Bills Power structure

[thewildrabbit]

I'm sorry, but that's such a crap argument to think Whaley's shortcomings have anything to do with not finding a franchise quarterback. It's easy to throw random names out there, but the minute Kolb went down the plans changed. Guilty of striking out with journeyman back-ups and seriously flawed newcomers to provide unforeseen cover? Maybe. But I won't condemn him for not doing what 2/3 of the league hasn't done in finding the "guy."

 

And seriously, AJ Smith? As a self-proclaimed offensive-line nut like yourself, you'd be happy with him coming to the Bills? Rivers was almost out of the league a few years back because of Smith's inability to provide him with adequate protection. He got the crapped kicked out of him. Also, what QB did Smith ever identify?

All I stated was that Polian mentioned he would bring in AJ Smith in some capacity to probably help identify offensive talent. It occurs to me that those two build a very solid O line in Buffalo back in the 90's, as Smith was a scout. Plus, wasn't it AJ Smith who drafted Phillip Rivers? Anyway, perhaps it was for the best that Polian backed out.

 

That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to hire a team president like the Packers GM Ted Thompson and promote him to team president. Thompson who has been pretty darn good in finding offensive talent. Thompson was the one who drafted Aaron Rodgers, and had enough foresight to know the team would be better off without Brett Favre. He fired HC Mike Sherman, and hired Mike McCarthy. I'd say the teams under him since 2005 have been near great. Seven out of ten years in the playoffs, and a SB win.

Drew Brees was Butler.

Rivers? C'mon. They were drafting 1st overall. And they still took Eli.

And Flutie? Really wouldn't call that an eye for talent. But once again, pretty sure that was all Butler.

If it was Butler, then it was also AJ Smith as he left Buffalo with Butler to join the Chargers staff. You guys get me complaining about what AJ Smith accomplished in San Diego. Granted that even the lord of no rings regrets firing Schottenheimer because he wanted to hire his sons to run the offense and defense. The man did preside over the most successful ten year stretch in the entire teams history, and there is no debating that fact.

[stony]

All I stated was that Polian mentioned he would bring in AJ Smith in some capacity to probably help identify offensive talent. It occurs to me that those two build a very solid O line in Buffalo back in the 90's, as Smith was a scout. Plus, wasn't it AJ Smith who drafted Phillip Rivers? Anyway, perhaps it was for the best that Polian backed out.

 

That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to hire a team president like the Packers GM Ted Thompson and promote him to team president. Thompson who has been pretty darn good in finding offensive talent. Thompson was the one who drafted Aaron Rodgers, and had enough foresight to know the team would be better off without Brett Favre. He fired HC Mike Sherman, and hired Mike McCarthy. I'd say the teams under him since 2005 have been near great. Seven out of ten years in the playoffs, and a SB win.

If it was Butler, then it was also AJ Smith as he left Buffalo with Butler to join the Chargers staff. You guys get me complaining about what AJ Smith accomplished in San Diego. Granted that even the lord of no rings regrets firing Schottenheimer because he wanted to hire his sons to run the offense and defense. The man did preside over the most successful ten year stretch in the entire teams history, and there is no debating that fact.

There's no bigger fan of Ted Thompson than me. And you are 100% correct, Smith had a good run in San Diego building on the foundation Butler laid before him. The one constant in San Diego has been QB. Butler got a HOFer in the 2nd and Smith got his pick of Eli or Rivers.

[GunnerBill]

 

and I'll say again that with a 2015 first round pick the Bills could have a shot at trading up this year for a QB. Or, again if they hadn't traded up for Sammy they could have had multiple options in the 2014 draft. Manziel, Bridgewater, Carr, Garoppolo.

 

Derek Carr with a #2 pick, and wasn't he the rookie the beat the Buffalo Bills to knock them out of the playoffs? Carr finished with more yards, and TD's then Orton did last year.

