I'm sorry, but I think we took a big step back

[GunnerBill]

Also pigeon holding yourself to a offensive or defensive coach based on whichever side you were weaker at that season is pure idocy. You go get the best leader you can find and if he coaches the side of the ball you are good at, so be it.

The logic that if you just hire an "offensive guy" and he will fix the offense is pretty much the worst logic there is.

 

I think this misrepresents some of the arguments - it certainly misrepresents mine. I agree that what you want from a Head Coach is a great leader - I also think that what you want is someone who is capable of setting a direction on both sides of the ball and then empowering his coordinators and coaches to deliver that, whilst holding them accountable when they don't.

 

Jim Schwartz was a great coordinator for the Bills but I agree with the perception of Rex Ryan as arguably the best defensive mind in the NFL today. This defense with the talent we have should continue to be a top 5 defense and anyone who watched the Jets last year wil have seen that there was some 4-3 in their scheme even if they were primarily a 3-4 base. I would expect Rex is bright enough to keep a lot of the 4-3 that worked last year whilst I would suspect adding some 3-4 OLB pass rush and disguised blitz packages. I am not worried about us taking any kind of major step back defensively. That is not my problem with this hire.

 

Nor is my problem with this hire the fact we arguably needed more attention on the offensive side of the ball. If you think a guy is a great Head Coach or a potential great Head Coach you shouldn't worry what he coached before. I personally believe that John Harbaugh is second only to Belichick as the best Head Coach in the NFL today and he coached special teams. The skillset of being a coordinator and Head Coach are not the same so their coaching background is not that important.

 

But that point about the skillset not being the same..... that is where my issues with the Rex Ryan hire are. I do not believe he has proven himself to be an excellent Head Coach. He is an excellent defensive coordinator and that is how he ran the Jets - as a Defensive Coordinator in Chief. He called the plays 5 out of his 6 years there - and part of the reason Pettine walked was that Rex wanted to re-take play calling duties from him. Meanwhile his in game management, his clock management, his use of time outs, his knowledge even of what players and one formation groupings were on the field on offense is questionable. In an echo of Marrone in Denver he was once unaware that Schottenheimer Jnr had benched his best receiver for half a game.

 

There is no question that Idzik was a reason behind the slump in New York. But Rex's inability to set a direction on offense and his unwillignness to give up any control over the defense to allow himself to oversee what was going on in all phases definitely hamstrung him. It is ok pointing to when his offense was being at least semi functional with ground and pound and allowing his defense to carry the team to two AFC title games, but you can't ignore his gross failure to get the offense back on track since then. There have been Quarterback controversies each of the last 3 years, sub packags here and trcik plays there and no direction. Can you absolve him of that blame? If you accept that he was Defensive Coordinator in Chief then sure you can..... if you are talking about Rex Ryan the Head Coach? Then no you cannot.

 

The succcess or failure of this coming Bills season will now be placed on the shoulders of Greg Roman - because Rex will be calling the defense and that will be good so he will get a pass regardless. That is not the Head Coach that I believe the Buffalo Bills needed.

[thewildrabbit]

Rex and Roman or Marrone and Schwartz -- which do you prefer?

 

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Neither actually. I would have liked to have seen a team president hired for the football side, and then let him make the decision.

 

Now we are caught up in the very same situation that has plagued the team for 50+ years with the owner making decisions (or in the loop with Whaley, Brandon). Considering the interview was at the owners house in Boca...Same Stuff, different city.

 

 

If Bill Polian had been hired he stated he would have needed to make changes to the scouting dept, and probably brought in ex Charger GM AJ Smith who is a senior executive with the Washington Redskins. What does that tell you about the current situation with the Bills FO?

 

I don't see how a man (Ryan) who is literally clueless about the offense / QB's helps in any way with the area of the team desperately needing help. Greg Roman had arguably the very best O line in the game in San Fran, and those players we all very good run blockers. Now fast forward to the Buffalo Bills with arguably the very worst O line in the NFL that has great difficulty in run blocking. Exactly how does the line get improved when the man in charge only made things worse for two years now.

