eball Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Got a link to where Wawrow refuted the story, because I've never read about, as If I did I'd not even bring this up. I don't have a link but also recall Wawrow refuting it -- perhaps on Twitter.
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Structure is important, but competence is significantly more. I don't care so much who reports to whom. If Pegula hires the right people, that are competent at their jobs, sets the right goals for them, provides them the resources to be effective, the Bills will become a winning organization. Something that hasn't been the case in 15+ years on the field, and some would argue never under Wilson as owner. Competent includes the ability to communicate, collaborate, make good decisions consistently and operate with a high degree of integrity. To win in the NFL, the Bills need to start with creating a highly functioning front office, all of us have to remember that there are 31 other teams with the same objective, to win the Super Bowl. The Bills have to build the best team to be the best team. I wanted to emphasize another point, to build the BEST team (FO in this case), the Bills have to hire the BEST people. Sounds simple, but it isn't. We have to ask ourselves, have the Bills had the BEST people in the key positions in the FO ?? Again, 31 other teams chasing the same objective, you want to beat them, be BETTER than them !!
Kirby Jackson Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I wanted to emphasize another point, to build the BEST team (FO in this case), the Bills have to hire the BEST people. Sounds simple, but it isn't. We have to ask ourselves, have the Bills had the BEST people in the key positions in the FO ?? Again, 31 other teams chasing the same objective, you want to beat them, be BETTER than them !! I think that this is it. How do you stack up vs. the rest of the league?
Ronin Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Dunno about the rest of you, but from where I sit Whaley didn't do a very good job with the offensive side of things the last two years. He is only in his third year on the job, and very inexperienced to have the entire roster on his shoulders. The Bills need that senior adviser so Whaley doesn't trade anymore first round picks away for anything other then a QB. He shouldn't be allowed to make any trades on his own. The last position I want him drafting is a QB after that ridiculous reach for Manuel two years ago. Let's not forget that most draft experts didn't have Manuel going until rounds two through four. Hardly anyone had him going in the 1st. But if you recall, he was the QB that the team had to have according to Whaley. Well, how's that worked out for us. I like the fact that all three, Ryan, Brandon, and Whaley are all reporting to Pegula, but you're right, that situation seems to have sprung more from Pegula's not knowing what he's doing than anything else.
JohnC Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) I'd like to see those ten teams, and I gotta wonder if any have a winning record or are drowning in dysfunction? Some of the teams mentioned by ESPN Miami, Jets, Falcons now have a similar structure like Buffalo now has in place. The teams I see always in the playoffs every year have a defined structure, and the brand new owner doesn't have the final say in football decisions. So, it wasn't really a collaborative effort by the HC, GM, finance / marketing guy if the HC didn't always agree? Even in a collaborative setting you are not going to have unanimity in opinion. It is impossible to always have total agreement on issues. If Marrone disagreed on the Watkins draft day maneuver, so what? Do you think that he was going to agree with all the draft selections? Of course not? He shouldn't have the most influence in draft selections because he is simply too busy with his own responsibilities to be immersed in evaluating prospects. Most of the responses on this topic are saying the same thing. You have a structured process in decision-making and you follow it. At the top of the pyramid for personnel decisions is the GM. The HC has a lot of influence in the process but at the conclusion of the process the GM has the final say. When all is said and done the Bills' Power Structure is a very conventional/standard approach in its organizational setup. There are organizations such as the Pats with Bilichick and Parcells with the organizations he has worked with where the HC has a greater authority in personnel decisions compared to the norm. Those are unique situations where they have earned their power situations. Edited January 17, 2015 by JohnC
beerme1 Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I like the fact that all three, Ryan, Brandon, and Whaley are all reporting to Pegula, but you're right, that situation seems to have sprung more from Pegula's not knowing what he's doing than anything else. I got no issues with the structure. Don't think any of them involved with it will have a problem with it either. And if it sprung from Pegula's not knowing what he's doing that's okay too. Marrone leaving us happened like that too! :-)
Kelly the Dog Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 I got no issues with the structure. Don't think any of them involved with it will have a problem with it either. And if it sprung from Pegula's not knowing what he's doing that's okay too. Marrone leaving us happened like that too! :-) Yep. The Pegulas need the experience and the information provided by all three as they are so new to this. After listening to Kim Pegula on the John Murphy Show that became glaringly evident. She is co-owner and actively involved and she really did not seem to know anything. I'm very glad she is in this position, don't get me wrong. And I think it's great that as a couple they will be owning and leading this team. But she has a lot to learn. A lot of people heard or believed that she grew up a Bills fan from living in Fairport but that is not true. She doesn't even remember if she was a fan or not when she was a kid. She and Terry went to a lot of Bills games when they lived in Orchard Park a few years but that's about it. She didn't seem to know one thing about Rex Ryan before they interviewed him. Not even that he was a personality. She's smart and she will pick things up fast, and there is a lot for her to add right away. But if she is going to be a co-owner she needs a lot of education on how the league and teams work. She got a great start during the interview process.
