Sandusky's boss to be rewarded his wins back

[JimBob2232]

Let me see if I have this straight:

 

Joe Paterno was forced into allowing Sandusky to stay on campus.

 

Joe Paterno was powerless to stand up to the PSU board.

 

Joe Paterno forgot to mention to the board that the guy he hated was molesting scores of kids in the PSU showers.

 

Sorry but no.

 

The true unfortunate thing is that there are STILL so many people that want to convince themselves that their heroes, JP and the PSU program, are what they purported to be, even after is has been demonstrated they are not. Yay, wins. That'll convince 'em. GTFO

There is no winning these arguments. But in the sake of getting facts right...

 

1) Joe Paterno and the PSU board were always at odds. If this were a "normal" coaching relationship, he would have been fired many times. They couldn't fire him because the alumni and lifeblood of the school would have gone crazy. Joe Paterno was an icon, but he didnt have much power over the board...in fact, the board resented him...ALOT.

 

2) Of all the shower abuse victims, only one had any outside witness. On that particular count, Sandusky was acquitted of "involuntary deviate sexual intercourse"

 

3) Joe Paterno DID report it to the athletic director (Curley), Vice President Schultz (who oversaw the campus police department), who in turn told spanier (who himself was a victim of child abuse) and countless others. What kind of a coverup plan involves telling everyone what is going on?

 

4) it bears repeating again...after 1993 Sandusky DID NOT work for Paterno, and I don't believe I have ever read an account of him and paterno being on speaking terms after that point.

 

I truly and honestly believe that Mcquerey came to paterno with what he saw. paterno did know what to do, and punted it to his bosses to deal with. There was an internal investigation, and because of Jerry positive reputation, long history with childrens charities, a failed state ivestigation for a similar offense a few years prior, and the minimal evidence presented from mcqueary, PSU leadership decided to tell him not to use the campus facilities for his charitable efforts. I honestly believe they missed the smoking gun...all of them...including paterno.. But I refuse to buy the story that this was all to protect the football program, and making it all about the football program hides the fact that child abuse awareness is a significant issue in this country.

[/dev/null]

At this point, what difference does it make?

[boyst]

There is no winning these arguments. But in the sake of getting facts right...

 

1) Joe Paterno and the PSU board were always at odds. If this were a "normal" coaching relationship, he would have been fired many times. They couldn't fire him because the alumni and lifeblood of the school would have gone crazy. Joe Paterno was an icon, but he didnt have much power over the board...in fact, the board resented him...ALOT.

 

2) Of all the shower abuse victims, only one had any outside witness. On that particular count, Sandusky was acquitted of "involuntary deviate sexual intercourse"

 

3) Joe Paterno DID report it to the athletic director (Curley), Vice President Schultz (who oversaw the campus police department), who in turn told spanier (who himself was a victim of child abuse) and countless others. What kind of a coverup plan involves telling everyone what is going on?

 

4) it bears repeating again...after 1993 Sandusky DID NOT work for Paterno, and I don't believe I have ever read an account of him and paterno being on speaking terms after that point.

 

I truly and honestly believe that Mcquerey came to paterno with what he saw. paterno did know what to do, and punted it to his bosses to deal with. There was an internal investigation, and because of Jerry positive reputation, long history with childrens charities, a failed state ivestigation for a similar offense a few years prior, and the minimal evidence presented from mcqueary, PSU leadership decided to tell him not to use the campus facilities for his charitable efforts. I honestly believe they missed the smoking gun...all of them...including paterno.. But I refuse to buy the story that this was all to protect the football program, and making it all about the football program hides the fact that child abuse awareness is a significant issue in this country.

Shhh! Don't let the hysterics like 4mer, John Adams and all of Nancy Grace's #1 fans deter you. They're right, this was abominable and Joe Paterno should die twice and burn in Hell for doing all of the nothing he did wrong because he should have somehow done even more that was well beyond his powers and told the police himself, marching right to the same police that charged Sandusky and also overlooked other crimes against Sandusky. Hell, Paterno should have went to the President of the America and the King of the World to get this right.

