Mikie2times Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 After we signed Rex Ryan, all my attention shifted to OC. Ryan has never developed a franchise QB and he won’t all of a sudden develop into a sharp offensive mind. What does Ryan bring to the table? Ryan is the best defensive mind in the NFL, which is certainly valuable enough to warrant a HC position. Still, with no QB, his detractors have a point, is the best defensive coach in the league the right fit for a team that needs so much offensive help? A lot of discussion from the introductory Press conference laid out the path this team will take. Ryan said he appreciated Brian Billicks approach, basically said here are the keys; go do what you do best. He was hands off and allowed Ryan to grow the defense under his direction. He said he believes in that same philosophy. The Bills liked Roman, they liked him enough to interview him for the HC. Over and over we heard Ryan say how in sync he is with Roman. Ryan kept saying he wanted to build a bully, Pegula referenced Roman making the statement of being a “nightmare” to play. Hand and hand with the Rex Ryan approach to football is a power running game. It's clear to me Ryan has no problem giving Roman the keys to the offense in the same way Billick gave Ryan the keys to the defense and that's exactly what I expect him to do. I watched a lot of Stanford when Greg Roman was the offensive coordinator. Then you follow Roman to San Francisco and what he implemented there. Stanford ran a pro style run heavy offense under Roman. I often remember 2 and 3 TE sets, a ton of eye formation. They just pounded the ball repeatedly. The 49ers ran a lot of similar personal groupings as far as FB’s and multiple TE’s, but they would often split those players out and motion them into a more normal alignment like the eye formation. Roman’s offensive line concepts are regarded as some of the more complex in the NFL. His run block action simulates spread concepts, but often times manifest themselves into power rushing concepts. We saw the 49ers go to a lot of read option and Pistol formations. In one of his press conferences a few years ago prior to the Super Bowl, Roman glowingly speaks about the Pistol offense and its versatility. What started as a question about Romans ability to develop a franchise QB (this word we keep hearing all the time), ended in a completely different direction. No, I don't believe Roman is best at developing a franchise QB, at the least, QB passing is not his strong suit. That said, he doesn't need to develop a franchise QB to get to the level we want to achieve. Kap is not a franchise QB in a traditional sense, Romans system made his skill set into a very productive QB, so productive it gave the appearance of being a potential franchise guy. But Roman does not care about QB development in the way most OCs cling to it as life or death and having to be thru the air. He values production, namely ground production. He reduces the reads a QB has, he runs an inordinate amount of times, and has a scheme that provides better angled blocking assignments vs defenders compared to his counterparts. Essentially, he provides the most user friendly QB system possible and in that reduces the need for the QB to have to be elite in the passing game. As Ryan is the zen of defense, Roman is one of the top zens of running. Just as Ryan pointed out in the presser, the two have such a perfect blend of style. So perfect, it’s my opinion a franchise QB is not required, nor will that be the profile of this team. We will focus on being the best punch you in the face team on defense, which is a given, and on offense we will do the same. For me that’s exciting. Franchise QB or not, this staff seems to be completely united in playing a demoralizing brand of football. Something I have seen people begging for years for on these forums.
Solomon Grundy Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 IDK, after reading the Mark Brunell article in the BN, he mentioned how he was brought in by Rex to help tutor Sanchez but the management destroyed Rex's efforts by not surrounding Sanchez with talent. The Jets, when they went to 2 AFC Championship games, had a strong running game and dominating defense but had no receivers. They brought in an aging Santonio Holmes and struck out on Stephen Hill.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Coaching is important. We all get it. But only, say 10% of what is important to find a franchise QB. 90% of it is the QB himself, his skills and his drive and his line and his experience and his receivers. Pete Carroll and Darrel Bevel would not make Russell Wilson out of Geno Smith. Chances are extremely high that Greg Roman and David Lee, for all intents and purposes, would have made Russell Wilson into Russell Wilson, and Pete Carroll and Darrel Bevel would have made Geno Smith into Geno Smith.
hondo in seattle Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Good post, though many of the same points have already been made in other threads. I will add this - which is also old news - Roman did a really good job with Alex Smith.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Good post, though many of the same points have already been made in other threads. I will add this - which is also old news - Roman did a really good job with Alex Smith. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/sports/football/greg-roman-is-the-49ers-quarterback-whisperer.html?_r=0 "Roman is the quarterback whisperer."
