BigPappy Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 How come no one, ever, wants to say that most likely this trade was Ralphs call. Ralph made the call to draft him, and Ralph most likely made the call to trade him. With OJ being associated with his team, and PacMan stuff going on then, and Goddell coming in with his code of conduct etc... Ralph did not want this guy on HIS team.... why do people refuse to believe this was not a football trade....Ralph wanted this guy gone...and i agree with him. As much as I would like to think that this scenario is possible, it is also HIGHLY unlikely. Ralph was so out of touch with this team his last 10 years, he wasn't making any player decisions. There is no way! Now, i have no proof to back that up, but there is no way in God's green earth that you could prove that he wanted him gone either. BigPappy
Lurker Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 back .. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/forum/40-the-stadium-wall-archive/
metzelaars_lives Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Okay, so I can give a pass on the Mike Williams pick. But no way on McCargo. Colossal strech or not, it's still a blunder by the draft guru's at one Bills drive. BigPappy Of course McCargo was a horrible pick. No one would deny that.
plenzmd1 Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 possibly. ultimately, every move can be traced back to wilson. but i believe the proximate cause was nix. he was/is a buffoon. the fact that he couldn't produce a team that leveraged lynch's considerable skills and used a top draft choice to take another low yielding rb shoulda got him fired long ago. as it is, he's just now being shown the door. ridiculous. Agree on Nix ....no argument what so ever on that point As much as I would like to think that this scenario is possible, it is also HIGHLY unlikely. Ralph was so out of touch with this team his last 10 years, he wasn't making any player decisions. There is no way! Now, i have no proof to back that up, but there is no way in God's green earth that you could prove that he wanted him gone either. BigPappy Agree on the prove point...but lets not forget it was widely, and i mean widely reported that Lynch was Ralphs pick 100%...he made the call. And Ralph was still seemed to be in good health in 2010...i believe he was the guy who hired Gailey..but i could be wrong on that , could have been Russ and Nix's call
CodeMonkey Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 You are right on as you often are. The big rumor was that the Saints were reportedly willing to give up a 3rd round pick. So if that's what people want to complain about- that we perhaps could've gotten a 3rd round pick instead of a 4th- then that is a fair argument. But to argue that he hadn't worn out his welcome here is showing that you have a very short memory. Some are complaining that Seattle saw that the Bills were going to dump Lynch for off-field reasons. They saw more on-field potential than the Bills did. Smelled the desperation and proceeded to rob the Bills blind and steal Lynch for a 4th. It can be theorized that Lynch wouldn't have gotten as good in Buffalo, or he would have run over another hooker and gotten suspended, or any other potential negative thing you can think of. None of which can be proved or disproved. What is fact and cannot be refuted is that the Hawks got a game changing RB that has been instrumental in their success, including a ring and maybe another, for a 4th round pick and that the Bills were the other party in that trade and have to be considered the losers in that deal by any measure.
JohnC Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I've been thinking that is a distinct possibility. It will depend on if they sign someone like Ingram in FA. They will have a between the tackles type of RB on their roster next year that is not currently there. I'm uncomfortable in saying it because Fred Jackson embodies everything that is right with the game but it was obvious to me that he is a fading player. He knows where to run but he has little burst left in his game to break off some large gains.
metzelaars_lives Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'm uncomfortable in saying it because Fred Jackson embodies everything that is right with the game but it was obvious to me that he is a fading player. He knows where to run but he has little burst left in his game to break off some large gains. You do realize that Jackson is five years older than Lynch, right? Jackson is about to turn 34. Lynch will be lucky if he's not already a vegetable by 34 the way he runs.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'm uncomfortable in saying it because Fred Jackson embodies everything that is right with the game but it was obvious to me that he is a fading player. He knows where to run but he has little burst left in his game to break off some large gains. I hear you, but I don't think it can be overlooked that Fred started to look "slow" after he hurt his groin and was playing on one leg for the second half of the season. Earlier in the year he looked more than capable. Of course, Father Time is undefeated, so the end is closer than ever for Fred, but I'm not certain it's here yet.