 

Doesn't it bother anyone else but me that this teams scouting ability stinks on the offensive side. That they need to come to camp to see EJ, Tuel, Lewis hasn't developed enough to start, keep on the active roster or keep on the team

 

Sammy Watkins + Kyle Orton helped us to more wins last year than any of those rookie QBs would have done. If Carr was in Buffalo with his worse than EJ completion rate and worse than EJ ypa there would be a zillion posts on here about another Quarterback bust (and I do actually think the kid has a chance but he is far from a sure thing). I don't want to turn this into another debate about the merits of the Watkins trade either.... I just repeat that there is nobody out there at Quarterback that Whaley has obviously "missed" on. He has brought in probably the best bet that has been available to him at that position.

 

And I don't think there has been a total failure to identify talent on the offense. I think with Watkins and Woods we may be set at receiver for some time to come. I don't think you do want a football president or a football czar I think what you in essence want is either a new general manager or a split general manager position where Whaley is only responsible for players on the defense.

 

I return to the point I made earlier - competence matters more than structure - if the Bills think Whaley is not sufficiently competent (I know some on here share that view, I personall don't) then the answer is replace him, not shove another layer of management on top of him.

[RealityCheck]

By default, the current organizational structure points to a "buck stops with the Pegulas" kind of equation. In the past, "those at fault" were part of a murky cabal of enigmatic personae. Now, it appears to me to function as a very simple, and hopefully efficient FO. Moves like this need to play out due to the non-linearity of the situation and football in general. This FO should be judged by their win/loss column. In the books of many, the clock is officially set at zero, and the score is zero to zero. JMO.

[PaattMaann]

All I stated was that Polian mentioned he would bring in AJ Smith in some capacity to probably help identify offensive talent. It occurs to me that those two build a very solid O line in Buffalo back in the 90's, as Smith was a scout. Plus, wasn't it AJ Smith who drafted Phillip Rivers? Anyway, perhaps it was for the best that Polian backed out.

 

That doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to hire a team president like the Packers GM Ted Thompson and promote him to team president. Thompson who has been pretty darn good in finding offensive talent. Thompson was the one who drafted Aaron Rodgers, and had enough foresight to know the team would be better off without Brett Favre. He fired HC Mike Sherman, and hired Mike McCarthy. I'd say the teams under him since 2005 have been near great. Seven out of ten years in the playoffs, and a SB win.

If it was Butler, then it was also AJ Smith as he left Buffalo with Butler to join the Chargers staff. You guys get me complaining about what AJ Smith accomplished in San Diego. Granted that even the lord of no rings regrets firing Schottenheimer because he wanted to hire his sons to run the offense and defense. The man did preside over the most successful ten year stretch in the entire teams history, and there is no debating that fact.

 

Ted Thompson isn't leaving Green Bay for that "promotion" - sorry, just not happening...he's got a solid organization in place that he's the head of and has great success with, is very well paid and respected and answers to no one but himself....unless your making him one of the 32 owners in the league, I don't see ANY job as a promotion, especially to this perpetual **** show

[thewildrabbit]

 

Sammy Watkins + Kyle Orton helped us to more wins last year than any of those rookie QBs would have done. If Carr was in Buffalo with his worse than EJ completion rate and worse than EJ ypa there would be a zillion posts on here about another Quarterback bust (and I do actually think the kid has a chance but he is far from a sure thing). I don't want to turn this into another debate about the merits of the Watkins trade either.... I just repeat that there is nobody out there at Quarterback that Whaley has obviously "missed" on. He has brought in probably the best bet that has been available to him at that position.

 

And I don't think there has been a total failure to identify talent on the offense. I think with Watkins and Woods we may be set at receiver for some time to come. I don't think you do want a football president or a football czar I think what you in essence want is either a new general manager or a split general manager position where Whaley is only responsible for players on the defense.

 

I return to the point I made earlier - competence matters more than structure - if the Bills think Whaley is not sufficiently competent (I know some on here share that view, I personall don't) then the answer is replace him, not shove another layer of management on top of him.

How can you look at the offensive acquisitions the last two years, and not see total incompetence? The Line, the trades, and losing this years first round pick, and the QB position all add up to some really bad judgement calls. Probably why the team just fired the pro personnel director.