 

This entire scenario is exceedingly frustrating to me.

[HOUSE]

I don't see the need to trash a new coaching staff before the plane even lands in Buffalo.

[thewildrabbit]

 

I think this misrepresents some of the arguments - it certainly misrepresents mine. I agree that what you want from a Head Coach is a great leader - I also think that what you want is someone who is capable of setting a direction on both sides of the ball and then empowering his coordinators and coaches to deliver that, whilst holding them accountable when they don't.

 

Jim Schwartz was a great coordinator for the Bills but I agree with the perception of Rex Ryan as arguably the best defensive mind in the NFL today. This defense with the talent we have should continue to be a top 5 defense and anyone who watched the Jets last year wil have seen that there was some 4-3 in their scheme even if they were primarily a 3-4 base. I would expect Rex is bright enough to keep a lot of the 4-3 that worked last year whilst I would suspect adding some 3-4 OLB pass rush and disguised blitz packages. I am not worried about us taking any kind of major step back defensively. That is not my problem with this hire.

 

Nor is my problem with this hire the fact we arguably needed more attention on the offensive side of the ball. If you think a guy is a great Head Coach or a potential great Head Coach you shouldn't worry what he coached before. I personally believe that John Harbaugh is second only to Belichick as the best Head Coach in the NFL today and he coached special teams. The skill set of being a coordinator and Head Coach are not the same so their coaching background is not that important.

 

But that point about the skillset not being the same..... that is where my issues with the Rex Ryan hire are. I do not believe he has proven himself to be an excellent Head Coach. He is an excellent defensive coordinator and that is how he ran the Jets - as a Defensive Coordinator in Chief. He called the plays 5 out of his 6 years there - and part of the reason Pettine walked was that Rex wanted to re-take play calling duties from him. Meanwhile his in game management, his clock management, his use of time outs, his knowledge even of what players and one formation groupings were on the field on offense is questionable. In an echo of Marrone in Denver he was once unaware that Schottenheimer Jnr had benched his best receiver for half a game.

 

There is no question that Idzik was a reason behind the slump in New York. But Rex's inability to set a direction on offense and his unwillingness to give up any control over the defense to allow himself to oversee what was going on in all phases definitely hamstrung him. It is ok pointing to when his offense was being at least semi functional with ground and pound and allowing his defense to carry the team to two AFC title games, but you can't ignore his gross failure to get the offense back on track since then. There have been Quarterback controversies each of the last 3 years, sub packages here and trick plays there and no direction. Can you absolve him of that blame? If you accept that he was Defensive Coordinator in Chief then sure you can..... if you are talking about Rex Ryan the Head Coach? Then no you cannot.

 

The success or failure of this coming Bills season will now be placed on the shoulders of Greg Roman - because Rex will be calling the defense and that will be good so he will get a pass regardless. That is not the Head Coach that I believe the Buffalo Bills needed.

Great post and it certainly misrepresents mine too. Now the entire job of producing a decent offense will be on the new OC's shoulders. I only hope he is up to the task.

[Wayne Cubed]

Neither actually. I would have liked to have seen a team president hired for the football side, and then let him make the decision.

 

Now we are caught up in the very same situation that has plagued the team for 50+ years with the owner making decisions (or in the loop with Whaley, Brandon). Considering the interview was at the owners house in Boca...Same Stuff, different city.

 

 

If Bill Polian had been hired he stated he would have needed to make changes to the scouting dept, and probably brought in ex Charger GM AJ Smith who is a senior executive with the Washington Redskins. What does that tell you about the current situation with the Bills FO?

 

I don't see how a man (Ryan) who is literally clueless about the offense / QB's helps in any way with the area of the team desperately needing help. Greg Roman had arguably the very best O line in the game in San Fran, and those players we all very good run blockers. Now fast forward to the Buffalo Bills with arguably the very worst O line in the NFL that has great difficulty in run blocking. Exactly how does the line get improved when the man in charge only made things worse for two years now.