JohnC Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 You do realize that Jackson is five years older than Lynch, right? Jackson is about to turn 34. Lynch will be lucky if he's not already a vegetable by 34 the way he runs. That's my point. Jackson's tank is empty. I made no reference to Lynch in my comment regarding Jackson.
Gugny Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Marshawn Lynch and Fred Jackson were both Buffalo Bills for the 2007, 2008, 2009 seasons and through 4 games of the 2010 season. Total yards from scrimmage during those games: Jackson - 2898 Lynch - 3435 The only reason I'm writing this is because I keep reading, in this thread and in the Shoutbox, about how Fred was the better/more productive back during the Fred and Marshawn years. It's not even a contest that Lynch has always been the better back and that Lynch will continue to be the better back and that Lynch will end up having a career way better than Jackson's. Yes ... Fred's the better person and in the real world, that means a hell of a lot more than being a good RB. But being the better person doesn't move the chains; nor does it put points on the board. Lynch and Spiller are both better than Fred, in my opinion. Yet, in 2016, Fred will be the only one of them still here. But hey ... he's a good guy.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 The OP may be too young to remember but way back in 2010 when we made the trade, it was blatantly obvious to anyone who watched Bills games that Lynch was the 3rd best running back on the team. No one was clamoring for Lynch to get more carries in that backfield. He was completely expendable so they traded him for a 4th round pick, which the way people talk about mid round draft picks on this website, was seen as a great deal at the time. If there can be any complaint by anyone, it's that the Bills could have MAYBE squeezed a third round pick from another team. Chris Hairston, for what it's worth, has not proven to suck, has been good enough to make the roster every year and in limited duty, has actually looked capable at tackle. Is Chris Hairston better than Marshawn Lynch? Of course not. But there is way too much revisionist's history going around here lately. Bottom line, at the time of the trade, it was a fine trade and no one was complaining about it. His heart clearly was not in it in Buffalo and he clearly decided to take it to another level Seattle. Who could have seen that coming? Besides the OP and half of you, of course. Agree. You can even go back to the TBD archive and see numerous threads, complaining about Lynch his last two years here. He was really bad. Even putting stats aside, he runs totally differently in Seattle. He is about a thousand times more decisive and quick to the hole now. Here, he was constantly dancing and shuffling. This is why Jackson was so much more obviously better. He made one cut, hit the hole, and got 4+ yards. Lynch bears to resemblance to the back he was with us. I think even he has admitted as much, indicating that he didn't study when he was here.
dave mcbride Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Agree. You can even go back to the TBD archive and see numerous threads, complaining about Lynch his last two years here. He was really bad. Even putting stats aside, he runs totally differently in Seattle. He is about a thousand times more decisive and quick to the hole now. Here, he was constantly dancing and shuffling. This is why Jackson was so much more obviously better. He made one cut, hit the hole, and got 4+ yards. Lynch bears to resemblance to the back he was with us. I think even he has admitted as much, indicating that he didn't study when he was here. Whenever lynch was in the backfield in 09, defenses stuffed the box and typically hit him at the LOS or behind it. He actually led the league in percentage of rushing yards gained after first contact (75 percent). They didn't utilize him effectively as a receiver even though he was a fabulous receiver at Cal; his usage by 09 was extremely predictable. Edited January 19, 2015 by dave mcbride
prissythecat Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Marshawn Lynch and Fred Jackson were both Buffalo Bills for the 2007, 2008, 2009 seasons and through 4 games of the 2010 season. Total yards from scrimmage during those games: Jackson - 2898 Lynch - 3435 The only reason I'm writing this is because I keep reading, in this thread and in the Shoutbox, about how Fred was the better/more productive back during the Fred and Marshawn years. It's not even a contest that Lynch has always been the better back and that Lynch will continue to be the better back and that Lynch will end up having a career way better than Jackson's. Yes ... Fred's the better person and in the real world, that means a hell of a lot more than being a good RB. But being the better person doesn't move the chains; nor does it put points on the board. Lynch and Spiller are both better than Fred, in my opinion. Yet, in 2016, Fred will be the only one of them still here. But hey ... he's a good guy. During Lynch's last 1.5 seasons with Bills , wasn't he averaging less than 3.5 ypc while Fred was around 4.5 ypc? 3.5 ypc is terrible. That's why Total yardage is an incomplete picture for an RB. Have to see how productive he is for each carry .
