Cheatriot at it again

[Green Lightning]

So they were creative and it was hard to react to on the fly because the defense wasn't prepared? Sounds like when the Dolphins beat them with the wildcat.

No, not really. Wildcat needed no rule interpretations or last second eligibility announcements. Just a great new wrinkle in formations.

[MattM]

The refs have no obligation to announce anything to you or I. I was simply relaying the verbiage of the rule I read. The ref had to communicate it to 1 man as the minimum.

 

In a loud stadium or if there's mic trouble, or in this case a hurry up- Id guess there's a signal or direct connect and not reliance on stadium pa and the defense having to determine between important announcements and normal jibber jabber

 

Harbaugh also seemed upset about time to locate and adjust, not that they were never told. I'm not sure the refs are required to hold the play so the defense can adjust its matchups and playcalls any more than if a rb splits wide though.

But that's exactly what the rule says--read the last sentence of Art 3, section 1--it mentions not starting the play until the referee is "back in position" after telling the defense, which to me (and Harbaugh) is where they screwed up here, as it sounds like they allowed the snap almost immediately after telling the D who was ineligible.

[OJ's Glove]

I was at the game, and every play where this issue happened, the ref announced to the entire stadium that Vereen was reporting as ineligible. Just because you don't hear it on TV, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I heard it.

 

Vinovich even additionally announced over the PA "Don't cover 34!" (which he shouldn't technically have said as it is direct advice to the defense) because Harbaugh was pissing and moaning and didn't know what was going on. All the referees were in proper position when the ball was snapped.

 

Belichick knew the rule. So did the refs, I guarantee BB asked the refs about it before the game to make sure it was kosher before he tried it. The Ravens coaching staff didn't understand it. The NFL confrmed that everything BB and the refs did was consistent with the rules. Tough darts.

 

Threads like this just showcase stupid blind ignorance and jealous bias by opposing fans. Give it a rest. I appreciate the knowledgable Bills fans trying to educate the haters on this issue.

Edited January 12, 2015 by OJ's Glove

[NoSaint]

But that's exactly what the rule says--read the last sentence of Art 3, section 1--it mentions not starting the play until the referee is "back in position" after telling the defense, which to me (and Harbaugh) is where they screwed up here, as it sounds like they allowed the snap almost immediately after telling the D who was ineligible.

Here's harbaughs quote:

 

We wanted an opportunity to be able to ID who the eligible players were," Harbaugh said. "What [the Patriots] were doing was they announce the ineligible player and then Tom [brady] would take them to the line right away and snap the ball before we had a chance to figure out who was lined up where. That was the deception part of it. It was clearly deception.

from that I take the ref was announcing the player then when the pats huried to the line the defense had trouble figuring out where the 5 ineligible on the line were. There's nothing in the rule about holding the offense so the defense can realign after they see where everyone lines up. It was a legal formation. Harbaugh says it was announced Edited January 12, 2015 by NoSaint

[Fadingpain]

I find this issue very interesting, and yes, this could easily lead to some rule changes in the off-season if a big enough stink is created.

 

By the way, if you think Doug Marrone would have been smart enough to devise this scheme (playing the role of New England) or smart enough to run on the field and complain about it after recognizing it (playing the role of Harbaugh) you are high. He would have just been clueless on either side of this dispute.

 

It's enjoyable to see high level coaching performing at a high level, on both sides of this issue.

And thank God Doug is gone; he effectively fired himself at a time when Pegula was prepared to offer him a contract extension!

 

This is a miracle and we Bills fans are all very lucky on this night.

[Mango]

I think there is a Grey area in terms of cheating. The part that is iffy is if the RB can be ineligible 5 yards outside the tackle. I believe the rule is it has to be last man on the line.

 

If that's not the case not cheating. If the refs are to report it, and didn't timely enough, that's not on NE, that's on the refs.

[Beerball]

I was at the game, and every play where this issue happened, the ref announced to the entire stadium that Vereen was reporting as ineligible. Just because you don't hear it on TV, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I heard it.

 

Vinovich even additionally announced over the PA "Don't cover 34!" (which he shouldn't technically have said as it is direct advice to the defense) because Harbaugh was pissing and moaning and didn't know what was going on. All the referees were in proper position when the ball was snapped.

 

Belichick knew the rule. So did the refs, I guarantee BB asked the refs about it before the game to make sure it was kosher before he tried it. The Ravens coaching staff didn't understand it. The NFL confrmed that everything BB and the refs did was consistent with the rules. Tough darts.

 

Threads like this just showcase stupid blind ignorance and jealous bias by opposing fans. Give it a rest. I appreciate the knowledgable Bills fans trying to educate the haters on this issue.

Thanks.

 

In the future leave words like haters out of your posts. They don't add any value.