 

4mer, John Adams, the like... you're ridiculous. Go back to watching soccer, maybe there you can enjoy all of the petty drama and diva culture you embrace.

[John Adams]

 

3) Joe Paterno DID report it to the athletic director (Curley), Vice President Schultz (who oversaw the campus police department), who in turn told spanier (who himself was a victim of child abuse) and countless others. What kind of a coverup plan involves telling everyone what is going on?

 

 

 

It wasn't countless others. You counted them. And what was his action after he told the ones you counted? Well, he did what was important and PSU: Turned a blind eye and kept on winning.

 

This is less about Paterno and has always been a lot more about the culture that encouraged the cover-up. The culture of Penn State football that refused to accept a punishment (taking away wins) that paled in comparison to the crimes it bred, so it sued the NCAA to get wins restored. And the glee that has greeted the restored wins (because that's what matters) and the renewed effort to put up the statue of the man who more than anyone embodied the culture.

 

This latest chapter shows that what happened could easily happen again and than the alum and school have not changed even a little.

 

WE ARE SHAMELESS.

[boyst]

 

It wasn't countless others. You counted them. And what was his action after he told the ones you counted? Well, he did what was important and PSU: Turned a blind eye and kept on winning.

 

This is less about Paterno and has always been a lot more about the culture that encouraged the cover-up. The culture of Penn State football that refused to accept a punishment (taking away wins) that paled in comparison to the crimes it bred, so it sued the NCAA to get wins restored. And the glee that has greeted the restored wins (because that's what matters) and the renewed effort to put up the statue of the man who more than anyone embodied the culture.

 

This latest chapter shows that what happened could easily happen again and than the alum and school have not changed even a little.

 

WE ARE SHAMELESS.

why do you hate Penn State so much? couldn't get in or something? jeez, i've never seen someone have such a vendetta against a school like this.

 

inb4 you say your distaste is for those who enabled Sandusky, etc.

[4merper4mer]

 

 

4mer, John Adams, the like... you're ridiculous. Go back to watching soccer, maybe there you can enjoy all of the petty drama and diva culture you embrace.

 

 

I have nothing against Penn State in particular at all. If the identical set of events happened at Ohio State or anywhere else I would feel the same way.

 

 

Personally, I think it is ridiculous that people care so much about football W-L records that they have to scream from the mountaintops that everything was unfair for poor powerless Joe Paterno and that he is some sort of victim. He was not powerless and he was not a victim. The whole program, which he headed up, was fertile ground for a disgusting series of incidents spanning decades.

 

I realize that there is no convincing people that seem to value football more than they disdain the things that happened there. I generally like your posts Boyst, but you're wrong about this. I don't care if I'm the only one that thinks it and I don't care if you think I'm ridiculous. There is no denying that the culture at Penn State still values football so much that its program must be unscathed even when it fosters such heinous acts. DO NOT CHANGE THE CULTURE.

 

I don't care if I'm in the majority, the minority or in the .0001%. I don't care. The insular society surrounding PSU football was sick, and recent events show that it is still sick. It doesn't matter if 99.9999999999999% people think it is healthy; it isn't. It's sick.

[boyst]

 

 

I have nothing against Penn State in particular at all. If the identical set of events happened at Ohio State or anywhere else I would feel the same way.

 

 

Personally, I think it is ridiculous that people care so much about football W-L records that they have to scream from the mountaintops that everything was unfair for poor powerless Joe Paterno and that he is some sort of victim. He was not powerless and he was not a victim. The whole program, which he headed up, was fertile ground for a disgusting series of incidents spanning decades.

 

I realize that there is no convincing people that seem to value football more than they disdain the things that happened there. I generally like your posts Boyst, but you're wrong about this. I don't care if I'm the only one that thinks it and I don't care if you think I'm ridiculous. There is no denying that the culture at Penn State still values football so much that its program must be unscathed even when it fosters such heinous acts. DO NOT CHANGE THE CULTURE.

 

I don't care if I'm in the majority, the minority or in the .0001%. I don't care. The insular society surrounding PSU football was sick, and recent events show that it is still sick. It doesn't matter if 99.9999999999999% people think it is healthy; it isn't. It's sick.

