Augie Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 What are the penalties for those transgressions? Forfeiture? Season Suspension? A million dollar fine? Coaches fired? Player and coach suspended? Nah... What's the prior history? If you don't realize that's a critical component you're missing the point.
mead107 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Colts linebacker says he did not tell the officials that he thought something was wrong with the balls.
Augie Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Colts linebacker says he did not tell the officials that he thought something was wrong with the balls. I wish the league, or SOMEBODY, would come out with the facts. I also wish I could believe the "facts". What the heck happened here? I know it was something but details seem to be fluid.
bbb Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The original data only accounted for fumbles lost. The study was redone accounting for fumbles in general and, while the patriots were still high, they fell within a couple standard deviations. It was also brought up that they are an organization that is known to limit situations where fumbling occurs frequently. Their quarterback is well protected and doesn't get sacked often compared to league averages, and they value players who hold onto the football and bench players who fumble. I think that was the gist Thanks!
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 This is interesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/24/sports/football/patriots-do-notably-well-in-wet-weather-analysis-shows.html?_r=0 . The Patriots do much better against the spread in wet weather than in dry weather. It's more like excessive pine tar or putting substances on the baseball.... Pineda was suspended for a week for using pine tar. I felt it was unfair - pitchers should be able to use it if batters can, and I have no problem with allowing pitchers to improve their grip in cold weather. It improves the game. He did break the rule though.
bbb Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 What are the penalties for those transgressions? Forfeiture? Season Suspension? A million dollar fine? Coaches fired? Player and coach suspended? Nah... Sosa was suspended for a corked bat. Joe Niekro was suspended for having sandpaper or something in his hat.
TheFunPolice Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 this is just awesome.... Now Seattle needs to do its part and CRUSH these cheating scum!
Deranged Rhino Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I wish the league, or SOMEBODY, would come out with the facts. I also wish I could believe the "facts". What the heck happened here? I know it was something but details seem to be fluid. It's been confirmed in a few different articles in this thread (or maybe just repeated) that it wasn't the Colts LB who said something about the ball. It was in fact the Colts' equipment guy who the defender gave the ball to after the interception. I'm too lazy to go back through and pull the article(s), but it's there.
Pneumonic Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) I have a bad feeling they're not going to do anything because they "Don't have any/enough proof" to pin it on the Patriots. Which is bull ****. Within the last 3 days I someone post Roger Goodell's letter to the competition committee he wrote right after Spygate that basically said that from here on out the league was going to significantly relax the "burden of proof" required of the league when dealing with these matters. I have a feeling the words in that letter are going to splashed all over the internet when the league claims they don't have the evidence to punish the pats. Does anyone have a link to that letter or what it said? I'm driving myself crazy trying to find it on google. The most likely guilty party in all of this is the guy handling the footballs; so Brady. Any smoking gun will, if it shows up, involve him. If it does show up, then the case is closed. If nothing shows up, the league is in a bind. Should they choose to employ the relaxed "burden of proof" that you speak of and cast blame on Brady, without full proof, the league had better prepare itself for a defamation suit. Brady has ample $ to afford hiring a who's who team of the hottest lawyers in existence to battle things out in court. Faced with the very real possibility of losing, I can't imagine the league would touch this with a 10 foot pole. Edited January 23, 2015 by Pneumonic
Augie Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 It's been confirmed in a few different articles in this thread (or maybe just repeated) that it wasn't the Colts LB who said something about the ball. It was in fact the Colts' equipment guy who the defender gave the ball to after the interception. I'm too lazy to go back through and pull the article(s), but it's there. Yeah, I heard it was the equipment guy, but I wonder if he was looking for it because he was tipped off by the Ravens (as I've heard) or is it just obvious by handling it. If so, what about the refs? The league said balls were under-inflated. Was it 11 of 12 and how much lower were they? I could go on and on. Just so many questions and so few answers. Second story on NBC Nightly News. Hope it stays front page because, well, they're a bunch of cheaters in my mind and the NFL only seems to respond to bad public perception.