Mikie2times Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 Smooth: Not happy with the signing of David Lee, thought we could have done better. Skycap: I think we need more focus on a TE and some offensive lineman, maybe a bruising running back, all realistic things we can add vs so much Franchise QB focus, something that is unlikely to be obtained based on what we have to obtain it this season. I think we could add another mobile late round QB. Kelly: I agree, it's the player first and foremost, but when you don't have the player I think some coaches are better at making it look like you do vs others. I feel Roman is that guy. Perhaps not the best developer of passing QB's, but his system is phenomenal at making average QB's play better. Hondo: So much has been posted, I'm sure my points have been covered. I still see literally everything from the press focused on franchise QB which is why I wanted to speak my peace. I think Smith did well with Roman because I think any QB improves tenfold with a running game. Throw Kap in, Roman was able to focus on his incredible mobility. He also got the same benefits Smith did by just having a very good ground game.
OntarioRV Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Fyi, Roman was never OC at Stanford... After we signed Rex Ryan, all my attention shifted to OC. Ryan has never developed a franchise QB and he won’t all of a sudden develop into a sharp offensive mind. What does Ryan bring to the table? Ryan is the best defensive mind in the NFL, which is certainly valuable enough to warrant a HC position. Still, with no QB, his detractors have a point, is the best defensive coach in the league the right fit for a team that needs so much offensive help? A lot of discussion from the introductory Press conference laid out the path this team will take. Ryan said he appreciated Brian Billicks approach, basically said here are the keys; go do what you do best. He was hands off and allowed Ryan to grow the defense under his direction. He said he believes in that same philosophy. The Bills liked Roman, they liked him enough to interview him for the HC. Over and over we heard Ryan say how in sync he is with Roman. Ryan kept saying he wanted to build a bully, Pegula referenced Roman making the statement of being a “nightmare” to play. Hand and hand with the Rex Ryan approach to football is a power running game. It's clear to me Ryan has no problem giving Roman the keys to the offense in the same way Billick gave Ryan the keys to the defense and that's exactly what I expect him to do. I watched a lot of Stanford when Greg Roman was the offensive coordinator. Then you follow Roman to San Francisco and what he implemented there. Stanford ran a pro style run heavy offense under Roman. I often remember 2 and 3 TE sets, a ton of eye formation. They just pounded the ball repeatedly. The 49ers ran a lot of similar personal groupings as far as FB’s and multiple TE’s, but they would often split those players out and motion them into a more normal alignment like the eye formation. Roman’s offensive line concepts are regarded as some of the more complex in the NFL. His run block action simulates spread concepts, but often times manifest themselves into power rushing concepts. We saw the 49ers go to a lot of read option and Pistol formations. In one of his press conferences a few years ago prior to the Super Bowl, Roman glowingly speaks about the Pistol offense and its versatility. What started as a question about Romans ability to develop a franchise QB (this word we keep hearing all the time), ended in a completely different direction. No, I don't believe Roman is best at developing a franchise QB, at the least, QB passing is not his strong suit. That said, he doesn't need to develop a franchise QB to get to the level we want to achieve. Kap is not a franchise QB in a traditional sense, Romans system made his skill set into a very productive QB, so productive it gave the appearance of being a potential franchise guy. But Roman does not care about QB development in the way most OCs cling to it as life or death and having to be thru the air. He values production, namely ground production. He reduces the reads a QB has, he runs an inordinate amount of times, and has a scheme that provides better angled blocking assignments vs defenders compared to his counterparts. Essentially, he provides the most user friendly QB system possible and in that reduces the need for the QB to have to be elite in the passing game. As Ryan is the zen of defense, Roman is one of the top zens of running. Just as Ryan pointed out in the presser, the two have such a perfect blend of style. So perfect, it’s my opinion a franchise QB is not required, nor will that be the profile of this team. We will focus on being the best punch you in the face team on defense, which is a given, and on offense we will do the same. For me that’s exciting. Franchise QB or not, this staff seems to be completely united in playing a demoralizing brand of football. Something I have seen people begging for years for on these forums.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Kelly: I agree, it's the player first and foremost, but when you don't have the player I think some coaches are better at making it look like you do vs others. I feel Roman is that guy. Perhaps not the best developer of passing QB's, but his system is phenomenal at making average QB's play better. Hondo: So much has been posted, I'm sure my points have been covered. I still see literally everything from the press focused on franchise QB which is why I wanted to speak my peace. I think Smith did well with Roman because I think any QB improves tenfold with a running game. Throw Kap in, Roman was able to focus on his incredible mobility. He also got the same benefits Smith did by just having a very good ground game. Smith had Frank Gore for six full years before Roman got there. Gore's second season was his absolute best, four years before Roman. They almost always had a decent or good run game with Smith, he was just horrible. Then Harbaugh and Roman got ahold of him. This is going against my own post, that it's mostly the QB himself. I would say that Smith is an exception. They made him a different player by putting him in a good position to succeed. But then again, he always had the talent. He was the first overall pick. That was likely the difference. Fyi, Roman was never OC at Stanford... There are conflicting reports. This article said he was. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2013/09/19/andrew-luck-jim-harbaugh-stanford-49ers-colin-kaepernick/2837115/ His official title was Associate Head Coach when Luck was there.
