GunnerBill Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Assessing player talent to bring onto the roster is the job of Doug Whaley. You think that the trade for Sammy Watkins was bad a lot of people don't agree - including incidently - Rex Ryan.
Wayne Cubed Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 What, Urbik is awful, and only a slight upgrade to Richardson. Like I said, i never saw Richardson pushed 5 yards into the backfield by some scrub Raider DT. Well, it has been reported that Marrone didn't want to trade away the 2015 first round pick on a WR! He sure didn't use the WR that Whaley traded for in Mike Williams very much now did he? He didn't use the RB in Bryce Brown that Whaley traded for very much either, now did he? This is exactly where I think the dysfunction, and friction begins in that Whaley didn't go over the offensive changes with Marrone, or we might have seen better usage of some of those players. Plus, we might have seen some higher quality players then the ones brought in for the line. Who's decision was it to start Richardson? Marrone's. He could have just as easily started Urbik, who as much as you want to say is a slight upgrade, is in fact a good upgrade. Nope, he didn't. And for four weeks the Buffalo line suffered. Hilarious that you don't remember just how bad Richardson was.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Player talent Kirby! Defensive side fine. Offensive side poor. From EJ to trading away a #1 pick for a player other then a franchise QB. Why wasn't anyone able to recognize what a great draft 2014 was for WR's Very poor O line acquisitions for two years now. Bill Polian mentioned he would need to change some of the scouts, and I believe this to be true considering whats happened with the offense for the past two years. I don't trust the current scouts or Whaley to find offensive free agents or offensive players in the draft. I don't necessarily disagree that they need to do a better job finding talent on the offensive side. With that being said there is no confusion as to where that falls. It falls on Whaley & his staff.
billsfan1959 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Cute picture, "Fear". In context, all Whaley was saying is that he and Rex will thrash things out (as Gailey and Nix did) and if they can't agree, they will not hesitate to take it to the appropriate level of higher authority. I wouldn't infer from that statement that he doesn't know where different decisions should go. Then the question becomes does their higher level of authority have the appropriate expertise to referee? That's a fair question. I'm just not sure a Football Czar would automagically fix things, especially if he were the wrong guy. No guy > wrong guy IMO. What I would like to understand is this notion that Whaley was the decision maker behind letting Levitre and Rhinehart walk, trading SJ, the FA and draft decisions that were made? Are we just basing this off a couple of media snippets about how there was friction between Whaley and Marrone? If that's the case, can we also pay attention to other media snippets about how St Doug was a control freak and would "go off" at small things - chew out reporters whose piece he didn't like, control video clips on buffalobills.com? That he "held grudges" such as benching Goodwin because he was injured? Maybe the friction because Whaley didn't say "yes sir" and salute? I'd like to point out, that the sort of players drafted for offense changed dramatically when Gailey was fired and Marrone brought in. Previously we had fast, waterbug type guys, Spiller and Graham, who cares if they can play, Gailey can "coach them up" but you can't coach speed. Guards were smaller and more nimble - Levitre is only 6'2". The physical type sought in the draft and FA changed under Marrone - as another poster said, "big lumbering behemoths". I think the probability is very high that they didn't want Levitre and Rinehart because they don't fit the physical prototype Marrone wanted. Henderson and Kouandijo are 6'7". Marrone can "coach them up" on OL. LOL. I think the evidence that St Doug had major input into the FA and draft process is right there in the type of players. SJ is an unconventional route runner and a free spirit - I don't think it's a surprise that Doug wanted him gone. Levitre - too short and light. Rinehart - too light and borderline on height only 6'5". Colin Brown is 6'7". Chris Williams is 6'6". There are only so many guard prospects who are > 6'5" and can actually play. I don't think they were looking for the best draftee or FA guard, I think they were looking for the best FA "big lumbering behemouth" guard. Why? because St Doug wanted it so, and Whaley was attempting to deliver what he wanted. This. I believe the FO went out and got the type of linemen Marrone wanted. He made it perfectly clear, from the very beginning in words and actions, that the OL was his specialty, priority, and "hands on" unit. IMO, the offensive woes of this team rested largely on the performance of this unit. By whatever metrics you choose to measure their performances, it is undeniable that every single lineman either regressed or, in the case of rookies, failed to appreciably develop in any way. I will wait and see how these players perform under a new coaching staff. At this point, I am more inclined to believe the problem was coaching and schemes, rather than Whaley's abilities as GM.
