e. (P/T)pregame = (P/T)outdoors. Going by recollection, game-time temperatures were about 4 degrees Celsius. Indoor were probably on the order of 72 degrees F - let's take the high end and call it 24C. Convert to Kelvins, that's about 277K and 299K, respectively. So inflate the balls to 12.5psi pregame, and (12.5/297) = (P/277). Pressure at game-time temps is 277*12.5/297 = 11.6psi. Claims seem to be that the balls were measured at 10.5psi. Even assuming the pressure gauge is inaccurate, if it's inaccurate to the point of being a pound off, then the league can't accurately measure the inflation of the balls to begin with (given that the acceptable range of inflation would be equal to the error of the gauge.) If that particular gauge was measuring low by a pound, then the league screwed up in using a defective gauge. If, however, the gauges were accurate, somebody deflated the balls during the game by about one psi. I'm inclined to believe the latter, for two reasons: 1) Reports are that all the balls were deflated to the same pressure, which in itself implies accuracy in measurement, and 2) I hate The Brady and The Hoodie. But no matter the cause, this represents a serious lack of quality control by the league, which is particularly alarming given that it's a league that goes to excessively nitpicky lengths to define on-field rules (like what is and is not a complete pass) in the name of quality.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Pats* cheated to win each SB by 3 pts 49ers demolished people in most if their SB wins. Also you're right: Rice's teams didn't lose. But the Pats* are the greatest team of all time correction the Pats* are the greatest cheaters of all time
Fadingpain Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Go read O'Leary's book--he describes how Doug Flutie on a radio interview post-Spygate mentioned laughingly (like he thought it was funny) how he once picked up the wrong QB helmet during a game and could hear the coaches talking on it well after the League-mAndated cutoff. That's what I was referring to! Never mind how many teams around the league are playing with ball PSI.....how many are "coaching" the QB before, during, and after every single play? Someone who is looking to cheat and get an advantage MUST be doing this...and the first place to look would be NE. Christ, NE probably has a dude up in the booth who talks to Brady almost non-stop the entire game, as they do to drivers in auto racing these days.
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 remind me the 3 other convictions they had? im still not sure where i drop this one in the spectrum. probably somewhere around those types of violations. that aaron rodgers joked openly about over-inflating with a TV personality and no one seemed to get up in arms about it makes me lean towards it being a little lower on the spectrum, but similar. Tampering in getting Belichick, illegally taping other teams. I don't recall if there was any punishment for tampering with Randy Moss...but I don't think so. That's what I was referring to! Never mind how many teams around the league are playing with ball PSI.....how many are "coaching" the QB before, during, and after every single play? Clearly the Bills aren't. My God, could you imagine how much MORE !@#$ed up Manuel would be if he had Marrone or Hackett yammering in his ear constantly?
Fadingpain Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 i dont see how that makes any difference to the point being made. if its altering equipment to a preferred status outside the rules, im not sure why you have a distinction there? He didn't say that, did he? In fact, in the ESPN article I linked to above, he said that he likes the ball to be inflated "as much as possible" basically, and he was complaining when NFL officials always lower the pressure to bring it within that 1 PSI accepted range. He was also saying there is no real competitive advantage to inflating the ball MORE...it's just how he likes it. So the maximum PSI limit should be eliminated in Rodgers view, while the lower limit should be retained. Violating the lower limit is where the advantage is to be gained for most guys, most of the time according to Rodgers. Did he admit to illegally over-inflating balls? I didn't catch that if he has said that in the past!
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 He didn't say that, did he? In fact, in the ESPN article I linked to above, he said that he likes the ball to be inflated "as much as possible" basically, and he was complaining when NFL officials always lower the pressure to bring it within that 1 PSI accepted range. He was also saying there is no real competitive advantage to inflating the ball MORE...it's just how he likes it. I'll buy that when Jordy Nelson agrees with him.