 

This entire scenario is exceedingly frustrating to me.

 

What if a football czar or Bill Pollian come in, after Marrone leaves and says Rex is the guy? Is it ok then? Or are they wrong?

[GunnerBill]

That is the last I am saying on it. I'm now going to drink the koolaid watch tomorrow's press conference and throw my weight (which is not as signifciant as his weight) behind Rex Ryan - the Head Coach of the Buffalo Bills. I don't care about being proven right - indeed I want to be proven wrong. But my post above is my honest reaction to the hire.

[Dorkington]

I'm hopeful, but I see much of the same problems that plagued this team last year. Good defense, and mediocre/bad offense.

 

It really will depend on who we pick up in FA/draft on the offensive side, and if we maintain defensive quality by holding on to key players.

 

At this point, it's really on the GM, if we're going to improve or not.

[ThE BiScUiT]

Time will tell on how good or bad this hire is. From my standpoint, every "offensive minded" coaching canidate out there usually has a top flight QB at the helm. So from my stand point, is the player making the coach or is the coach making the player. For example - Adam Gase is a hot name right now. After what I saw Sunday, it appears to me that it's more Manning than Gase making that offense go.

 

Maybe Gase or Riech would come in and make the offense better. But would they make the overall team better? I'm not so sure - see Chan Gailey (who I have tremendous respect for) but let's face it he did a good job with the offense, but overall coaching of the squad was not what it needed to be.

 

I also believe that brining in a 1st time head coach is a bigger step backwards. I'd rather have a guy that's been there before, that has won in the league.

 

For those who don't like the hire, the only point i beleive make sense is that the consistancy is now gone. There is something to be said for this as it takes time to build trust with your team. That argument is valid.

 

The other arguements about Rex being a defensive guy an not knowing anything about offense, to me, don't have merit. Out of all the canidates Ryan has the most experience, has proven he can actually get a team to the playoffs with a subpar offense and a super defense (which is exactly what we have at the moment). Rex is ten times the leader that any other canidate is. Players want to play for him, that's a fact and players respond to him.

 

 

His 1st 2 years he split with the Patriots each season and had a playoff win against them in 2010. Yes he did tail off recently, but He has proven that he can beat the Pats - and can stay competive with washed up talent. He's not afraid of Belichick and Brady.

 

Hes a tough minded head coach. His players will play physical and be mentally tough.

 

There are plenty of reasons to get behind this hire.

[Wayne Cubed]

Time will tell on how good or bad this hire is. From my standpoint, every "offensive minded" coaching canidate out there usually has a top flight QB at the helm. So from my stand point, is the player making the coach or is the coach making the player. For example - Adam Gase is a hot name right now. After what I saw Sunday, it appears to me that it's more Manning than Gase making that offense go.

 

Maybe Gase or Riech would come in and make the offense better. But would they make the overall team better? I'm not so sure - see Chan Gailey (who I have tremendous respect for) but let's face it he did a good job with the offense, but overall coaching of the squad was not what it needed to be.

 

I also believe that brining in a 1st time head coach is a bigger step backwards. I'd rather have a guy that's been there before, that has won in the league.

 

For those who don't like the hire, the only point i beleive make sense is that the consistancy is now gone. There is something to be said for this as it takes time to build trust with your team. That argument is valid.

 

The other arguements about Rex being a defensive guy an not knowing anything about offense, to me, don't have merit. Out of all the canidates Ryan has the most experience, has proven he can actually get a team to the playoffs with a subpar offense and a super defense (which is exactly what we have at the moment). Rex is ten times the leader that any other canidate is. Players want to play for him, that's a fact and players respond to him.

 

 

His 1st 2 years he split with the Patriots each season and had a playoff win against them in 2010. Yes he did tail off recently, but He has proven that he can beat the Pats - and can stay competive with washed up talent. He's not afraid of Belichick and Brady.

