Kelly the Dog Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'd still like to know what happened to a "football" team president/czar/consultant that Whaley, Ryan, and any other football related staff would report to? The Pegula's clearly wanted one as they reached out to Polian. Then once he turned them down, the position was no longer needed? So now, all football related staff report to the Pegula's who have no football background? Spin the new reporting structure as a positive, but I'd feel much better if they had filled the position that they were after Polian for. El Petulante spoke to Polian about a consultant czar position. Plus some others. When Marrone quit, El Petulante immediately got Whaley and Brandon to put a list of coaching candidates together. With Kim, all four of them were together for two full weeks. Whaley said he never went home one time during that period. During all of the interviews, El Petulante got to learn all about the process and was impressed by Whaley and then Rex enough to let Brandon do business, Whaley run football, Rex run the team. There is no need for a czar.
thewildrabbit Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 To the your entire point (in bold) you are wrong. The 2 teams in the SB, both coaches report directly to the owner. The Seahawks, Patriots*, Cowboys, Steelers, Chiefs and Eagles are all previous playoff teams. The Pats*, Seahawks and Steelers are pretty regular teams in the playoffs. Some teams do it one way, which works. Others do it another way, which also works. No one way has proven more effective. In regards to the team you mentioned, and more. Exactly how many teams have a head coach with enough NFL experience, football acumen to have total autonomy over the entire side of football operations. ONLY ONE, Bill Belichick. However, since Belichick has had total control how many SB's have they won? The Baltimore Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome has full power, and used to be vice president of football operations. won 2x super bowls with this structure. Seattle Seahawks HC Pete Carroll has player control over the roster but not over every player decision as his GM handles that. GM John Schneider was the one who hand picked Russell Wilson, and Carroll gives him credit for it. One SB http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/27/pete-carroll-praises-john-schneider-for-drafting-russell-wilson/ The Dallas Cowboys owner is the team president and GM, totally unique. The HC has to report to the owner because there really is nobody else. Have not won a SB in how long? The Eagles have a GM who is more a finance guy, and now this year HC Chip Kelly will take over total player control of the roster. Kelly still doesn't report directly to the owner. Ex Eagles HC Andy Reid was also the Exe VP of player personnel so he controlled the roster, and he didn't report directly to Jeffery Laurie either. Vice president of football operations Howie Rosman is still the man man at the top of the football chain and here is an article calling the situation toxic. "The root of the problem is the flow of information from Roseman to Lurie, which is spun exactly the way Roseman wants it." Have not ever won a SB! http://www.csnphilly.com/football-philadelphia-eagles/jeffrey-luries-power-structure-created-toxic-environment-eagles-front-office. The Kansas City Chiefs, "For years, the coach had reported to the GM, and the GM reported to the chairman. Amid a disastrous 2-14 campaign, Hunt restructured that, making it so both the coach and GM would report to him -- a move that likely opened the door to land a leader of Andy Reid's stature. The Chiefs didn't even make the playoffs in 2014. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000213432/article/whos-ireallyi-in-charge-afc-west-has-undergone-great-change The Pittsburgh Steelers have a standard hierarchy in that the HC reports to the GM, who reports to the owners, and the owners have a major say in everything because the family has been involved in the NFL since 1933. 2x SB, one win The Green Bay packers. The HC reports to GM Ted Thompson who reports to president / CEO Mark Murphy, and Thompson has about as much say over the teams football operations as anyone in the league. One SB win, and in the playoffs every year. NY Giants, The HC has say over the roster & GM Jerry Reese has control over team player acquisitions. Both men report to the owner who is in his 9th year as CEO. 2x SB wins. The current power structure in Buffalo may eventually work properly once the new owners gain enough knowledge and understanding of how to run the football side of operations. Although, one could easily say that the last Bills owner had 50 years experience and still didn't know how to build a winning team.