White Linen Posted January 17, 2015 Posted January 17, 2015 Even in a collaborative setting you are not going to have unanimity in opinion. It is impossible to always have total agreement on issues. If Marrone disagreed on the Watkins draft day maneuver, so what? Do you think that he was going to agree with all the draft selections? Of course not? He shouldn't have the most influence in draft selections because he is simply too busy with his own responsibilities to be immersed in evaluating prospects. Most of the responses on this topic are saying the same thing. You have a structured process in decision-making and you follow it. At the top of the pyramid for personnel decisions is the GM. The HC has a lot of influence in the process but at the conclusion of the process the GM has the final say. When all is said and done the Bills' Power Structure is a very conventional/standard approach in its organizational setup. There are organizations such as the Pats with Bilichick and Parcells with the organizations he has worked with where the HC has a greater authority in personnel decisions compared to the norm. Those are unique situations where they have earned their power situations. Excellent post!
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 I think that this is it. How do you stack up vs. the rest of the league? My biggest concern is that most Bills fans don't realize that if you want to be the best, i.e. in the Top 6-8 teams in league, your organization has to be in the top 6-8 in the league Your HC, your GM, your VP Football etc. I don't think we are there, yet. I think Whaley is good talent evaluator, but has made a few bad moves, overall, some positives, some negatives I think Bills are basically what there record says, AVERAGE. which is an improvement, but, not what's needed to get to the top 6-8 teams
beerme1 Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) My biggest concern is that most Bills fans don't realize that if you want to be the best, i.e. in the Top 6-8 teams in league, your organization has to be in the top 6-8 in the league Your HC, your GM, your VP Football etc. I don't think we are there, yet. I think Whaley is good talent evaluator, but has made a few bad moves, overall, some positives, some negatives I think Bills are basically what there record says, AVERAGE. which is an improvement, but, not what's needed to get to the top 6-8 teams For me, hiring Rex just put us up another level. I think his impact here will be significant. He is the right guy, in the right place at the right time. He is bringing mostly, the right people on board with him. So when our record shows 11-5 nest year where does that rank us? That makes everyone involved better. So Whaley becomes a top guy no? Edited January 18, 2015 by beerme1
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 18, 2015 Posted January 18, 2015 For me, hiring Rex just put us up another level. I think his impact here will be significant. He is the right guy, in the right place at the right time. He is bringing mostly, the right people on board with him. So when our record shows 11-5 nest year where does that rank us? That makes everyone involved better. So Whaley becomes a top guy no? Yes. If Marrone's poor coaching made the offensive players look worse than they are, than Whaley looks better as offense improves (which will be necessary for team to win 11). Right now, it looks like Whaley made mistakes with O Line, over paid for Watkins, didn't draft/get a decent QB -- To me, the only way this team gets to 11 wins is by getting better QB play. I think that means a new QB.
GunnerBill Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Yes. If Marrone's poor coaching made the offensive players look worse than they are, than Whaley looks better as offense improves (which will be necessary for team to win 11). Right now, it looks like Whaley made mistakes with O Line, over paid for Watkins, didn't draft/get a decent QB -- To me, the only way this team gets to 11 wins is by getting better QB play. I think that means a new QB. And whilst all that is true - the point that it is hard to get away from whn judging Whaley is that there were few (if any) better alternatives at Quarterback since he took the reigns. No free agent signed elsewhere in the league in that time has done anything special and nor have any of the draft picks taken. In fact you could argue that the best Quarterback available to Whaley since he took over was Kyle Orton and he brought him in. So you can say "he hasn't found a Quarterback yet" but he is also yet to miss on any obvious answers to that quandry.
