thewildrabbit Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) In 2009 Rex Ryan inherited a pretty good team from Eric Mangini that already had a a bunch of good players on both sides of the ball, a solid O line as DaBrick, and Mangold were drafted in 2006 under Mangini.Then the next year it was under Mangini that Darrelle Revis was drafted by the Jets in 2007. Mangini was fired by the Jets after taking them to a 9-7 finish in 2008. That first season for Rex Ryan with the Jets in 2009 they only drafted 3 players in that years draft, and they were all offensive In QB Sanchez, RB Shonn Greene, and OG Matt Slauson . So that #1 overall defense came from previous drafts. In his first season he drafted Mark Sanchez, and went to the conference championship with a record of 9-7 as a wildcard. The managed that by pounding the rock, and playing great defense. The Jets did the same the very next year at 10-6, and went to the conference championship. For whatever reason the Jets got away from what made them a formidable team in pounding the rock, as they kept asking the QB to throw more while they ran less. **Then they went 6-10 in 2012. **They went 8-8 in 2013. They went 4-12 in 2014. That's right, 4-12 in 2014. The more important stat is that whatever Ryan was doing the first two years he lost his vision, and stopped doing. To those fans who think that Rex Ryan will now give the New England Patriots / Bill Belichick- Tom Brady fits. Rex Ryan's Jets went 1-7 against New England the last four years. 2014 0-2 2013 1-1 2012 0-2 2011 0-2 2010 2-1 * 2-1 when the Jets beat the Pariots in a wildcard game 28-21 2009 1-1 The final result is 4 wins vs 9 losses against the Patriots in six years. Bottom line: Rex Ryan lost his vision as to what was working that even got him to the playoffs the first two years, and that was pounding the rock and playing great defense. Those first two years the Jets ran the ball more then they threw it, and the next four threw more then they ran. Don't blame this all on his personnel either because his decline started with Mike Tannenbaun as GM, and only got worse under Idzik. The more they tried to force Mark Sanchez to throw the worse they looked, and ultimately got rid of him after 2012 because the Jets no longer had confidence in his abilities as an NFL QB. Now under Chip Kelly, (who I think is an offensive genius) has Sanchez throwing more then his team is running it, and managed to get a 4-4 record out of Mr Buttfumble. This doesn't mean that Sanchez can come to Buffalo and find success. BTW, The John Harbaugh Baltimore Ravens have had the key to beating Bill Belichicks Patriots 2009 1-1, and that win was in the playoffs.In 2012 he went 2-0 to win the super bowl. He has an overall 3-5 record against the Patriots Edited January 13, 2015 by FeartheLosing
Casey D Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Is it not fair to say that the poster who originally said he'd be happier with Schwartz might have been thinking that the continuity of staying with someone inside the organisation after a winning season was more of an advantage than a Head Coach with a marginally better track record? Sure. The one sure thing at TBD is that players and coaches come and go for the Bills, and someone is unhappy if there are changes and some are unhappy if there are not changes. I like continuity too, but that went out the door with the Pegulas coming in and Marrone checking out. I liked JS, but I think it is hard to believe that his coaching skill had more to do with the success of the defense than the talent. Pettine's defense was good too. So as to defense, I think continuity is overated, and we need the best head coach we could get. On that scale, RR is viewed generally as being a much better head coach than JS. Maybe that's unfair, but it is reality. If we had made JS head coach, some people would have been happy, but lots more would have said we hired a failed retread. It's the way of TBD. In 2009 Rex Ryan inherited a pretty good team from Eric Mangini that already had a a bunch of good players on both sides of the ball, a solid O line as DaBrick, and Mangold were drafted in 2006 under Mangini. Then the next year it was under Mangini that Darrelle Revis was drafted by the Jets in 2007. Mangini was fired by the Jets after taking them to a 9-7 finish in 2008. That first season for Rex Ryan with the Jets in 2009 they only drafted 3 players in that years draft, and they were all offensive In QB Sanchez, RB Shonn Greene, and OG Matt Slauson . So that #1 overall defense came from previous drafts. In his first season he drafted Mark Sanchez, and went to the conference championship with a record of 9-7 as a wildcard. The managed that by pounding the rock, and playing great defense. The Jets did the same the very next year at 10-6, and went to the conference championship. For whatever reason the Jets got away from what made them a formidable team in pounding the rock, as they kept asking the QB to throw more while they ran less. Then they went 8-8 in 2012. They went 6-10 in 2013. They went 4-12 in 2014. That's right, 4-12 in 2014. The more important stat is that whatever Ryan was doing the first two years he lost his vision, and stopped doing. To those fans who think that Rex Ryan will now give the New England Patriots / Bill Belichick- Tom Brady fits. Rex Ryan's Jets went 1-7 against New England the last four years. 