Prickly Pete Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) What's the prior history? If you don't realize that's a critical component you're missing the point. No, I'm not. A guy gets caught with a corked bat a few times, they don't suspend the coach for a year, let alone the player. Or forfeit a series. Some of he penalties suggested have been way out of line. And this isn't anywhere near BountyGate. A game suspension (baseball has way more games, so it's relative) wouldn't be out of line, IF they could prove who did it. Sosa was suspended for a corked bat. Joe Niekro was suspended for having sandpaper or something in his hat. Yeah, that's fine. Read my posts first. Edited January 23, 2015 by HoF Watkins
FireChan Posted January 23, 2015 Author Posted January 23, 2015 No, I'm not. A guy gets caught with a corked bat a few times, they don't suspend the coach for a year, let alone the player. Or forfeit a series. Some of he penalties suggested have been way out of line. And this isn't anywhere near BountyGate. A game suspension (baseball has way more games, so it's relative) wouldn't be out of line, IF they could prove who did it. Yeah, that's fine. Read my posts first. You said neither of those guys got suspended.
Prickly Pete Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) You said neither of those guys got suspended. WHere?I have responded to the same questions about 5 times each. Here is my position.... First off, I was responding to someone's retort that the balls could be doctored on the field, using a pump pin, through sleight of hand. Go back and read it. I also mentioned that if it happened within the stadium (as opposed to the field area), there would be cameras showing activity where the balls are kept, and I definitely believe that security cameras are on by that time. If the officials are there, security cameras would be on. They are probably on 24/7. Even if they only show who enters the room where they are kept, it would at least narrow it down to those people. I never claimed that there wasn't enough time between when the officials test the balls and the game, to deflate them. I responded to the assertion that "it would only take a second" to accurately, and consistently deflate the balls during the game that quickly, and without there being some questioning of his motions at some point. There are tons of cameras on the field filming cheerleaders, the bench, the coaches, the HoF ex-players on the sidelines. Someone would have caught suspicious footage of a ballboy to bring forward. I assume that it was done off the field. Peter King mentioned that he spent a pregame with an official and noted how seriously they took watching over the gameballs. Maybe you know more about the pregame ball treatment. You appear to have inside knowledge of the procedure, please tell me where you sourced this information? You may be an expert on the subject...don't keep it secret. My position is that every NFL game has participants that are cheating on various levels. There are plenty of players using PED's, there coaches that have stolen signals, there are owners that have been in contact with other teams coaches, there are GM's that have been in contact with players approaching free agency, players that cheat on the concussion tests...on and on And I don't feel that deflating the ball rates high on the cheating scale.That's right, I don't believe that every cheat is equal. I don't think jaywalking is the equal to murder, and I don't believe deflating a ball is as serious as throwing games, or targeting a player for injury rewards. MY list looks about like this... 1. Throwing games, gambling. 2. Bribing officials 3. Conspiring to injure a player 4. Taping teams practices, bugging rooms... espionage. 5. Using PED's 6. Amplifying crowd noise through the PA 7. Negotiating with players, coaches, under contract to another team. 8. Fighting on the field ...... 15 Deflating the ball 16. Late Hits Do I believe someone from the Pats (probably Brady and his ballboy or the equipment manager. I don't think Belichick is involved) doctored the balls? I think that's most likely, but I certainly don't rule out a frame (or even a weird temperature change, I don't know the exact conditions for their balls at Gillette. They may be kept under different conditions than the opponents balls, too). The NFL is filled with guys just as driven as Belichick, that's why they have had all these kinds of rules in place...everyone is looking for an angle, and it's nothing new. Lawrence Taylor wrote about the opposition sending hookers and blow to his hotel room the night before games. Matt Bowen (ex-Bill) talks about teams sending people to scour the opposing teams hotel room for left behind game plans.That is the atmosphere that the people in the league operate in. Any negative comments from rivals and ex-players (particular from those competing for the "Best Ever" title) are hard to consider impartial, so I don't care what Mark Brunell, Jerry Rice (smuggest of all time), or Troy Aikman (America's Favorite Homer) say. So much jealousy, and pettiness there (just like the fans here). I feel a heavy fine would be enough, but if the league wants to satisfy the bloodlust of the crowd, a short suspension, or the loss of a draft pick or 2 would be fine. Disqualifying them from the Super Bowl...ridiculous. There is no proof that this was anything more than a single game transgression. In my opinion it is the officials responsibility to keep the ball regulation, and if they didn't catch them in the prior games, it's too late. There is already a fine in place for this transgression ( Starts at $25,000 someone said. That gives you a good idea where it ranks. This case is on the extreme end, but to leap from that, to "suspend the coach for a year", is way out of line) . If some want to strut around, and claim that the Pats were never that great, that is fine, but this doesn't change my opinion of them. I gain no pleasure from it. The only pleasure I will get is when the Bills stamp all over the Pats with Brady. If I find out later that EJM had deflated a ball, it won't take a bit of satisfaction away from me. It's the game within the game. Edited by HoF Watkins, Today, 03:13 AM. Edited January 24, 2015 by HoF Watkins
Mr. WEO Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Yeah, I heard it was the equipment guy, but I wonder if he was looking for it because he was tipped off by the Ravens (as I've heard) or is it just obvious by handling it. If so, what about the refs? The league said balls were under-inflated. Was it 11 of 12 and how much lower were they? I could go on and on. Just so many questions and so few answers. Second story on NBC Nightly News. Hope it stays front page because, well, they're a bunch of cheaters in my mind and the NFL only seems to respond to bad public perception. Those questions were pretty much answered a few days ago.
FireChan Posted January 24, 2015 Author Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) WHere?I have responded to the same questions about 5 times each. Here is my position.... First off, I was responding to someone's retort that the balls could be doctored on the field, using a pump pin, through sleight of hand. Go back and read it. I also mentioned that if it happened within the stadium (as opposed to the field area), there would be cameras showing activity where the balls are kept, and I definitely believe that security cameras are on by that time. If the officials are there, security cameras would be on. They are probably on 24/7. Even if they only show who enters the room where they are kept, it would at least narrow it down to those people. I never claimed that there wasn't enough time between when the officials test the balls and the game, to deflate them. I responded to the assertion that "it would only take a second" to accurately, and consistently deflate the balls during the game that quickly, and without there being some questioning of his motions at some point. There are tons of cameras on the field filming cheerleaders, the bench, the coaches, the HoF ex-players on the sidelines. Someone would have caught suspicious footage of a ballboy to bring forward. I assume that it was done off the field. Peter King mentioned that he spent a pregame with an official and noted how seriously they took watching over the gameballs. Maybe you know more about the pregame ball treatment. You appear to have inside knowledge of the procedure, please tell me where you sourced this information? You may be an expert on the subject...don't keep it secret. My position is that every NFL game has participants that are cheating on various levels. There are plenty of players using PED's, there coaches that have stolen signals, there are owners that have been in contact with other teams coaches, there are GM's that have been in contact with players approaching free agency, players that cheat on the concussion tests...on and on And I don't feel that deflating the ball rates high on the cheating scale.That's right, I don't believe that every cheat is equal. I don't think jaywalking is the equal to murder, and I don't believe deflating a ball is as serious as throwing games, or targeting a player for injury rewards. MY list looks about like this... 1. Throwing games, gambling. 2. Bribing officials 3. Conspiring to injure a player 4. Taping teams practices, bugging rooms... espionage. 5. Using PED's 6. Amplifying crowd noise through the PA 7. Negotiating with players, coaches, under contract to another team. 8. Fighting on the field ...... 