JohnC Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) "Ryan has control of who plays on Sunday and Whaley has control of who will be on the roster for Ryan to pick for the lineup, leaving plenty of area for conflict. What will happen when those conflicts arise? [/size]“That’s [/size]an interesting question. I think the way we look at it is there’s going to be disagreements, and you want that. You want internal debate, external unity. Does it go to Terry? Does it go to Kim? Does it go to Russ? [/size]Wherever it goes, as long as it’s the best decision for the Buffalo Bills,” Whaley said, via John Kryk of Sun Media.[/size] There is no such thing as an organization being conflict free. It can't happen in the real world of football with so many different evaluations of players and personnel decisions. There is nothing wrong with having conflicting views. Free expression of opinions should be encouraged, not discouraged. The worst thing that can happen to a football organization (or any large orgnanizatiion) is the trap of group think and an attitude and environment of going along to getting along. That's a recipe for complacency and stagnation. In that type of stultifying environment you don't take risks to get better because of the fear of failure. Whaley and Rex are not always going to see eye to eye. Just as Whaley and Marrone would not always see eye to eye. You have to be able handle your differences through professional respect and engagement. That is an area that Marrone struggled with and resulted with him deciding to leave. Whaley is responsible for assemblling the roster and Rex will be responsible for the game day roster and determine how the players are going to be used. It was apparent by the way Marrone used and didn't use some of Whaley's acquisitions that he disagreed with the GM's personnel decisions. Yet Whaley didn't interfere with Marrone's coaching prerogatives when it came to game day decisions. That is how it is supposed to work. It was far from being a harmoneous working relationship between the GM and the HC but the roles were clearly defined. It appears to me that Whaley has little to worry about what his authority is. I don't see anyone interfering with him doing his job. His main concern is the product on the field and how it performs. And that is how it should be. The owner paid $1.4 B for the franchise. You can be sure that he is going to be asking the GM and the HC a lot of questions about what is going on and why decisions are made. There is nothing wrong with that. That is what bosses do. But I don't see the astute new owner making football decisions that fall within the realm of the hired staff. Edited January 16, 2015 by JohnC
Mayhem Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Here's what I consider - the marketing task is harder than you think. The Billls have a season-ticket base of only around 42,000 and their ticket prices are the lowest in the league. More than likely, premium seat and suite revenues are in the lowest tier in the league. The interest is there, but the dollars are not. If I owned the team, I would not accept a complacent marketing staff. It isn't just selling the tickets either. It is the Corporate Sponsorship deals. Look at all the signs for different Companies at the stadium. All the commercials on the Jumbotron. Every gate at the stadium now has a sponsor. The official this of the Bills and the official that of the Bills. All the advertising at St. John Fisher during training camp. It isn't easy selling all of that and also keeping those corporate sponsors happy while trying to keep up with Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder and the like.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Player talent Kirby! Defensive side fine. Offensive side poor. From EJ to trading away a #1 pick for a player other then a franchise QB. Why wasn't anyone able to recognize what a great draft 2014 was for WR's Very poor O line acquisitions for two years now. Bill Polian mentioned he would need to change some of the scouts, and I believe this to be true considering whats happened with the offense for the past two years. I don't trust the current scouts or Whaley to find offensive free agents or offensive players in the draft. Marrone said he wanted huge offensive linemen when he first got the job. That's what Whaley went out and got. That's why Williams was signed. That's why Marrone didn't play Urbik. That's why he put a 6'8 Pears at OG. I assume management got pissed when the OL with huge guys was playing terrible and Marrone was not paying Urbik instead of Pears or Richardson because he was better than them.
thewildrabbit Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 I don't necessarily disagree that they need to do a better job finding talent on the offensive side. With that being said there is no confusion as to where that falls. It falls on Whaley & his staff. Clearly nothing is going to change the current structure of the org in the near future. I was just hoping they would hire a senior adviser or team president to help with those offensive acquisitions, and someone who could make changes in the scouting dept as needed. The Pegula's were going to hire Polian, and didn't get the chance. I for one would still like to see someone with more then two years experience at the top of the football operations chart.