2014 0-2 2013 1-1 2012 0-2 2011 0-2 2010 2-1 * 2-1 when the Jets beat the Pariots in a wildcard game 28-21 2009 1-1 The final result is 4 wins vs 9 losses against the Patriots in six years. Bottom line: Rex Ryan lost his vision as to what was working that even got him to the playoffs the first two years, and that was pounding the rock and playing great defense. Those first two years the Jets ran the ball more then they threw it, and the next four threw more then they ran. Don't blame this all on his personnel either because his decline started with Mike Tannenbaun as GM, and only got worse under Idzik. The more they tried to force Mark Sanchez to throw the worse they looked, and ultimately got rid of him after 2012 because the Jets no longer had confidence in his abilities as an NFL QB. Now under Chip Kelly, (who I think is an offensive genius) has Sanchez throwing more then his team is running it, and managed to get a 4-4 record out of Mr Buttfumble. This doesn't mean that Sanchez can come to Buffalo and find success. BTW, The John Harbaugh Baltimore Ravens have had the key to beating Bill Belichicks Patriots 2009 1-1, and that win was in the playoffs.In 2012 he went 2-0 to win the super bowl. He has an overall 3-5 record against the Patriots Do you really believe this convoluted BS about losing his vision. Pure sophistry.
CardinalScotts Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Neither actually. I would have liked to have seen a team president hired for the football side, and then let him make the decision. Now we are caught up in the very same situation that has plagued the team for 50+ years with the owner making decisions (or in the loop with Whaley, Brandon). Considering the interview was at the owners house in Boca...Same Stuff, different city. If Bill Polian had been hired he stated he would have needed to make changes to the scouting dept, and probably brought in ex Charger GM AJ Smith who is a senior executive with the Washington Redskins. What does that tell you about the current situation with the Bills FO? I don't see how a man (Ryan) who is literally clueless about the offense / QB's helps in any way with the area of the team desperately needing help. Greg Roman had arguably the very best O line in the game in San Fran, and those players we all very good run blockers. Now fast forward to the Buffalo Bills with arguably the very worst O line in the NFL that has great difficulty in run blocking. Exactly how does the line get improved when the man in charge only made things worse for two years now. This entire scenario is exceedingly frustrating to me. tells me Polian would have filled the bills front office with his cronies Mike McCarthy of the beloved packers came to green bay from the 49ers where he was offensive coordinator. Did not interview anywhere else and their offense was ranked 30th what's that say about prior success etc? Edited January 13, 2015 by CardinalScotts
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 OK-- but then your implication is that when adjusting for these other factors, JS's record in Detroit was somehow better than RR's in NY, because the OP likes JS but not RR based on RR's performance in NY. If that is your suggestion, I don't agree. I don't think JS's record as a head coach is good even accounting for circumstances as you suggest. And Ryan went to two AFC championship games, and Schwartz had one one and done playoff exeperience. I agree record is not the only thing--but it is the main thing in pro sports--but that seems like a pimple on a dog's as@, not a very meaningful data point in comparing RR and JS. I just think the winning percentage comparison is skin deep at best.
thewildrabbit Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 To those that think that because the Bills hired a guy who went to 2x AFC championship games as a Wildcard are not understanding that Rex Ryan doesn't have the offensive players needed to have the kind of success he had in way back in 2009-2010. Just want to add that most fans that are happy about the hiring of Ryan are not understanding he LOST his vision of what made those first two years in NY successful. Then, I highly doubt the 2015 Buffalo Bills are going to achieve any kind of ground and pound attack with one of the very worst offensive lines in the NFL. Doug Marrone tried it in 2013 by leading the NFL in rushing attempts, and being #2 in rushing overall. All he managed to do was gain a lot of yards while going 6-10, and the O line was better in 2013. It was way better in 2012, and got worse because they never adequately replaced LG Andy Levitre Now guess what? Here it is going on three years and this GM still hasn't replaced Andy Levitre with anyone near his talent level, and Andy wasn't that good a run blocker.