HOUSE Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 I am out to buy a dog tonight....in the morning , I kick it
Mikie2times Posted January 18, 2015 Author Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Your right, he wasn't. In one interview I saw, he said he had been waiting for an OC gig to open up while he was taking some lay low time coaching High School. Then he said Harbaugh contacted him, which is when he went to Stanford. I assumed that OC gig had indeed been what he signed on for. Still I wouldn't dismiss his work at Stanford, I assume he played a big role in the offense seeing that Harbaugh felt fit to bring him from a non OC college role to a NFL OC role. Edited January 18, 2015 by KzooMike
Kelly the Dog Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Your right, he wasn't. In one interview I saw, he said he had been waiting for an OC gig to open up while he was taking some lay low time coaching High School. Then he said Harbaugh contacted him, which is when he went to Stanford. I assumed that OC gig had indeed been what he signed on for. Still I wouldn't dismiss his work at Stanford, I assume he played a big role in the offense seeing that Harbaugh felt fit to bring him from a non OC college role to a NFL OC role. I have looked at a lot of articles recently. He played a significant role. His last title was actually "associate head coach / assistant head coach offense / tight ends / offensive tackles coach." He was also an NFL assistant for 13 years before Stanford. http://blogs.mercurynews.com/49ers/2011/01/14/49ers-add-stanford-assistant-greg-roman-to-coaching-staff/
BuffaloATL Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 Coaching is important. We all get it. But only, say 10% of what is important to find a franchise QB. 90% of it is the QB himself, his skills and his drive and his line and his experience and his receivers. Pete Carroll and Darrel Bevel would not make Russell Wilson out of Geno Smith. Chances are extremely high that Greg Roman and David Lee, for all intents and purposes, would have made Russell Wilson into Russell Wilson, and Pete Carroll and Darrel Bevel would have made Geno Smith into Geno Smith. This. The whole idea of "developing a QB" doesn't really exist at the pro level. They either have it or they don't. That's it.
Peter Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/sports/football/greg-roman-is-the-49ers-quarterback-whisperer.html?_r=0"Roman is the quarterback whisperer." Nice article.
CardinalScotts Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 well maths in your favor much like a better chance a coach will have a losing record in his career over a winning one. There are 6 quarterbacks who are above the rest Luck guys is 25 and is fantastic Rothlisberger will be on old 33 next year highly unlike he plays late into his 30, had a fantastic year in my opinion everything considered one of his best Brees is 36 has thrown the ball 650+ times 7 of the last 8 years which puts up huge fantasy numbers also considering the division pass defense alone is historically bad point is he's coming to a close as well 25-23 last three years Manning will be 39 next season and should probably retire, no longer physically elite his arm strength is way down even two years ago he lost his fastball...maybe 1 more year maybe not Romo will be 35 next year with a bad back- some don't consider him elite, at the least he's darn good- fantasy numbers aside he has a great situation 435 attempts this year compare that with Brees- great line, great running attack small window but should finish strong Brady will be 37 next year and he's not showing a lot of signs but even at best he plays til what 40? the great qb's are coming to an end in the next 3-4 years and the league is left with Luck no one else is near elite
Kelly the Dog Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 well maths in your favor much like a better chance a coach will have a losing record in his career over a winning one. There are 6 quarterbacks who are above the rest Luck guys is 25 and is fantastic Rothlisberger will be on old 33 next year highly unlike he plays late into his 30, had a fantastic year in my opinion everything considered one of his best Brees is 36 has thrown the ball 650+ times 7 of the last 8 years which puts up huge fantasy numbers also considering the division pass defense alone is historically bad point is he's coming to a close as well 25-23 last three years Manning will be 39 next season and should probably retire, no longer physically elite his arm strength is way down even two years ago he lost his fastball...maybe 1 more year maybe not Romo will be 35 next year with a bad back- some don't consider him elite, at the least he's darn good- fantasy numbers aside he has a great situation 435 attempts this year compare that with Brees- great line, great running attack small window but should finish strong Brady will be 37 next year and he's not showing a lot of signs but even at best he plays til what 40? the great qb's are coming to an end in the next 3-4 years and the league is left with Luck no one else is near elite Rodgers and Wilson are both great.