I think you half a small majority that actually care about the W-L record. I realize that Paterno isn't a Saint but he did win those football games and did very good things for the community and college sports.

 

What I cannot fathom is that there are people out there who want the football team to suffer when the program is the only opportunity for many students to get the level of education (if any education at all) that Penn State affords. Sure, a dozen PSU players are there to just play ball and two dozen are just there taking courses in under water basket weaving but there are several dozen more that are there truly doing good for their community and making the most of this opportunity and they do not deserve to suffer for something they had no part of that happened when they were just in primary school. There are a lot of people out there who have been affected by the school, program and Paterno.

 

By all accounts Paterno was a very good man and i have known some friends that have had close relationships with the guy and cannot say a bad word about him.

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

I think you half a small majority that actually care about the W-L record. I realize that Paterno isn't a Saint but he did win those football games and did very good things for the community and college sports.

 

What I cannot fathom is that there are people out there who want the football team to suffer when the program is the only opportunity for many students to get the level of education (if any education at all) that Penn State affords. Sure, a dozen PSU players are there to just play ball and two dozen are just there taking courses in under water basket weaving but there are several dozen more that are there truly doing good for their community and making the most of this opportunity and they do not deserve to suffer for something they had no part of that happened when they were just in primary school. There are a lot of people out there who have been affected by the school, program and Paterno.

 

By all accounts Paterno was a very good man and i have known some friends that have had close relationships with the guy and cannot say a bad word about him.

Agreed. Plus, look at the players who granted aren't kids anymore, that had their wins taken away. Punish the criminals, whoever they are, to the fullest extent of the law. Of course that's more important than football. But this isn't a football thing, and they didn't break any NCAA rules.

[Gugny]

Agreed. Plus, look at the players who granted aren't kids anymore, that had their wins taken away. Punish the criminals, whoever they are, to the fullest extent of the law. Of course that's more important than football. But this isn't a football thing, and they didn't break any NCAA rules.

 

 

I agree that the players were unfairly punished by their wins being taken away. The team should get credit for the wins. Paterno should not. Just my opinion.

 

But I guess it really doesn't matter at this point. I doubt that vacated wins take away the pains of being sexually abused for the real victims.

 

Sandusky is a monster. Paterno was his partner in crime because he allowed Sandusky to stay on the team and around the kids - well after he knew who/what Sandusky was.

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

 

 

I agree that the players were unfairly punished by their wins being taken away. The team should get credit for the wins. Paterno should not. Just my opinion.

 

But I guess it really doesn't matter at this point. I doubt that vacated wins take away the pains of being sexually abused for the real victims.

 

Sandusky is a monster. Paterno was his partner in crime because he allowed Sandusky to stay on the team and around the kids - well after he knew who/what Sandusky was.

What they should have done, any bowl sanctions, scholarship punishments etc, should have been put in place three years after. That would hurt the school/program with their scouting efforts, yet still gives the players who are already there a chance.

[4merper4mer]

I think you half a small majority that actually care about the W-L record. I realize that Paterno isn't a Saint but he did win those football games and did very good things for the community and college sports.

 

What I cannot fathom is that there are people out there who want the football team to suffer when the program is the only opportunity for many students to get the level of education (if any education at all) that Penn State affords. Sure, a dozen PSU players are there to just play ball and two dozen are just there taking courses in under water basket weaving but there are several dozen more that are there truly doing good for their community and making the most of this opportunity and they do not deserve to suffer for something they had no part of that happened when they were just in primary school. There are a lot of people out there who have been affected by the school, program and Paterno.

 

By all accounts Paterno was a very good man and i have known some friends that have had close relationships with the guy and cannot say a bad word about him.

 

Although Paterno clearly did good things in his career, to say "by all accounts" is incorrect. In addition to looking the other way on child rape, there was at least one former PSU official that claims to have been run out of town by Paterno. Her case is very well documented and discussed i the original thread. There is no need to get into it here.

 

As far as W/L versus child abuse, ask yourself this:

 

If you could measure human energy by the ounce, how many ounces of energy have been expended by PSU faithful in worrying about or attempting to restore JoPa's record versus worrying about or trying to change the environment that fostered a child rapist for over a decade? I don't think it is even a close comparison and that is disgusting.