 

Hes a tough minded head coach. His players will play physical and be mentally tough.

 

There are plenty of reasons to get behind this hire.

 

Well said.

 

Also lost in all of this, Marrone was an offensive minded coach. Bringing him in didn't improve the offense.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Wayne Cubed

[eball]

Neither actually. I would have liked to have seen a team president hired for the football side, and then let him make the decision.

 

Now we are caught up in the very same situation that has plagued the team for 50+ years with the owner making decisions (or in the loop with Whaley, Brandon). Considering the interview was at the owners house in Boca...Same Stuff, different city.

 

 

If Bill Polian had been hired he stated he would have needed to make changes to the scouting dept, and probably brought in ex Charger GM AJ Smith who is a senior executive with the Washington Redskins. What does that tell you about the current situation with the Bills FO?

 

I don't see how a man (Ryan) who is literally clueless about the offense / QB's helps in any way with the area of the team desperately needing help. Greg Roman had arguably the very best O line in the game in San Fran, and those players we all very good run blockers. Now fast forward to the Buffalo Bills with arguably the very worst O line in the NFL that has great difficulty in run blocking. Exactly how does the line get improved when the man in charge only made things worse for two years now.

 

This entire scenario is exceedingly frustrating to me.

 

Ugh -- Polian and Smith? Can't bring back the 90s, man...

[voodoo poonani]

I see all of this excitement and optimism but I just can't join in. And for the most part, I agree with most of the ESPN commentators when they talk about this change. I think we made a poor decision based upon our situation and are essentially throwing away any progress we made last year.

 

When I think about how the season ended and where we were at in terms of progression:

• Best record in over a decade
• Best defense in over a decade
• Year two of consistency
• Declining Offense with no answer at QB

Based off of that, what did we improve?

• We brought in a defensive minded coach who runs a completely different scheme. A coach that ran a defense that made Kyle Orton look like Aaron Rodgers. I mean, we shredded them TWICE. A defense that was terrible against the run. Also, in making this change, we are going back to playing people out of position and reducing players like Hughes to situational pass rushers
  • This is speculation, but I'm also afraid that we are going to have to waste FA money and draft picks to bring in people to fit this scheme.
• Offensively, we brought in an offensive coordinator who had Kaep regress under his watch. And sorry, but Kaep is better than EJ. They were terrible in the passing game with legit receivers and a Pro-Bowl TE. I get that they played elite defenses, but this is the NFL and no one is a cake walk. He produces a running game, but is based upon an offensive line that probably won't be able to be reproduced here with our talent for a little while.

End of the day, while personnel is a big factor, scheme and coaching is too. When the season ended, would you have wanted the San Fran offense and the Jets defense to replace our team? I would say no 10 times out of 10.

 

I get it. Fresh start, new players to them. But these are big leaps of faith that we can have the running game being promised and that the final 3 years of Rex's coaching career were the anomaly compared to his first 3 years as a head coach.

 

Again, I want to be optimistic but we basically gutted our strength and reinforced our weakness.

I share the aame sentiment. I a few years we will blow it up again. I dont think I will be as invested thia time around. Why jump on the bandwagon if it is on fire?

 

Bills =Sabres?

[YoloinOhio]

It's all good! Good luck to Schwartz, but this was the best move for the long term. The players will thrive; we need to add a DT in FA.

[GunnerBill]

The other arguements about Rex being a defensive guy an not knowing anything about offense, to me, don't have merit.

 

Again - miss the point. It isn't that he doesn't know anything about offense. It is that he doesn't seem to care. He just churned through coordinators and churned through Quarterbacks as though there was a silver bullet magic answer instead of doing something fundamental to set a proper direction or follow through a vision and part of that is, in my opinion based on what I have read and heard, that he won't dedicate the time to it. He has admitted his love and passion for putting together defensive gameplans.... that is where given a choice he would rather spend his time.