thewildrabbit Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 Here ya go: http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/1/25/5343964/nfl-power-structures-who-really-runs-a-team That's the Patriots*, Steelers, Jaguars, Chiefs, Cowboys, Giants, Eagles, 49ers(formally Harbaugh), Seahawks, Rams and now the Bills. All coaches report directly to the Owner. In some cases the coach has control over player personnel (Pats*, Chiefs, Seahawks and now Eagles) and in the others the GM is in control of the 53 man roster and the coach has input but is in charge of the 46. The Jets, Falcons and Dolphins don't have a similar structure to the Bills at all. As you can see there a plenty of successful teams in that mix, in fact the majority of them are. I disagree with the bolded. In the article you linked it starts out stating, So the buck stops with Dolphins owner Stephen Ross.. which is similar to what the Bills are now doing. "The Miami Dolphins seem to be setting up for a power structure in which Head Coach Joe Philbin, Executive Vice President of Football Operations Dawn Aponte, and whomever the team hires as General Manager all have an equal voice with owner Stephen Ross. The NY Jets, "Both Mike Maccagnan and the coach, whether it's Todd Bowles or Dan Quinn (or somebody else), will report directly to owner Woody Johnson. Previously, the Jets used the traditional setup, with the coach reporting to the GM, who reports to Johnson. " http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/48555/jets-will-have-new-power-structure-with-gm-and-coach Atlanta Falcons HC Mike Smith is gone, and whomever the new HC is will report directly to owner Arthur Blank. "The bigger news, however, is that Blank has apparently decided that his new coach will report directly to him, instead of the much more traditional path of flow through the general manager." http://atlallday.com/2015/01/07/atlanta-falcons-front-office-restructuring/ My entire point was I see the majority of the teams that are always in the playoffs don't have the HC reporting directly to the owner, and its usually the GM or vice president of football operations who make all the appropriate football decisions. There is a structured hierarchy of HC to GM, to president of football operations to owner, and sometimes skipping the VP / pres. John Elway in Denver, Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore for example. In any event I don't think anything has changed at all with the Buffalo Bills structure. If Ryan, Whaley or Brandon go to Terry Pegula with a problem pertaining to a football decision who do you guys think he will defer to... yea exactly. Buffalo Bills fans above all other NFL fans should know what happens when the team owner is involved in player acquisitions, the draft process, and overall meddling. What happens when the head coach needs to be communicating on a daily basis with the owner. Just look what has become of the team the last 15 years. When the Bills had the proper hierarchy with GM Bill Polian running the football side they won, and won AFC Championships. The very last thing I want to see in Buffalo is another meddling owner involved in football decisions, and particularly someone who's vast NFL experience consists of watching some games on TV. Hire someone that is actually qualified to run the entire team, and let him make the important decisions on the football operations side. JMO
Wayne Cubed Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I disagree with the bolded. In the article you linked it starts out stating, So the buck stops with Dolphins owner Stephen Ross.. which is similar to what the Bills are now doing. "The Miami Dolphins seem to be setting up for a power structure in which Head Coach Joe Philbin, Executive Vice President of Football Operations Dawn Aponte, and whomever the team hires as General Manager all have an equal voice with owner Stephen Ross. The NY Jets, "Both Mike Maccagnan and the coach, whether it's Todd Bowles or Dan Quinn (or somebody else), will report directly to owner Woody Johnson. Previously, the Jets used the traditional setup, with the coach reporting to the GM, who reports to Johnson. " http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-jets/post/_/id/48555/jets-will-have-new-power-structure-with-gm-and-coach Atlanta Falcons HC Mike Smith is gone, and whomever the new HC is will report directly to owner Arthur Blank. "The bigger news, however, is that Blank has apparently decided that his new coach will report directly to him, instead of the much more traditional path of flow through the general manager." http://atlallday.com/2015/01/07/atlanta-falcons-front-office-restructuring/ My entire point was I see the majority of the teams that are always in the playoffs don't have the HC reporting directly to the owner, and its usually the GM or vice president of football operations who make all the appropriate football decisions. There is a structured hierarchy of HC to GM, to president of football operations to owner, and sometimes skipping the VP / pres. John Elway in Denver, Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore for example. In any event I don't think anything has changed at all with the Buffalo Bills structure. If Ryan, Whaley or Brandon go to Terry Pegula with a problem pertaining to a football decision who do you guys think he will defer to... yea exactly. Buffalo Bills fans above all other NFL fans should know what happens when the team owner is involved in player acquisitions, the draft process, and overall meddling. What happens when the head coach needs to be communicating on a daily basis with the owner. Just look what has become of the team the last 15 years. When the Bills had the proper hierarchy with GM Bill Polian running the football side they won, and won AFC Championships. The very last thing I want to see in Buffalo is another meddling owner involved in football decisions, and particularly someone who's vast NFL experience consists of watching some games on TV. Hire someone that is actually qualified to run the entire team, and let him make the important decisions on the football operations side. JMO To the your entire point (in bold) you are wrong. The 2 teams in the SB, both coaches report directly to the owner. The Seahawks, Patriots*, Cowboys, Steelers, Chiefs and Eagles are all previous playoff teams. The Pats*, Seahawks and Steelers are pretty regular teams in the playoffs. Some teams do it one way, which works. Others do it another way, which also works. No one way has proven more effective.
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 And whilst all that is true - the point that it is hard to get away from whn judging Whaley is that there were few (if any) better alternatives at Quarterback since he took the reigns. No free agent signed elsewhere in the league in that time has done anything special and nor have any of the draft picks taken. In fact you could argue that the best Quarterback available to Whaley since he took over was Kyle Orton and he brought him in. So you can say "he hasn't found a Quarterback yet" but he is also yet to miss on any obvious answers to that quandry.True on the QB. But selecting EJ 16th overall was viewed as a reach by most analysts and so far, it is being proven as such. Trading 2015 1st and 4th for Sammy handcuffs Bills from selecting a QB in this draft. Like I said, I think objectively, most would grade Whaley as average GM. That's better than a lot we've had before. But, if you recall, the only time we ever made Super Bowl was when we had a GREAT GM. Average will not get us there !