 

And spare me the utter crap about what opportunities kids would have if PSU football went away. How many other schools are out there? Nature abhors a vacuum.

[sullim4]

Not a PSU fan... but this was a case where the logic behind the punishment didn't match the crime. If they gained a competitive advantage (think NE* style cheating, severe recruiting violations, etc) then I'd be totally fine with vacating the wins.

 

That's not the case here. Fines, firings, criminal investigations, indictments, and jail time, sure. I'd even say the death penalty should be on the table. But you cannot just re-write history - their on-field performance has nothing to do with the crime. Particularly given that Sandusky wasn't even on the staff during the vast majority of the vacated wins. I think a stronger argument could be made to vacate the wins while he was on staff, including the national championships...

[NoSaint]

I'm all for incredibly harsh punishments but that we ever started a discussion about vacating wins and bowl eligibility in the first place seems pretty ridiculous. Not because the wins are more important but because it feels cheap and like we're trying to prove who hates molestation the most instead of focusing on perpetrators getting punished in the legal system and victims getting help.

[DC Tom]

I'm all for incredibly harsh punishments but that we ever started a discussion about vacating wins and bowl eligibility in the first place seems pretty ridiculous. Not because the wins are more important but because it feels cheap and like we're trying to prove who hates molestation the most instead of focusing on perpetrators getting punished in the legal system and victims getting help.

 

Bingo.

 

Just like the whole Ray Rice situation. We don't want to do anything about the problem, we just want to prove we don't like it.

[boyst]

 

Although Paterno clearly did good things in his career, to say "by all accounts" is incorrect. In addition to looking the other way on child rape, there was at least one former PSU official that claims to have been run out of town by Paterno. Her case is very well documented and discussed i the original thread. There is no need to get into it here.

 

As far as W/L versus child abuse, ask yourself this:

 

If you could measure human energy by the ounce, how many ounces of energy have been expended by PSU faithful in worrying about or attempting to restore JoPa's record versus worrying about or trying to change the environment that fostered a child rapist for over a decade? I don't think it is even a close comparison and that is disgusting.

 

And spare me the utter crap about what opportunities kids would have if PSU football went away. How many other schools are out there? Nature abhors a vacuum.

I truly get your frustration but this is a world where countless hours of time were wasted watching Baby Boo Boo and Justin Bieber gets dailypress. Two wrong ddon't make a right but this is almost 3 wrongs. Sandusky, the way he was handled then the way the NCAA handled it. All 3 things were horrible. There is no making it right and it will never matter. These W's mean nothing. The affected lives of student athletes matter.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Looks like JoePa gets his wins back.

 

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/12179571/joe-paterno-111-wins-were-vacated-restored

 

I am sure the PSU people are happy to have the wins back because football and winning is more important than covering up molesters and fostering an atmosphere where this kind of thing happens. I can't believe they had the gall to sue the NCAA instead of owning the problem with the "School" and accepting the punishment. PU remains a stain on football.

 

Shall we cover the Catholic Church's coverup of child molestation on a FAR greater scale?

 

Should that reflect on catholic institutions like Notre Dame?

[John Adams]

 

Shall we cover the Catholic Church's coverup of child molestation on a FAR greater scale?

 

Should that reflect on catholic institutions like Notre Dame?

 

There is a New Topic button around here somewhere. Or you can search in PPP and find 8-50 threads on molesting priests.

 

Here we're talking about Penn State's coverup.

[bbb]

why do you hate Penn State so much? couldn't get in or something? jeez, i've never seen someone have such a vendetta against a school like this.

 

inb4 you say your distaste is for those who enabled Sandusky, etc.

 

I'm wondering the same thing, but he never answered you.

I'm all for incredibly harsh punishments but that we ever started a discussion about vacating wins and bowl eligibility in the first place seems pretty ridiculous. Not because the wins are more important but because it feels cheap and like we're trying to prove who hates molestation the most instead of focusing on perpetrators getting punished in the legal system and victims getting help.

 

Exactly