[ThE BiScUiT]

I share the aame sentiment. I a few years we will blow it up again. I dont think I will be as invested thia time around. Why jump on the bandwagon if it is on fire?

 

Bills =Sabres?

Marrone opted out - we needed to hire a new a coach - I don't think anyone blew this up - it's jus thte circumstances.

 

If you wanted an offensive minded head coach that's fine, but that won't change the personnell. We still have the same talent - regardless of the who coach is.

 

People complain that we need someone to develop EJ - I've watched the kid for years, he's been the same player since he started at FSU - great physical talent, but inaccurate. Adam Gase or Darrell Beavell is going to change that. What helps EJ is having a solid running game and using play action to give him easy reads and easy throws. Maybe even a little read option. Point being that an offensive guy is not going to come in here and totally turn around the offense into a downfield passing attack, not with this personnel.

 

So let's say we draft a qb or sign a free agent. I get the point that maybe Rex can't develop a young guy. But honestly, there are 10-15 QB's in the league right now that I would consider above average in the league, maybe fewer if you think Manning and Brees are on their way out. From my perspective, at that position, the guy either has it or he doesn't. See Jon Gruden, Chris Palmer and Mark Trestmen who considered themselves QB guru's. At the position, I believe it's more about the player than coaching. Yes, there is some coaching that is needed to understand schemes and reads (which I think Rex can help with better than anyone else). But aside from that you need to be able to be accurate and throw the football. Dan Marino and Kelly probably didn't have the best foot work in the pocket (from a technical standpoint), yet they were accurate with the football. And were successful in any system they played. If Bill Belichick was available, yea you go hire him. But with what was out there, I'd rather go with a guy whose done it before than take a chance on a coordinator that has had success with talanted teams. Aside from Todd Bowles who I belive is the best available guy out side of Rex, each canidate has either had great talent around them. Obviously, if we hired bowles who did more with less last year, we would still be having the same discussion.

 

Point is if we hit on a QB the offense will be better no matter who is coaching. Defensive guy or offensive guy it won't matter. What will matter is if we have someone who can lead and get his team ready to play. And if we don't hit on a QB, then we have the right guy to get this team to where we want to go (the playoffs) because again he's already done it.

 

 

Now as for as the team president thing. I believe in, Whaley he has upgraded the talent on this team. That's undeniable. If we brought ina new front office, wouldn't that now be blowing things up even more? I think you give Whaley a chance. Remeber, he has brought in veteren QB's and drafted one. Since he took over, there hasn't been a qb on the market that was above average, nor has there been a qb drafted that I think is better than what Kyle Orton is.

 

Time will tell with Bridgewater and Carr - I agree there is potential there, but I think overall its a crap shoot picking that position (again see Brian Billick who rotated QB's for years in Baltimore and couldn't find one. His claim to fame was his offensive mind, but let's not forget it was the defense that won him a superbowl, not the offense. His offense in the super bowl year was terrible. I believe there was a strech where they didn't score a TD on offense for a few games.

 

It's mind boggling to me how people could be so down on this hire.

[Dibs]

 

There may have been less running attempts, but I'd doubt it's a very big number. The TRUE barometer is the YPC and the Jest held opponents to 3.8 yards per carry. We were over 4. Not that it's a huge difference as I think our run D was fine, but it's a stretch to say the Jest had a bad run defense. They didn't.

 

GO BILLS!!!

For his 6 years at the Jets their YPC D was ranked 4, 3, 7, 21, 1, 6.

 

I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that his defenses can't stop the run.

[thewildrabbit]

 

What if a football czar or Bill Pollian come in, after Marrone leaves and says Rex is the guy? Is it ok then? Or are they wrong?

I know I'd feel a whole lot better about the future of the team going forward had the owner hired a czar or Polian first, and then they made the decision on Ryan. Right now it looks to me like Brandon, Whaley helped push the new owner into this decision for obvious reasons.