LabattBlue Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 El Petulante spoke to Polian about a consultant czar position. Plus some others. When Marrone quit, El Petulante immediately got Whaley and Brandon to put a list of coaching candidates together. With Kim, all four of them were together for two full weeks. Whaley said he never went home one time during that period. During all of the interviews, El Petulante got to learn all about the process and was impressed by Whaley and then Rex enough to let Brandon do business, Whaley run football, Rex run the team. There is no need for a czar. I'm not just talking about the hiring of a coach. It is the job of heading up the entire football operation side of the business going forward. So in a span of a month the Pegula's got to know everything needed to head up the football operation side of the business? okie dokie.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'd still like to know what happened to a "football" team president/czar/consultant that Whaley, Ryan, and any other football related staff would report to? The Pegula's clearly wanted one as they reached out to Polian. Then once he turned them down, the position was no longer needed? So now, all football related staff report to the Pegula's who have no football background? Spin the new reporting structure as a positive, but I'd feel much better if they had filled the position that they were after Polian for. That person (in theory) was going to do nothing more than assess the FO. Perhaps, TP saw all that he needed to see and believes that they are? I don't know why people are having a hard time with them reporting to ownership? It isn't uncommon. As long as the roles are clearly defined (as they appear to be) the tiebreakers fall back on whose area it is. If it is the 53 man it's Whaley, gameday Rex and budgets Russ. That's not a change from how it operated prior. The big difference is that St. Doug wanted more of a say in the 53. That was evident by the guys that he chose not to dress (Bryce, Cyrus & Mike Williams). I'm not saying that those guys are perfect but if given the opportunity they all could have contributed as much or more than Larry Dean & Lee Smith for example.
eball Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'm not just talking about the hiring of a coach. It is the job of heading up the entire football operation side of the business going forward. So in a span of a month the Pegula's got to know everything needed to head up the football operation side of the business? okie dokie. No, they became familiar with the process and decided Whaley/Ryan can handle the personnel and coaching side, and Russ can handle the administrative side. What's the problem?
LabattBlue Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) As long as the roles are clearly defined (as they appear to be) the tiebreakers fall back on whose area it is. If it is the 53 man it's Whaley, gameday Rex and budgets Russ. That's not a change from how it operated prior. You know for a fact that this is how it will work, instead of how you think it will work? i.e. The high profile coach complains to the owner about the 53 man roster, and the owner will side with the GM instead of the aformentioned high profile coach? I don't know either, but that potential problem doesn't occur if the coach reports to the GM, and the owners aren't of the meddling variety. Edited January 19, 2015 by LabattBlue
Kelly the Dog Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'm not just talking about the hiring of a coach. It is the job of heading up the entire football operation side of the business going forward. So in a span of a month the Pegula's got to know everything needed to head up the football operation side of the business? okie dokie.No, I think he decided that it was in good hands, with Rex and Whaley. The business side is already fine. The one key for me is Overdorf. I have always hated his position on the Bills. But, like Brandon, he was just a Lieutenant for Ralph all these years and being a good soldier carrying out the General's wishes. Now there is a new general in Daddy Warbucks, so maybe, MAYBE, Overdorf will be acting a lot different. I always thought that it was somewhat stupid for a non football guy like Littman who is gone and Overdorf who negotiated the contracts to be deciding how much any player is actually worth. The GM would have his say obviously but a lot of times it was the non football guys. Whaley should be deciding how much guys are worth and working with Overdorf together. I'm really not sure how that dynamic is working under El Petulante and how it has or may change, if at all. If Rex has a say, I'm sure he would say he wants the GM making that decision even with the bozos he had to work with in Ny. And I wouldn't want any czar guy making personnel decisions anyway.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 You know for a fact that this is how it will work, instead of how you think it will work? i.e. The high profile coach complains to the owner about the 53 man roster, and the owner will side with the GM instead of the aformentioned high profile coach? I don't know either, but that potential problem doesn't occur if the coach reports to the GM, and the owners aren't of the meddling variety. It doesn't change either way. If they follow their roles (as they have in the past by the way) it isn't an issue. If the coach reported to the GM ultimately the GM would be the tiebreaker on the 53. It's not different. It is a very common structure around sports. It's not the structure that was broken it was the relationship between the coach and his GM. He wanted more of a say over the roster. It didn't happen. No, I think he decided that it was in good hands, with Rex and Whaley. The business side is already fine. The one key for me is Overdorf. I have always hated his position on the Bills. But, like Brandon, he was just a Lieutenant for Ralph all these years and being a good soldier carrying out the General's wishes. Now there is a new general in Daddy Warbucks, so maybe, MAYBE, Overdorf will be acting a lot different. I always thought that it was somewhat stupid for a non football guy like Littman who is gone and Overdorf who negotiated the contracts to be deciding how much any player is actually worth. The GM would have his say obviously but a lot of times it was the non football guys. Whaley should be deciding how much guys are worth and working with Overdorf together. I'm really not sure how that dynamic is working under El Petulante and how it has or may change, if at all. If Rex has a say, I'm sure he would say he wants the GM making that decision even with the bozos he had to work with in Ny. And I wouldn't want any czar guy making personnel decisions anyway. I think that the budget will work as such: Pegula gives Russ a number to spend, Russ works out where they are now in relation to the cap & moving forward & tells Whaley what he has to spend this year. Whaley builds his offseason plan with the help of the coaching staff. They identify their targets and put some numbers to those targets in regards to the budget. Then they go recruit or resign said players. The negotiations will probably be done by Russ & Overdorf (I'd think) within the range that Whaley designates for the player. If they need to go a little above that number they will go back to Russ and ask for more money. He and Pegula will discuss the potential ramifications of it and Pegula will make a decision. He will either authorize it or he won't.