 

Understand while I think the job Whaley has done with the defensive side is near brilliant (near = Justin Rodgers et al) in his two years, and conversely the offensive side has been in the top ten worst in the league for more reasons then just coaching. I have never advocated firing Whaley, not ever!

 

You do realize that if the trade for Sammy hadn't taken place the player that Whaley stated he would have taken at #9 was Eric Ebron Now think of Ebron, and Kouandjio as the first two picks for the offense last season.

 

There was something definitely rotten in the Buffalo Bills scouting department, and we don't really know If Whaley with his vast knowledge of two years experience in this job as GM has enough acumen to figure out who needs to go and who doesn't. Even with the scouting dept changed the GM should have had enough of his own skill in evaluating talent to know a decent starting NFL player from an absolute disaster in someone like Colin Brown.

 

Doug Whaley clearly needs some help in doing his job, and the team needs more then a brand new owner along with Russ Brandon to give him that help.

Edited January 21, 2015 by FeartheLosing

[beerme1]

Doug Whaley clearly needs some help in doing his job, and the team needs more then a brand new owner along with Russ Brandon to give him that help.

I'm gonna disagree. This is really his show now and he gets to sink or swim with it. El Pegual is loyal people. If they figure out you're not worthy, then you get sent down the river on a raft that's on fire.

[thewildrabbit]

I'm gonna disagree. This is really his show now and he gets to sink or swim with it. El Pegual is loyal people. If they figure out you're not worthy, then you get sent down the river on a raft that's on fire.

Jeez, its been his show for two years now! How many years will it take to understand that he and the scouting department already have shown great difficulty in evaluating top offensive talent. The man has already sunk, and Bills fans just don't care to acknowledge that fact. The entire point of that sentence wasn't that if he doesn't get it right this year to fire him. The idea of letting him sink or swim is rather lame when he clearly needs help, and he won't get help at all from Russ Brandon or a new owner.

 

Probably the most difficult position to scout is the QB position because not only do they need to make sure the player has all the physical abilities to play the position. They need to evaluate the man along with his heart and desire to be a great player. His leadership, and poise. His accuracy, vision, arm strength, pocket presence. Can he throw his receivers open, and does he have the proper mechanics in throwing motion, and follow through. Its why finding that elite "franchise' QB is so difficult. People like Bill Polian, AJ Smith, Ted Thompson have that ability to see a future NFL HoF QB in a college player, and I can see why Terry Pegula reached out to Polian.

 

 

 

On another note,

In one of the recent posts above "GunnerBill" doesn't give much credence to the thought of the Bills acquiring Derek Carr at QB, and yet from what I've read that if the 2014 draft had a do-over Carr would have been the first overall pick to Houston. Or If he made it past Houston then he would have gone to Jacksonville instead of Bortles, as Carr was clearly the best rookie QB this past season.

 

http://www.si.com/nfl/video/2015/01/20/redrafting-2014-nfl-draft

 

Bill fans probably have amnesia thinking about that loss to the lowly Raiders that knocked the Bills out of playoff contention. Against that elite Buffalo defense Carr went 17 of 34 for 214 yards and 2 TD's. Superstar Packer QB Aaron Rodgers played the Bills the week earlier and went 17 of 42 for 185, and 2 INT"s

 

 

In an impossible spot against a motivated Broncos team with an elite defense, Carr had no shot. But he was the NFL's best rookie quarterback for stretches this season, showing an ability to read defenses and make throws even with zero talent around him. He started all 16 games, completing 58.0 percent of his passes with 21 touchdowns and 12 interceptions. Carr may not be handed the 2015 starting job by a new Raiders regime, but he'll likely win it.

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/9349/derek-carr

[GunnerBill]

Read my post again. I like Derek Carr, I think the kid has a chance but his numbers 16 games into his NFL career are not that dissimilar to EJ Manuel's and everyone on here wants to declare Manuel a bust because he is:

 

a. inaccurate (better completion % than Carr); and

b. takes too many checkdowns (better ypa than Carr).