billsfan1959 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 The more important stat is that whatever Ryan was doing the first two years he lost his vision, and stopped doing. To those fans who think that Rex Ryan will now give the New England Patriots / Bill Belichick- Tom Brady fits. Rex Ryan's Jets went 1-7 against New England the last four years. 2014 0-2 2013 1-1 2012 0-2 2011 0-2 2010 2-1 * 2-1 when the Jets beat the Pariots in a wildcard game 28-21 2009 1-1 The final result is 4 wins vs 9 losses against the Patriots in six years. Bottom line: Rex Ryan lost his vision as to what was working that even got him to the playoffs the first two years, and that was pounding the rock and playing great defense. Those first two years the Jets ran the ball more then they threw it, and the next four threw more then they ran. Don't blame this all on his personnel either because his decline started with Mike Tannenbaun as GM, and only got worse under Idzik. The more they tried to force Mark Sanchez to throw the worse they looked, and ultimately got rid of him after 2012 because the Jets no longer had confidence in his abilities as an NFL QB. Now under Chip Kelly, (who I think is an offensive genius) has Sanchez throwing more then his team is running it, and managed to get a 4-4 record out of Mr Buttfumble. This doesn't mean that Sanchez can come to Buffalo and find success. BTW, The John Harbaugh Baltimore Ravens have had the key to beating Bill Belichicks Patriots 2009 1-1, and that win was in the playoffs.In 2012 he went 2-0 to win the super bowl. He has an overall 3-5 record against the Patriots So, Let me get this straight: Harbaugh is a genius because he has a .38 winning percentage (3-5) against the Patriots with 2 playoff wins in Foxboro, while Ryan is a failure because he has a .31 winning percentage (4-9) against the Patriots with one playoff win in Foxboro?
BillsCelticsAngelsBama Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 We took a big fat step back. Send in the clowns. We had a great 4-3 defense and now we have to retool the 'D' when the offensive offense should be the main focus. Bad hire... Very bad hire
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 OK-- but then your implication is that when adjusting for these other factors, JS's record in Detroit was somehow better than RR's in NY, because the OP likes JS but not RR based on RR's performance in NY. If that is your suggestion, I don't agree. I don't think JS's record as a head coach is good even accounting for circumstances as you suggest. And Ryan went to two AFC championship games, and Schwartz had one one and done playoff exeperience. I agree record is not the only thing--but it is the main thing in pro sports--but that seems like a pimple on a dog's as@, not a very meaningful data point in comparing RR and JS. You're projecting. I think winning percentage is skin deep analysis in this case. There is no implication about who is better.
thewildrabbit Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 What is it with the mentality of this board that ignores facts because they want to believe their shiny new toy is the best in the playground. I posted facts, now deal with them. Do you really believe this convoluted BS about losing his vision. Pure sophistry. Oh, yea. I tried to trick you with all those facts.
Maury Ballstein Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 What is it with the mentality of this board that ignores facts because they want to believe their shiny new toy is the best in the playground. I posted facts, now deal with them. Post it 32,000 more times and cry louder. It'll stick eventually.
GunnerBill Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 What is it with the mentality of this board that ignores facts because they want to believe their shiny new toy is the best in the playground. I posted facts, now deal with them. Oh, yea. I tried to trick you with all those facts. You did get your facts slightly wrong in terms of record. It was 8-8 in 2011, 6-10 in 2012, 8-8 in 2013 (his best coaching job in my mind) and then 4-12 in 2014.
thewildrabbit Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Post it 32,000 more times and cry louder. It'll stick eventually. Great, more snarky responses with no intelligence behind them.