Gugny Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 During Lynch's last 1.5 seasons with Bills , wasn't he averaging less than 3.5 ypc while Fred was around 4.5 ypc? 3.5 ypc is terrible. That's why Total yardage is an incomplete picture for an RB. Have to see how productive he is for each carry . He actually averaged 3.8 at that time, but yes .. FJ was 4.5. I'm not trying to paint a complete picture with the total yards from scrimmage. The stats can be twisted, turned and manipulated any way you choose ... Lynch will be better than Jackson all day, every day, no matter what. I'm not saying Fred ever sucked. I'm just saying he's never been better than Lynch. Not even close.
Proteus Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Lynch/Jackson could have been an unstoppable duo with a good offensive line and good coaching. Unforatnately we have not had both those things at the same time in 20 years. Nix was just terrible. Taking any RB 9th overall with as many holes as the Bills had and those two on your roster is inexcusible. Also I know everyone had a chance at Gronk and Wilson but not eveyone selected McCargo and Graham instead. Both guys that left the pundits saying it was quite a reach and the fans saying who? Also two guys that ended up being total busts and pretty much produced nothing at all. He was such a bad GM. Edited January 19, 2015 by Proteus
DDD Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Sorry but Nix traded up to not grab Russell Wilson but TJ Graham... Biggest mistake in Bills history. He will never be surpassed after a move like that. Let's not forget the drafting of Terrell Troup instead of Rob Gronkowski. Buddy Nix...the gift that keeps on giving.
cale Posted January 20, 2015 Author Posted January 20, 2015 Lynch/Jackson could have been an unstoppable duo with a good offensive line and good coaching. Unforatnately we have not had both those things at the same time in 20 years. Nix was just terrible. Taking any RB 9th overall with as many holes as the Bills had and those two on your roster is inexcusible. Also I know everyone had a chance at Gronk and Wilson but not eveyone selected McCargo and Graham instead. Both guys that left the pundits saying it was quite a reach and the fans saying who? Also two guys that ended up being total busts and pretty much produced nothing at all. He was such a bad GM. Yet when the alarm was raised here, how many on this board and elsewhere - in spite of the terrible track record of the front office - said, "shut up - they scout. They know what they're doing..." Crazy, how many people went along with the insanity. Blind loyalty is just - well - blind. Now that the collective fear of the Bills moving has faded, maybe we'll hold this organization more accountable in their personnel and strategic decisions. C
AmishRifle Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I asked for the justification for trading Lynch during a fan forum with John Guy, Director of Player Personnel during this time. His answer centered on the off field problems with Lynch and he seemed to imply that the Buffalo Bills and the NFL security folks knew that he was digging deeper into the drug bin while he was in Buffalo. The off field incidents coupled with the suspected/confirmed drug use made the decision to trade him easy. This is conjecture on my part but I really think that the Bills believed he would be suspended by the league for a long period of time if he stayed in Buffalo. Honestly, I think the trade saved Marshawn's career.
machine gun kelly Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 It all begins with the offensive line. OJ Simpson was garbage behind a bad offensive line. If the openings aren't there, it doesn't matter who is carrying the ball. The Bills over the last 12-15 years think you can build a top OL with journeymen and low draft picks and free agents. It doesn't work. The Bills need to prioritize the OL and suddenly average RB's become stars and average QB's look good. Exactly, and that was Rex's comments as he leaves for the Senior Bowl. we can find Guards, and if we draft well, we can get a good Guard in the 2nd round.
ganesh Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Another thought is that Gailey forced the issue by wanting a "Scat Back" and picking Spiller in the 1st round. Between Spiller, Lynch and Freddie, Lynch was going to be the odd man out. The biggest mistake Buddy did was in drafting Spiller.
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