 

I get that Ryan will have the Bills defense playing as well or even better then Schwartz / Pettine had them playing. In my view this doesn't equate to beating the Patriots 2x, winning the division or even a winning record. Look at Ryan's record against Belichick, 3-9 over 6 seasons, and 1-7 over the last 4. This was with his Jets defense being in the top ten every year.

 

Whats mind boggling to me is how many are jumping on the bandwagon for a 4-12 coach. I look at Ryan and see a loud mouthed buffoon who didn't keep his promises to win a super bowl with the Jets. At the end of his time with the Jets he was just a fading soundbite with no credibility.

[ThE BiScUiT]

 

Again - miss the point. It isn't that he doesn't know anything about offense. It is that he doesn't seem to care. He just churned through coordinators and churned through Quarterbacks as though there was a silver bullet magic answer instead of doing something fundamental to set a proper direction or follow through a vision and part of that is, in my opinion based on what I have read and heard, that he won't dedicate the time to it. He has admitted his love and passion for putting together defensive gameplans.... that is where given a choice he would rather spend his time.

I see your point. But I think that's how a lot of coaches are. Outside of belichick, I think a lot of head coaches focus on one side of the ball and trust their coordinators to run their respective units. But remember Marrone opted out, we needed a new coach. If you bring and offensive guy in, with the current personnel, there's no garrantee that the offense is going to perform any better than what Greg Roman will produce - you have to wait and see.

Personnally, I think Roman will make sure he uses his personnel to play to their strengths, and in turn will get more out of them. But again we have to wait and see.

 

The point I'm making as that a HEAD COACH needs to motivate, needs to be an alpha male (meaning he's respected, feared and liked all at the same time) and needs to be mentally tough. I think that is exactly what Ryan is. On top of that he already has experience being in the exact situation he's in right now, and he WON!

 

To your point, if you bring in a current OC, I think you'll have the exact same issue. And as I said the one good thing is that Schwartz is probably sill here to coach the defense s o you remain consistent. I give you that. But, again, these OC do not have a track record of being able win as a head coach - It's a different job no matter what you focus on in terms of game planning.

 

 

My point is that there are valid arguements on both sides. No matter who we hired there's going to be pros and cons. I'm just saying lets make sure we look at the whole thing.

[CodeMonkey]

I know I'd feel a whole lot better about the future of the team going forward had the owner hired a czar or Polian first, and then they made the decision on Ryan. Right now it looks to me like Brandon, Whaley helped push the new owner into this decision for obvious reasons.

 

I get that Ryan will have the Bills defense playing as well or even better then Schwartz / Pettine had them playing. In my view this doesn't equate to beating the Patriots 2x, winning the division or even a winning record. Look at Ryan's record against Belichick, 3-9 over 6 seasons, and 1-7 over the last 4. This was with his Jets defense being in the top ten every year.

 

Whats mind boggling to me is how many are jumping on the bandwagon for a 4-12 coach. I look at Ryan and see a loud mouthed buffoon who didn't keep his promises to win a super bowl with the Jets. At the end of his time with the Jets he was just a fading soundbite with no credibility.

He is the Bills coach. Therefore he gets the support, even from those who thought he sucked when the Bills beat him and his Jets defense twice not long ago. We will see how it plays out.

Edited January 13, 2015 by CodeMonkey

[GunnerBill]

Oh I agree there are arguments on both sides. I don't agree most Head Coaches are entirely focused on one side and leave the other side just to their coordinator though. I don't think any of the best Head Coaches currently working in the NFL are that way. I think Rex is that way far more than most. I didn't care whether the new Head Coach came from an offensive background, a defensive bacjground or a special teams background. I wanted more than the motivator you discribed... I wanted a guy who can motivate and manage. And it is 4 years since Rex won by the way, he is a below .500 Head Coach.

[NewEra]

I think I would've preferred a Schwartz promotion over hiring Rex. Rex is as clueless as Marrone on O.

Ahhhhh, now Marrone is clueless? Too funny;