YoloinOhio Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 @MikeReiss: Via @NFLSTROUD, the story of Buccaneers QB Brad Johnson paying to have footballs altered before Super Bowl: http://t.co/a1emXAPPnC
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 (edited) He didn't say that, did he? In fact, in the ESPN article I linked to above, he said that he likes the ball to be inflated "as much as possible" basically, and he was complaining when NFL officials always lower the pressure to bring it within that 1 PSI accepted range. He was also saying there is no real competitive advantage to inflating the ball MORE...it's just how he likes it. So the maximum PSI limit should be eliminated in Rodgers view, while the lower limit should be retained. Violating the lower limit is where the advantage is to be gained for most guys, most of the time according to Rodgers. Did he admit to illegally over-inflating balls? I didn't catch that if he has said that in the past! that's Aaron and not Brady. 11 balls exactly 2 pounds under regulation. no way in hell that's a coincidence!! DC Tom's a physicist lets ask him the odds of that happening Edited January 21, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever
Kelly the Dog Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Well, I am a physicist, so let's do the math: The relation between pressure and gas are constant, so it's an easy calculation. P/T = C. But it doesn't matter what C is, since we're comparing two different ratios to each other, i.e. (P/T)pregame = (P/T)outdoors. Going by recollection, game-time temperatures were about 4 degrees Celsius. Indoor were probably on the order of 72 degrees F - let's take the high end and call it 24C. Convert to Kelvins, that's about 277K and 299K, respectively. So inflate the balls to 12.5psi pregame, and (12.5/297) = (P/277). Pressure at game-time temps is 277*12.5/297 = 11.6psi. Claims seem to be that the balls were measured at 10.5psi. Even assuming the pressure gauge is inaccurate, if it's inaccurate to the point of being a pound off, then the league can't accurately measure the inflation of the balls to begin with (given that the acceptable range of inflation would be equal to the error of the gauge.) If that particular gauge was measuring low by a pound, then the league screwed up in using a defective gauge. If, however, the gauges were accurate, somebody deflated the balls during the game by about one psi. I'm inclined to believe the latter, for two reasons: 1) Reports are that all the balls were deflated to the same pressure, which in itself implies accuracy in measurement, and 2) I hate The Brady and The Hoodie. But no matter the cause, this represents a serious lack of quality control by the league, which is particularly alarming given that it's a league that goes to excessively nitpicky lengths to define on-field rules (like what is and is not a complete pass) in the name of quality. You're the greatest.
May Day 10 Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 @MikeReiss: Via @NFLSTROUD, the story of Buccaneers QB Brad Johnson paying to have footballs altered before Super Bowl: http://t.co/a1emXAPPnC lol! Thats a gag article, right?
NoSaint Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Tampering in getting Belichick, illegally taping other teams. I don't recall if there was any punishment for tampering with Randy Moss...but I don't think so. Clearly the Bills aren't. My God, could you imagine how much MORE !@#$ed up Manuel would be if he had Marrone or Hackett yammering in his ear constantly? Ha! manuel seemed to play his best when the radio was broken.
DC Tom Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 that's Aaron and not Brady. 11 balls exactly 2 pounds under regulation. no way in hell that's a coincidence!! DC Tom's a physicist lets ask him the odds of that happening Insufficient data. Tell me the exact pressures they were measured at, and the variance in the measuring device, and I'll tell you. And by the way, I heard "between 1 and 2 pounds," not "exactly 2 pounds." Not sure which the real report is, but whatever it is, it seems to be changing. You're the greatest. I know.
Wayne Cubed Posted January 21, 2015 Posted January 21, 2015 Well, I am a physicist, so let's do the math: The relation between pressure and gas are constant, so it's an easy calculation. P/T = C. But it doesn't matter what C is, since we're comparing two different ratios to each other, i.e. (P/T)pregame = (P/T)outdoors. Going by recollection, game-time temperatures were about 4 degrees Celsius. Indoor were probably on the order of 72 degrees F - let's take the high end and call it 24C. Convert to Kelvins, that's about 277K and 299K, respectively. So inflate the balls to 12.5psi pregame, and (12.5/297) = (P/277). Pressure at game-time temps is 277*12.5/297 = 11.6psi. Claims seem to be that the balls were measured at 10.5psi. Even assuming the pressure gauge is inaccurate, if it's inaccurate to the point of being a pound off, then the league can't accurately measure the inflation of the balls to begin with (given that the acceptable range of inflation would be equal to the error of the gauge.) If that particular gauge was measuring low by a pound, then the league screwed up in using a defective gauge. If, however, the gauges were accurate, somebody deflated the balls during the game by about one psi. I'm inclined to believe the latter, for two reasons: 1) Reports are that all the balls were deflated to the same pressure, which in itself implies accuracy in measurement, and 2) I hate The Brady and The Hoodie. But no matter the cause, this represents a serious lack of quality control by the league, which is particularly alarming given that it's a league that goes to excessively nitpicky lengths to define on-field rules (like what is and is not a complete pass) in the name of quality. I wonder if when they said it was 2 PSI out, if they meant measuring to the 12.5 PSI or the 11.5 PSI because the NFL dictates a range from 11.5 - 12.5 PSI.
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