thewildrabbit Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Marrone said he wanted huge offensive linemen when he first got the job. That's what Whaley went out and got. That's why Williams was signed. That's why Marrone didn't play Urbik. That's why he put a 6'8 Pears at OG. I assume management got pissed when the OL with huge guys was playing terrible and Marrone was not paying Urbik instead of Pears or Richardson because he was better than them. Got a link to that KtD? Because if my memory serves it was Buddy Nix who was all about the huge players. We needed a center. We’ve got Ccolin Brown playing there, we’d like not to wear him out and we wanted to get another center. This old boy is as big as a house, too. He plays center and guard. He’s 6’6 ¼” and 330 or whatever and really a better player than people think. He’s a smart guy. He should give us some help. EDIT: Colin Brown is the name missing for whatever reason http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-2/Transcript-GM-Buddy-Nix-Recaps-the-2012-Draft/6f98654b-c06b-418b-b7bf-009f7414b15f That was Nix commenting on how he thought Colin Brown was a better player then anybody thinks... and probably why the team didn't renew his contract this year. The reason I don't think it was all Marrone was because he was very good as a O line coach in the NFL, and built a very solid line in his time. His ex players rave about how good he was at developing them, and HoF RB Curtis Martin loved him. Time is gonna tell on this one. I was also pointing out that there was definite past friction between the GM & HC to the point of yelling at each other (MFing each other) in the open, and in earshot of a lot of people.Now what exactly were they having a shouting match over? Its also mentioned in the article. "The front office "bristled" how players were being used, Cujo, WR Robert Woods being benched, and that they were at odds over OG Kraig Urbik. Sounded to me like a lot had to do with the players on the line. http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24695455/buffalo-tension-boils-over-in-shouting-match-for-marrone-bills-officials Edited January 16, 2015 by FeartheLosing
John from Riverside Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 The OP's comments all seem to center around not having a Polian in the organization (plz correct me if I am wrong) My question is....exactly what was this position supposed to do that makes you unhappy? - Fire Whaley? Huge mistake...the guy has flat out drafted some good talent....make some excellent trades.....etc. Not every move a GM is gonna make is gonna be a slam dunk....but if you gave Whaley a "QB percentage" I would say the YOUNG MAN is doing quite well. - Hire a coach? They seemed to cover this without having a polian in the organization....they landed one of the bigger fish HC's on the market. I know this is totally my opinion.....but when I saw the video of Rex and his wife getting off the plan the first thing that came to my mind was......this is a highly sought after/respect coach and he actually LIKED the white stuff all around him when he got off the plan......the wife didnt get off the plane and look in disgust at the surroundings because THIS FELT LIKE HOME TO THEM......it might very well be a match made in heaven. - The team is 9-7 based mostly on the back of its defense that you know full well will be at the top of the league again last year. The two things that a football czar was not going to effect whether they were here or not QB.....there is no franchise QB for a football czar to advise the owner to go out and get......are there qbs that can help us? Yes....but there is no game changer sitting out there for the having Fixing the offense......think they did pretty good there.....Roman is a respected OC who has gotten HC consideration and has RECENTLY been deep in the playoffs and to a super bowl What exactly was there for a football Czar to do? You have Rex Ryan have and Whaley on the football side......you have a pretty good marketing guy on the other....they are separate....... The team doesnt seem disfunctional at this point....more like they are just starting to come out from under a cloud of disfunctionality and are in a "arrow is straight up" mode.
eball Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 The reason I don't think it was all Marrone was because he was very good as a O line coach in the NFL, and built a very solid line in his time. His ex players rave about how good he was at developing them, and HoF RB Curtis Martin loved him. Time is gonna tell on this one. And that was what, more than ten years ago? Maybe Saint Doug lost some of his coaching "knack" and became a mouthy know-it-all.
HT02 Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 It looks like the way things have played out the Bills have their organizational structure in place. Brandon runs business operations, Whaley talent evaluation and Ryan runs the players. Ryan tells Whaley where he needs help and Whaley finds the talent. However in summary as you've done a great job in pointing out it does look unbalanced toward the defensive side of the ball. Whaley has done pretty well with his defensive additions, less than stellar on the other side. My guess is that for this season at least we are going to run with the structure in place and hope that Roman has some influence on the talent evaluation on the offensive additions.