GunnerBill Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 (edited) Seems to me that the Dolphins changed to that structure last year and the Jets and Falcons are doing so at the same time as Buffalo - so I think saying it is a system that failing teams use is a stretch. Who knows how it works for those teams at this point? And your point about we used to win when we had Bill Polian running the football operation proves you don;t need a VP of Football Operations. You just need the right people in the key positions. You are split on your view of Doug Whaley. Some of us believe he is a good, young, General Manager. He has made some mistakes (who hasn't?) but he has improved the talent and depth on this roster since taking the job. I tend to be more in line with TXBILLSFAN in the sense that I think competence matters more than structure. Now we can have arguments about the competence of Whaley and Rex Ryan if you like but I think most agree they are a hell of a lot more competent than a lot of the people who have been doing those jobs for most of the past 15 years. True on the QB.But selecting EJ 16th overall was viewed as a reach by most analysts and so far, it is being proven as such. Trading 2015 1st and 4th for Sammy handcuffs Bills from selecting a QB in this draft.Like I said, I think objectively, most would grade Whaley as average GM. That's better than a lot we've had before. But, if you recall, the only time we ever made Super Bowl was when we had a GREAT GM.Average will not get us there ! I will leave aside whether EJ was entirely Whaley or not for now... but yes that was a reach, however, none of the other QBs in that class have been better. And I simply do not agree with your assessment of the Watkins trade. I think there are only 2 first rounders at QB in this draft and the Bills never had a shot of either of them with the talet we have on defense because we were never going to be drafting in the top 5. Edited January 19, 2015 by GunnerBill
GA BILLS FAN Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Seems to me that the Dolphins changed to that structure last year and the Jets and Falcons are doing so at the same time as Buffalo - so I think saying it is a system that failing teams use is a stretch. Who knows how it works for those teams at this point? And your point about we used to win when we had Bill Polian running the football operation proves you don;t need a VP of Football Operations. You just need the right people in the key positions. You are split on your view of Doug Whaley. Some of us believe he is a good, young, General Manager. He has made some mistakes (who hasn't?) but he has improved the talent and depth on this roster since taking the job. I tend to be more in line with TXBILLSFAN in the sense that I think competence matters more than structure. Now we can have arguments about the competence of Whaley and Rex Ryan if you like but I think most agree they are a hell of a lot more competent than a lot of the people who have been doing those jobs for most of the past 15 years. I will leave aside whether EJ was entirely Whaley or not for now... but yes that was a reach, however, none of the other QBs in that class have been better. And I simply do not agree with your assessment of the Watkins trade. I think there are only 2 first rounders at QB in this draft and the Bills never had a shot of either of them with the talet we have on defense because we were never going to be drafting in the top 5. It's not that there is a QB that is a given in this draft, the issue with the Watkins trade is this (at least for me): Until you are confident you have a franchise QB, preserve all your assets and draft picks (especially #1's) those are assets that you should protect in order to use to find the QB. Using our 1st on a WR and giving up an additional 1st and 4th is parting with too many assets to get a #1 WR, especially in a draft that EVERY expert said was deep at WR ! I'd rather the Bills be sitting here with options to use that #1 and #4 as part of a trade or to select another QB prospect Again, I don't want to turn this into a Watkins trade thread. My point is the same, Whaley has done an average job as GM.
GunnerBill Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 No nor do I - I just do not agree with your analysis of the trade and I think if you take my view of that trade than Whaley is in credit so far. That was my point.
LabattBlue Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'd still like to know what happened to a "football" team president/czar/consultant that Whaley, Ryan, and any other football related staff would report to? The Pegula's clearly wanted one as they reached out to Polian. Then once he turned them down, the position was no longer needed? So now, all football related staff report to the Pegula's who have no football background? Spin the new reporting structure as a positive, but I'd feel much better if they had filled the position that they were after Polian for.
eball Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 I'd still like to know what happened to a "football" team president/czar/consultant that Whaley, Ryan, and any other football related staff would report to? The Pegula's clearly wanted one as they reached out to Polian. Then once he turned them down, the position was no longer needed? So now, all football related staff report to the Pegula's who have no football background? Spin the new reporting structure as a positive, but I'd feel much better if they had filled the position that they were after Polian for. Your comments rely upon a premise that Pegula has refuted. He said he spoke with a number of people -- Polian included -- about how to conduct the HC search, and the "job offer" to Polian was blown out of proportion.
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