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 It doesn't change either way. If they follow their roles (as they have in the past by the way) it isn't an issue. If the coach reported to the GM ultimately the GM would be the tiebreaker on the 53. It's not different. It is a very common structure around sports. It's not the structure that was broken it was the relationship between the coach and his GM. He wanted more of a say over the roster. It didn't happen. I think that the budget will work as such: Pegula gives Russ a number to spend, Russ works out where they are now in relation to the cap & moving forward & tells Whaley what he has to spend this year. Whaley builds his offseason plan with the help of the coaching staff. They identify their targets and put some numbers to those targets in regards to the budget. Then they go recruit or resign said players. The negotiations will probably be done by Russ & Overdorf (I'd think) within the range that Whaley designates for the player. If they need to go a little above that number they will go back to Russ and ask for more money. He and Pegula will discuss the potential ramifications of it and Pegula will make a decision. He will either authorize it or he won't. I'm cool with that as long as Whaley is making those high/low parameters with Rex, and not Russ/Overdorf. Nix sometimes bragged that he didn't want to deal with contracts and cap. Whaley should get his own little young version of himself, who is part analytics guy and part capologist wizard, but a football background not a business background. To just be his assistant. Like Jonah Hill in Moneyball.
thewildrabbit Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 I'd still like to know what happened to a "football" team president/czar/consultant that Whaley, Ryan, and any other football related staff would report to? The Pegula's clearly wanted one as they reached out to Polian. Then once he turned them down, the position was no longer needed? So now, all football related staff report to the Pegula's who have no football background? Spin the new reporting structure as a positive, but I'd feel much better if they had filled the position that they were after Polian for. Exactly I don't trust Whaley as he hasn't gotten the offensive side right at all. I don't trust Brandon with any football decisions, and I surely don't trust a new owner who has no experience in how the football operations side works. How has Doug Whaley done in his two years of finding that franchise guy? Not EJ, and not Kevin Kolb, Jeff Tuel, Thaddeus Lewis, Matt Flynn, Matt Leinart, Kyle Orton. 0 for 7? So, how has Doug Whaley done in acquiring O lineman the last two years since he let Andy Levitre, Chad Rinehart leave? Colin Brown, Sam Young, Doug legursky, Chris Williams, Seantrel Henderson, Cyrus Kounandjio, Cyril Richardson. One for 7, and that one was barely good enough to start, and only started because the team didn't have better. The team could have had a winning record two years ago, and perhaps made the playoffs this year with some linemen that could actually throw a decent block. How did those trades workout with RB Bryce Brown, WR Mike Williams, and not even utilized much at all last year. The Bills trade away a player for a 4th and he becomes a HoFer. WR Sammy Watkins talent is undeniable. But did the team really need to give up an extra #1 & #4 pick in 2015 when Odell Beckham Jr, Kelvin Benjamin would have been there at the #9 pick. Bill Polian stated he would have needed to bring in ex Charger GM AJ Smith, and change some scouts, and I believe him. Probably wanted some help in identifying a quality QB, and O line talent. At this point I know I don't have much faith in a 2nd year GM making offensive player acquisitions. I have no idea why there is no football president in the works.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'm cool with that as long as Whaley is making those high/low parameters with Rex, and not Russ/Overdorf. Nix sometimes bragged that he didn't want to deal with contracts and cap. Whaley should get his own little young version of himself, who is part analytics guy and part capologist wizard, but a football background not a business background. To just be his assistant. Like Jonah Hill in Moneyball. My guess is that Whaley is setting a range with his football people. Russ/Overdorf will not write off anyone that Whaley wants. They are just much more experienced negotiators which is why I see them doing that. Basically Whaley tells them what he wants and they try to get that guy on the best terms possible.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 My guess is that Whaley is setting a range with his football people. Russ/Overdorf will not write off anyone that Whaley wants. They are just much more experienced negotiators which is why I see them doing that. Basically Whaley tells them what he wants and they try to get that guy on the best terms possible. I agree. But he should have final say in that, too. If Overdorf says we cannot get this guy for less than YxZ, Whaley should say yeah or nay. I believe before he did not have that power.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I agree. But he should have final say in that, too. If Overdorf says we cannot get this guy for less than YxZ, Whaley should say yeah or nay. I believe before he did not have that power.I think that he certainly has that say now. That is what I am getting at. He ultimately sets a range for a player and if that player falls outside of that range he has to decide whether or not he still wants them.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I think that he certainly has that say now. That is what I am getting at. He ultimately sets a range for a player and if that player falls outside of that range he has to decide whether or not he still wants them. Agreed. I hope so and think so. Thanks.