John from Riverside Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 It looks like the way things have played out the Bills have their organizational structure in place. Brandon runs business operations, Whaley talent evaluation and Ryan runs the players. Ryan tells Whaley where he needs help and Whaley finds the talent. However in summary as you've done a great job in pointing out it does look unbalanced toward the defensive side of the ball. Whaley has done pretty well with his defensive additions, less than stellar on the other side. My guess is that for this season at least we are going to run with the structure in place and hope that Roman has some influence on the talent evaluation on the offensive additions. I think this might change now based on philosophy of the coach. It was Marrone thinking he knew enough about offense and leaving it to a D coordinator to do his own thing....now we have a Defensive HC who is bring in a veteran OC so perhaps the pendulum swings the other way.
thewildrabbit Posted January 16, 2015 Author Posted January 16, 2015 I dunno, perhaps I did a poor job of writing this post because I'm getting so much feedback in which people are overlooking what I've already talked about, and a lot are reading it and getting it all wrong. Clearly nothing is going to change the current structure of the org in the near future. I was just hoping they would hire a senior adviser or team president to help with those offensive acquisitions, and someone who could make changes in the scouting dept as needed. The Pegula's were going to hire Polian, and didn't get the chance. I for one would still like to see someone with more then two years experience at the top of the football operations chart. Does this help? It looks like the way things have played out the Bills have their organizational structure in place. Brandon runs business operations, Whaley talent evaluation and Ryan runs the players. Ryan tells Whaley where he needs help and Whaley finds the talent. However in summary as you've done a great job in pointing out it does look unbalanced toward the defensive side of the ball. Whaley has done pretty well with his defensive additions, less than stellar on the other side. My guess is that for this season at least we are going to run with the structure in place and hope that Roman has some influence on the talent evaluation on the offensive additions. Thank you on that. With the addition of a senior adviser or team president I'd tend to think we could rely on something more substantial then just "hope".
papazoid Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I dunno, perhaps I did a poor job of writing this post because I'm getting so much feedback in which people are overlooking what I've already talked about, and a lot are reading it and getting it all wrong. Does this help? Thank you on that. With the addition of a senior adviser or team president I'd tend to think we could rely on something more substantial then just "hope". the most important guy is the one with final say over the draft & 53 man roster. right now that is whaley. who seems like a team player and more than willing to listen to his coach & scouts. no "czar" who simply sits back and observes will change that (which is what Polian would have done). whaley is on a very short leash anyways. he has one year to fix the QB situation or he's gone.
Thrivefourfive Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Why isn't a front office more like a coaching staff - HC/OC/DC. You have your scouts for offensive and defensive postions and those guys meet with the "VP of Offensive Operatoins" and VP of Defensive Operations". Whaley can hold both titles - GM and VP of DO, since he's proven to be a very good eye for that talent. Brandon takes care of the numbers. The organizational structure of the mafia would work just fine with all capos and the number 1 field general, REX, reporting to the Pegulas. Now that's Family. Ground breaking stuff...I know.
Jauronimo Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Why isn't a front office more like a coaching staff - HC/OC/DC. You have your scouts for offensive and defensive postions and those guys meet with the "VP of Offensive Operatoins" and VP of Defensive Operations". Whaley can hold both titles - GM and VP of DO, since he's proven to be a very good eye for that talent. Brandon takes care of the numbers. The organizational structure of the mafia would work just fine with all capos and the number 1 field general, REX, reporting to the Pegulas. Now that's Family. Ground breaking stuff...I know.
CodeMonkey Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 I'll only say this -- after his experiences with the GMs in New Jersey, does anyone think Rex would have accepted this job if he thought he was going to have difficulties w/ Whaley and Pegula? Quite the contrary, I think Rex was interviewing GMs and owners and after the interview decided Whaley >>> Dimitroff. Yes I do. Most of all, Rex wants to be a head coach of an NFL team. After Atlanta and SF didn't want to dance, the choices were dwindling. I'm sure he wouldn't have taken the job if he thought it was going to completely suck. He would have just gone to TV. The Bills were not his first choice, but that is no big deal and no reason for anyone to get their panties in a bunch. He is still a name, will certainly get press coverage, and will undoubtedly give the job his all.
Kirby Jackson Posted January 16, 2015 Posted January 16, 2015 Why isn't a front office more like a coaching staff - HC/OC/DC. You have your scouts for offensive and defensive postions and those guys meet with the "VP of Offensive Operatoins" and VP of Defensive Operations". Whaley can hold both titles - GM and VP of DO, since he's proven to be a very good eye for that talent. Brandon takes care of the numbers. The organizational structure of the mafia would work just fine with all capos and the number 1 field general, REX, reporting to the Pegulas. Now that's Family. Ground breaking stuff...I know. Personnel departments are split between college and pro staffs. It is easier to judge a player vs. a level of competition than a side of the ball. For example if someone were scouting Garrett Grayson and Brian Hoyer this offseason it would be really difficult to compare the play of the 2.
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