Bubba Gump Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Great, more snarky responses with no intelligence behind them. If the Bills win 10 games next year will you go away....forever? Once you're off the wagon you can't get back on. If you do that, you should be a Pats* fan. Just looking at your avatar tells me all I need to know what kind of Bills fan you are. Edited January 13, 2015 by Not Again
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Post it 32,000 more times and cry louder. It'll stick eventually. The best part is that he changes two sentences, then copy pastes his post into every thread. The ultimate LAMP.
thewildrabbit Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 You did get your facts slightly wrong in terms of record. It was 8-8 in 2011, 6-10 in 2012, 8-8 in 2013 (his best coaching job in my mind) and then 4-12 in 2014. Thanks for pointing that out. I corrected the final results of those two years, and it really didn't have any bearing on whats transpired with his teams over the last four seasons in terms of what made Ryan successful hist first two years. His best coaching job for me was that #1 overall defense in 2009, and they were a terror that season. Although Manning ripped his defense for 377 yards, and 3 TD's in the AFC Championship game. Pierre Garcon had 151 yards, Austin Collie had 123 yards. Revis must have been covering Reggie Wayne in that game.
John from Riverside Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Great, more snarky responses with no intelligence behind them. What you are posting is not more intelligent. Bottom line....there is a REASON that Rex Ryan has been a highly sought after HC in this league.
hondo in seattle Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 We took a big fat step back. Send in the clowns. We had a great 4-3 defense and now we have to retool the 'D' when the offensive offense should be the main focus. Bad hire... Very bad hire Why do we keep revisiting old untruths? While Schwartz liked the 4-3 as his base defense, he was hardly married to it. Rex is not a conventional 3-4 guy. Instead he employs multiple fronts - as do most DCs. Apparently because we'll use 4 down linemen somewhat less often than we did the year before, we'll be overhauling the defense? Most of our players are already familiar with Rex's scheme because they learned the essentials under Pettine. Another considerations is that rex has one of the most successful records in the NFL running defenses. His performance on D over the years has been better than Schwartz's. Since when is upgrading a coach a bad thing?
juno999 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 I recall a lot of bed-wetting when Pettine got hired by Cleveland, and how defense was gonna take a step back changing to a 4-3. There was a lot of bed wetting when the Bills hired Pettine as well. Break out the Depends!
NewEra Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Your logic does not make walking around sense. You don't like RR because he was not that good at NYJ as he was 46-48. But you'd like Schwartz whose record in Detroit was 29-52, a .358 winning percentage. Double standard? I mean it's OK not to like the RR hire, but your thinking is baffling. He's talking in circles.
buffalo2218 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 I see all of this excitement and optimism but I just can't join in. And for the most part, I agree with most of the ESPN commentators when they talk about this change. I think we made a poor decision based upon our situation and are essentially throwing away any progress we made last year. When I think about how the season ended and where we were at in terms of progression: Best record in over a decade Best defense in over a decade Year two of consistency Declining Offense with no answer at QB Based off of that, what did we improve? We brought in a defensive minded coach who runs a completely different scheme. A coach that ran a defense that made Kyle Orton look like Aaron Rodgers. I mean, we shredded them TWICE. A defense that was terrible against the run. Also, in making this change, we are going back to playing people out of position and reducing players like Hughes to situational pass rushersThis is speculation, but I'm also afraid that we are going to have to waste FA money and draft picks to bring in people to fit this scheme. Offensively, we brought in an offensive coordinator who had Kaep regress under his watch. And sorry, but Kaep is better than EJ. They were terrible in the passing game with legit receivers and a Pro-Bowl TE. I get that they played elite defenses, but this is the NFL and no one is a cake walk. He produces a running game, but is based upon an offensive line that probably won't be able to be reproduced here with our talent for a little while. End of the day, while personnel is a big factor, scheme and coaching is too. When the season ended, would you have wanted the San Fran offense and the Jets defense to replace our team? I would say no 10 times out of 10. I get it. Fresh start, new players to them. But these are big leaps of faith that we can have the running game being promised and that the final 3 years of Rex's coaching career were the anomaly compared to his first 3 years as a head coach. Again, I want to be optimistic but we basically gutted our strength and reinforced our weakness. Not sure our strength was gutted, if anything at least, the defense won't lose a step. At best, it'll rise to the #1 defense in the league. The attention the Bills will get from Ryan alone is nice, but I'm reserving judgment on what the Bills do in the offseason and who they go after. If it's a ground and pound offense, the first question is who will be our QB going forward.
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