15 Deflating the ball 16. Late Hits Do I believe someone from the Pats (probably Brady and his ballboy or the equipment manager. I don't think Belichick is involved) doctored the balls? I think that's most likely, but I certainly don't rule out a frame (or even a weird temperature change, I don't know the exact conditions for their balls at Gillette. They may be kept under different conditions than the opponents balls, too). The NFL is filled with guys just as driven as Belichick, that's why they have had all these kinds of rules in place...everyone is looking for an angle, and it's nothing new. Lawrence Taylor wrote about the opposition sending hookers and blow to his hotel room the night before games. Matt Bowen (ex-Bill) talks about teams sending people to scour the opposing teams hotel room for left behind game plans.That is the atmosphere that the people in the league operate in. Any negative comments from rivals and ex-players (particular from those competing for the "Best Ever" title) are hard to consider impartial, so I don't care what Mark Brunell, Jerry Rice (smuggest of all time), or Troy Aikman (America's Favorite Homer) say. So much jealousy, and pettiness there (just like the fans here). I feel a heavy fine would be enough, but if the league wants to satisfy the bloodlust of the crowd, a short suspension, or the loss of a draft pick or 2 would be fine. Disqualifying them from the Super Bowl...ridiculous. There is no proof that this was anything more than a single game transgression. In my opinion it is the officials responsibility to keep the ball regulation, and if they didn't catch them in the prior games, it's too late. There is already a fine in place for this transgression ( Starts at $25,000 someone said. That gives you a good idea where it ranks. This case is on the extreme end, but to leap from that, to "suspend the coach for a year", is way out of line) . If some want to strut around, and claim that the Pats were never that great, that is fine, but this doesn't change my opinion of them. I gain no pleasure from it. The only pleasure I will get is when the Bills stamp all over the Pats with Brady. If I find out later that EJM had deflated a ball, it won't take a bit of satisfaction away from me. It's the game within the game. Edited by HoF Watkins, Today, 03:13 AM. Right here. HoF Watkins, on 23 Jan 2015 - 5:34 PM, said: much deserved.... this is like sneaking in juiced balls or a corked bat into an mlb game. What are the penalties for those transgressions? Forfeiture? Season Suspension? A million dollar fine? Coaches fired? Player and coach suspended? Nah... Edited January 24, 2015 by FireChan
Prickly Pete Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) Right here. HoF Watkins, on 23 Jan 2015 - 5:34 PM, said: What are the penalties for those transgressions? Forfeiture? Season Suspension? A million dollar fine? Coaches fired? Player and coach suspended? Nah... They didn't suspend the coach AND player, did they? And regardless, I have made it clear REPEATEDLY, that I felt a suspension wouldn't be unreasonable. Like over, and over. (are you now going to go back, count them, and come back at me with "no, man. I got you right here...you only repeated it over once! Not "over and over"!)? Edited January 24, 2015 by HoF Watkins
FireChan Posted January 24, 2015 Author Posted January 24, 2015 They didn't suspend the coach AND player, did they? So you meant exclusively both?
Augie Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Those questions were pretty much answered a few days ago. Reported by media, not answered conclusively. I want something from the league (not that I trust them - but it might be a sign of which way this is headed). They were rather vague today. I want confirmation because I don't trust the entire process.
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The most likely guilty party in all of this is the guy handling the footballs; so Brady. Any smoking gun will, if it shows up, involve him. If it does show up, then the case is closed. If nothing shows up, the league is in a bind. Should they choose to employ the relaxed "burden of proof" that you speak of and cast blame on Brady, without full proof, the league had better prepare itself for a defamation suit. Brady has ample $ to afford hiring a who's who team of the hottest lawyers in existence to battle things out in court. Faced with the very real possibility of losing, I can't imagine the league would touch this with a 10 foot pole. I'm sure there's something in player contracts about agreeing to abide by rulings by the league. It would only make sense for the league to proactively protect itself from those kinds of lawsuits from players.
NoSaint Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I'm sure there's something in player contracts about agreeing to abide by rulings by the league. It would only make sense for the league to proactively protect itself from those kinds of lawsuits from players. Mixed bag- courts try to stay out but they also won't let the nfl do whatever they please
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