 

Far from me being vehemently against picking him I simply try to highlight that if we had we would just be putting him in the same list of "bad offensive moves" that you are putting EJ and the trades in.

 

If, and I do mean if, I accepted you assertion that the Watkins trade was a bad move (I don't) then it might cause me to feel differently about Whaley I suppose. In those circumstances I might accept he is batting at about par (good defense and poor offense) but given how I feel about that trade I have Whaley in credit so far. The offensive line is the one big area that I think he has missed on things. At Quarterback I think he took the best of very limited options, he hasn't solved it but there hasn't been an obvious solution out there.

 

But the crux of our disagreement here is about the extent to which the structure matters. Competence matters to me far more. I don't think you prop up an underacheiving GM with another layer of management. If you genuinely think your GM has been totally incompetent on one side of the ball then you fire him and find someone better.

[thewildrabbit]

Read my post again. I like Derek Carr, I think the kid has a chance but his numbers 16 games into his NFL career are not that dissimilar to EJ Manuel's and everyone on here wants to declare Manuel a bust because he is:

 

a. inaccurate (better completion % than Carr); and

b. takes too many checkdowns (better ypa than Carr).

 

Far from me being vehemently against picking him I simply try to highlight that if we had we would just be putting him in the same list of "bad offensive moves" that you are putting EJ and the trades in.

 

If, and I do mean if, I accepted you assertion that the Watkins trade was a bad move (I don't) then it might cause me to feel differently about Whaley I suppose. In those circumstances I might accept he is batting at about par (good defense and poor offense) but given how I feel about that trade I have Whaley in credit so far. The offensive line is the one big area that I think he has missed on things. At Quarterback I think he took the best of very limited options, he hasn't solved it but there hasn't been an obvious solution out there.

 

But the crux of our disagreement here is about the extent to which the structure matters. Competence matters to me far more. I don't think you prop up an underachieving GM with another layer of management. If you genuinely think your GM has been totally incompetent on one side of the ball then you fire him and find someone better.

In all probability the entire reason for the speculation that should Bill Polian have been hired in Buffalo then Doug Whaley's days would have been numbered, and Brandon would have been fully moved to the financial side. Since the Polian hire didn't happen then nothing has really changed.

 

 

The entire story of the problem with the failure on the offensive side of the ball doesn't start with Whaley, and goes all the way back to the 2000's with all the bad acquisitions for the last 15 years. We can look at the 2010 off season with the Buddy Nix acquisition of free agent RT Cornell Green at 2 mill per, and he was so bad he lasted only 6 games before being benched and released. The is the exact same thing that happened in 2013 with the replacement for Levitre in Colin Brown, who was also so bad he was benched and released after 6 games.

 

Buddy Nix probably thought he removed the problem when he rid the team of chief scout Tom Modrak. He may have thought the trouble was now over after the success he had after drafting LT Cordy Glenn. But Its something that is still prevalent, and occurring because of the most recent offensive failures. Like I stated probably why the team just fired the pro personnel director Tom Gibbons. Although this only helps with finding free agents, and doesn't address the problem with the offensive scouts.

 

While as a Bills fan you have to admire Whaley's courage of his conviction to try and build a great team in Buffalo, and this is a big reason why I think the Pegula's would be wise to retain him. Still, the offensive side of the ball clearly needs assistance in obtaining high quality talent, and most particularly a franchise QB.

 

http://mmqb.si.com/2014/05/09/bills-draft-sammy-watkins-gutsy-trade/

 

Then, just one mans opinion, and yet shared by so many others that are not Bill Fans.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/

 

 

The main reason I want to see a new team president hired (like Ted Thompson with his vision on QB talent) is to properly identify a top quality QB like an Aaron Rodgers for the Buffalo Bills. A true franchise QB is something this team has lacked since the early 90's. So, if it came down to keeping Whaley, or hiring Ted Thompson and allowing him to build the franchise properly, it would be 1000% Thompson. Rex Ryan has had a top ten defense the last four years, and yet didn't even field a winning team. This team won't ever see the super bowl again until they see a true franchise QB on the roster.

Edited January 23, 2015 by FeartheLosing