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 How has Doug Whaley done in his two years of finding that franchise guy? Not EJ, and not Kevin Kolb, Jeff Tuel, Thaddeus Lewis, Matt Flynn, Matt Leinart, Kyle Orton. 0 for 7? I'll say again - who has been out there in that time that he has missed on? You can make a legitimate argument to say that the best Quarterback available in that period was Kyle Orton and we signed him.
Wayne Cubed Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 In regards to the team you mentioned, and more. Exactly how many teams have a head coach with enough NFL experience, football acumen to have total autonomy over the entire side of football operations. ONLY ONE, Bill Belichick. However, since Belichick has had total control how many SB's have they won? The Baltimore Ravens GM Ozzie Newsome has full power, and used to be vice president of football operations. won 2x super bowls with this structure. Seattle Seahawks HC Pete Carroll has player control over the roster but not over every player decision as his GM handles that. GM John Schneider was the one who hand picked Russell Wilson, and Carroll gives him credit for it. One SB http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/27/pete-carroll-praises-john-schneider-for-drafting-russell-wilson/ The Dallas Cowboys owner is the team president and GM, totally unique. The HC has to report to the owner because there really is nobody else. Have not won a SB in how long? The Eagles have a GM who is more a finance guy, and now this year HC Chip Kelly will take over total player control of the roster. Kelly still doesn't report directly to the owner. Ex Eagles HC Andy Reid was also the Exe VP of player personnel so he controlled the roster, and he didn't report directly to Jeffery Laurie either. Vice president of football operations Howie Rosman is still the man man at the top of the football chain and here is an article calling the situation toxic. "The root of the problem is the flow of information from Roseman to Lurie, which is spun exactly the way Roseman wants it." Have not ever won a SB! http://www.csnphilly.com/football-philadelphia-eagles/jeffrey-luries-power-structure-created-toxic-environment-eagles-front-office. The Kansas City Chiefs, "For years, the coach had reported to the GM, and the GM reported to the chairman. Amid a disastrous 2-14 campaign, Hunt restructured that, making it so both the coach and GM would report to him -- a move that likely opened the door to land a leader of Andy Reid's stature. The Chiefs didn't even make the playoffs in 2014. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000213432/article/whos-ireallyi-in-charge-afc-west-has-undergone-great-change The Pittsburgh Steelers have a standard hierarchy in that the HC reports to the GM, who reports to the owners, and the owners have a major say in everything because the family has been involved in the NFL since 1933. 2x SB, one win The Green Bay packers. The HC reports to GM Ted Thompson who reports to president / CEO Mark Murphy, and Thompson has about as much say over the teams football operations as anyone in the league. One SB win, and in the playoffs every year. NY Giants, The HC has say over the roster & GM Jerry Reese has control over team player acquisitions. Both men report to the owner who is in his 9th year as CEO. 2x SB wins. The current power structure in Buffalo may eventually work properly once the new owners gain enough knowledge and understanding of how to run the football side of operations. Although, one could easily say that the last Bills owner had 50 years experience and still didn't know how to build a winning team. So your argument originally was that the Bills current structure was not how winning teams do it. That is, the coach reports directly to the owner. I pointed out teams, winning teams, that in fact have that organizational structure. Now, you are arguing about player personnel and which coaches have control of that. That was never my counter point to your argument and further the Bills structure is not set up that way. Rex is not in control of player personnel, so I'm not exactly sure what your point is. You can keep citing all these articles about how the teams are set up, I know how they are. You just are regurgitating what I already know, which is why I posted the original article because you didn't seem to know how teams structures were set up and which teams were set up certain ways. The Bills structure is not an anomaly as much as you originally wanted it to be. Like I said before, some teams are set up some ways, HC reports directly to the owner, and some are set up other ways, HC reports to GM. Both of those structures work. The whole point of this thread has been that you don't think Whaley is doing a good job. More specifically you don't think he's done a good job offense. More specific within that, you don't think he's done a good job drafting OL. So you think the Bills need a footbal czar or to get someone in Buffalo who can identify offensive talent. Whaley has been on the Bills staff and helped identify a lot of offensive talent. Has he gotten every single thing right? No of course not, no GM is perfect and you can't have pro-bowl talent at every position no matter how easy you may think it is to find it. Bring back the dinosaur Bill Pollian an AJ Smith is going to do what exactly? Are they known for drafting or finding amazing OL talent? Shall we talk about all their missed picks on offense? Since 2003 when AJ Smith took over as GM in San Diego until he was fired in 2012 Smith drafted 14 OL. Two of those were exceptional pro bowl talent players, McNeil and Hardwick. Thats it. He did draft Vasquez as well, but he didn't go to the pro bowl until he was with Denver, so can't really give him credit a he didn't keep him on the team. Some say he was fired because of his inability to protect Phillip Rivers with a good OL.