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 After we signed Rex Ryan, all my attention shifted to OC. Ryan has never developed a franchise QB and he won’t all of a sudden develop into a sharp offensive mind. What does Ryan bring to the table? Ryan is the best defensive mind in the NFL, which is certainly valuable enough to warrant a HC position. Still, with no QB, his detractors have a point, is the best defensive coach in the league the right fit for a team that needs so much offensive help? A lot of discussion from the introductory Press conference laid out the path this team will take. Ryan said he appreciated Brian Billicks approach, basically said here are the keys; go do what you do best. He was hands off and allowed Ryan to grow the defense under his direction. He said he believes in that same philosophy. The Bills liked Roman, they liked him enough to interview him for the HC. Over and over we heard Ryan say how in sync he is with Roman. Ryan kept saying he wanted to build a bully, Pegula referenced Roman making the statement of being a “nightmare” to play. Hand and hand with the Rex Ryan approach to football is a power running game. It's clear to me Ryan has no problem giving Roman the keys to the offense in the same way Billick gave Ryan the keys to the defense and that's exactly what I expect him to do. I watched a lot of Stanford when Greg Roman was the offensive coordinator. Then you follow Roman to San Francisco and what he implemented there. Stanford ran a pro style run heavy offense under Roman. I often remember 2 and 3 TE sets, a ton of eye formation. They just pounded the ball repeatedly. The 49ers ran a lot of similar personal groupings as far as FB’s and multiple TE’s, but they would often split those players out and motion them into a more normal alignment like the eye formation. Roman’s offensive line concepts are regarded as some of the more complex in the NFL. His run block action simulates spread concepts, but often times manifest themselves into power rushing concepts. We saw the 49ers go to a lot of read option and Pistol formations. In one of his press conferences a few years ago prior to the Super Bowl, Roman glowingly speaks about the Pistol offense and its versatility. What started as a question about Romans ability to develop a franchise QB (this word we keep hearing all the time), ended in a completely different direction. No, I don't believe Roman is best at developing a franchise QB, at the least, QB passing is not his strong suit. That said, he doesn't need to develop a franchise QB to get to the level we want to achieve. Kap is not a franchise QB in a traditional sense, Romans system made his skill set into a very productive QB, so productive it gave the appearance of being a potential franchise guy. But Roman does not care about QB development in the way most OCs cling to it as life or death and having to be thru the air. He values production, namely ground production. He reduces the reads a QB has, he runs an inordinate amount of times, and has a scheme that provides better angled blocking assignments vs defenders compared to his counterparts. Essentially, he provides the most user friendly QB system possible and in that reduces the need for the QB to have to be elite in the passing game. As Ryan is the zen of defense, Roman is one of the top zens of running. Just as Ryan pointed out in the presser, the two have such a perfect blend of style. So perfect, it’s my opinion a franchise QB is not required, nor will that be the profile of this team. We will focus on being the best punch you in the face team on defense, which is a given, and on offense we will do the same. For me that’s exciting. Franchise QB or not, this staff seems to be completely united in playing a demoralizing brand of football. Something I have seen people begging for years for on these forums. Roman developed Luck, what ur deal bro!
The Wiz Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Rodgers and Wilson are both great. I'll give you Rodgers but Wilson is a product of a system built for him. How many times has Rodgers put the team/game on his shoulders and won compared to Wilson. I know Wilson is great in that offense, but he's not a QB comparable to Rodgers. Stats don't tell anything but Wilson hardly ever throws for over 300 yards (which is apparently the staple of a franchise QB at TBD to some). If Rodgers is under 300, they lost the game. Edited January 18, 2015 by The Wiz
boyst Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 I have faith we're getting a QB. I had truly believed it was Peyton Manning, that we had inside knowledge and connections that said he was going to be released or cut or traded. But, looking at it more, can't be so certain but I think there is a chance. Now, Big Ben? I think that's as likely. He'll be cut, traded or have to redo his contract. It's huge, but worth it to whatever team who has him.
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