thewildrabbit Posted January 20, 2015 Author Posted January 20, 2015 I'll say again - who has been out there in that time that he has missed on? You can make a legitimate argument to say that the best Quarterback available in that period was Kyle Orton and we signed him. and I'll say again that with a 2015 first round pick the Bills could have a shot at trading up this year for a QB. Or, again if they hadn't traded up for Sammy they could have had multiple options in the 2014 draft. Manziel, Bridgewater, Carr, Garoppolo. Derek Carr with a #2 pick, and wasn't he the rookie the beat the Buffalo Bills to knock them out of the playoffs? Carr finished with more yards, and TD's then Orton did last year. Doesn't it bother anyone else but me that this teams scouting ability stinks on the offensive side. That they need to come to camp to see EJ, Tuel, Lewis hasn't developed enough to start, keep on the active roster or keep on the team
stony Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Exactly I don't trust Whaley as he hasn't gotten the offensive side right at all. I don't trust Brandon with any football decisions, and I surely don't trust a new owner who has no experience in how the football operations side works. How has Doug Whaley done in his two years of finding that franchise guy? Not EJ, and not Kevin Kolb, Jeff Tuel, Thaddeus Lewis, Matt Flynn, Matt Leinart, Kyle Orton. 0 for 7? So, how has Doug Whaley done in acquiring O lineman the last two years since he let Andy Levitre, Chad Rinehart leave? Colin Brown, Sam Young, Doug legursky, Chris Williams, Seantrel Henderson, Cyrus Kounandjio, Cyril Richardson. One for 7, and that one was barely good enough to start, and only started because the team didn't have better. The team could have had a winning record two years ago, and perhaps made the playoffs this year with some linemen that could actually throw a decent block. How did those trades workout with RB Bryce Brown, WR Mike Williams, and not even utilized much at all last year. The Bills trade away a player for a 4th and he becomes a HoFer. WR Sammy Watkins talent is undeniable. But did the team really need to give up an extra #1 & #4 pick in 2015 when Odell Beckham Jr, Kelvin Benjamin would have been there at the #9 pick. Bill Polian stated he would have needed to bring in ex Charger GM AJ Smith, and change some scouts, and I believe him. Probably wanted some help in identifying a quality QB, and O line talent. At this point I know I don't have much faith in a 2nd year GM making offensive player acquisitions. I have no idea why there is no football president in the works. I'm sorry, but that's such a crap argument to think Whaley's shortcomings have anything to do with not finding a franchise quarterback. It's easy to throw random names out there, but the minute Kolb went down the plans changed. Guilty of striking out with journeyman back-ups and seriously flawed newcomers to provide unforeseen cover? Maybe. But I won't condemn him for not doing what 2/3 of the league hasn't done in finding the "guy." And seriously, AJ Smith? As a self-proclaimed offensive-line nut like yourself, you'd be happy with him coming to the Bills? Rivers was almost out of the league a few years back because of Smith's inability to provide him with adequate protection. He got the crapped kicked out of him. Also, what QB did Smith ever identify?
217014170 Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 I'm sorry, but that's such a crap argument to think Whaley's shortcomings have anything to do with not finding a franchise quarterback. It's easy to throw random names out there, but the minute Kolb went down the plans changed. Guilty of striking out with journeyman back-ups and seriously flawed newcomers to provide unforeseen cover? Maybe. But I won't condemn him for not doing what 2/3 of the league hasn't done in finding the "guy." And seriously, AJ Smith? As a self-proclaimed offensive-line nut like yourself, you'd be happy with him coming to the Bills? Rivers was almost out of the league a few years back because of Smith's inability to provide him with adequate protection. He got the crapped kicked out of him. Also, what QB did Smith ever identify? Doug Flutie, Drew Brees, and Philip Rivers...to name three very quickly.
stony Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Doug Flutie, Drew Brees, and Philip Rivers...to name three very quickly. Drew Brees was Butler. Rivers? C'mon. They were drafting 1st overall. And they still took Eli. And Flutie? Really wouldn't call that an eye for talent. But once again, pretty sure that was all Butler. Edited January 20, 2015 by stony
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