[MattM]

Thanks.

 

In the future leave words like haters out of your posts. They don't add any value.

How about, "in the future, don't post here, !@#$?" Look at the guy's screen name, for goodness sake--if that ain't a troll, I've never seen one. Personally, I can't wait until New England* sucks again--will be fun watching all of their front-runner fans go back to rooting for other teams. Did you see Manning today? That will be Brady, too, in two years or less. Father Time is undefeated thus far....

Here's harbaughs quote: from that I take the ref was announcing the player then when the pats huried to the line the defense had trouble figuring out where the 5 ineligible on the line were. There's nothing in the rule about holding the offense so the defense can realign after they see where everyone lines up. It was a legal formation. Harbaugh says it was announced

But there is something in the rule about waiting for the ref to get back in position after notifying the defense before starting play. That may be what didn't really occur here, depending on the mode of communication used.

[Pneumonic]

Not sure what the big stink is ..... Chip Kelly ran such plays this year.

[NoSaint]

I think there is a Grey area in terms of cheating. The part that is iffy is if the RB can be ineligible 5 yards outside the tackle. I believe the rule is it has to be last man on the line.

 

If that's not the case not cheating. If the refs are to report it, and didn't timely enough, that's not on NE, that's on the refs.

There's no rule about the spread - just that you need 7 on the line and the outside two have to be eligible, if I'm remembering correct (regardless both teams and the nfl all agree the formation was legal)

How about, "in the future, don't post here, !@#$?" Look at the guy's screen name, for goodness sake--if that ain't a troll, I've never seen one. Personally, I can't wait until New England* sucks again--will be fun watching all of their front-runner fans go back to rooting for other teams. Did you see Manning today? That will be Brady, too, in two years or less. Father Time is undefeated thus far....

 

But there is something in the rule about waiting for the ref to get back in position after notifying the defense before starting play. That may be what didn't really occur here, depending on the mode of communication used.

Has anyone argued the ref was out of position at the snap?

[4merper4mer]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_Rule5_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf

 

See especially: Section 3, Article 1. Section 2, Article 10 and 11.

 

There was a problem if the referee was not performing Sec. 3, Art. 1 and giving the defense the information and allowing the ball to be snapped. What the Patriots did was legal, but the officials did not officiate the game properly, IMO, giving them a clear competitive advantage.

 

If the Patriots try this again, I hope the officials are instructed properly.

 

Defensively, I think you line up in press and overwhelm the 4 blockers. They are basically playing 10 on 11 and relying on deception (and the officials to help with it) to get uncovered receivers.

 

 

This is why I think the whole thing is bogus and makes the Pats look more like pathetic little turd burglars.

 

Rules are rules and whatever you can do to trick your opponent like a hidden ball trick in baseball or wildcat or statue of liberty are great. The problem I have is that the Patriots purposely did this not just to trick the Ravens, but to trick the game officials too. They counted on the refs being too confused to give the Ravens time to react and this is exactly what happened. If the refs were properly instructed, they would have handled it differently and the Ravens would have had a chance. By the refs acting so slowly, the ravens had to account for more players than any defense has ever had to account for and they had a nanosecond to make it happen.

 

The league should realize that their officials were made to look like bumbling buffoons on purpose by the Pats. It would be real nice to see the league throw in a few timely holding calls against the Pats next week to subtly let them know who is boss. Unfortunately Kraft still seems to be boss.

Edited January 12, 2015 by 4merper4mer

[Sisyphean Bills]

 

 

This is why I think the whole thing is bogus and makes the Pats look more like pathetic little turd burglars.

 

Rules are rules and whatever you can do to trick your opponent like a hidden ball trick in baseball or wildcat or statue of liberty are great. The problem I have is that the Patriots purposely did this not just to trick the Ravens, but to trick the game officials too. They counted on the refs being too confused to give the Ravens time to react and this is exactly what happened. If the refs were properly instructed, they would have handled it differently and the Ravens would have had a chance. By the refs acting so slowly, the ravens had to account for more players than any defense has ever had to account for and they had a nanosecond to make it happen.

 

The league should realize that their officials were made to look like bumbling buffoons on purpose by the Pats. It would be real nice to see the league throw in a few timely holding calls against the Pats next week to subtly let them know who is boss. Unfortunately Kraft still seems to be boss.

 

The Commissioner didn't look overly thrilled to be shown in the stands. Was that a Red Sox cap?

 

And Bill Vinovich is supposedly going to ref the Super Bowl. Hmm.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I know it's usually not allowed here but I gotta say I love it. Brady's comment: read the rulebook! This is a way to avoid the annoying rule that defenses get to sub just because an offense has subbed. It was fun to watch Harbaugh (damn, why didn't I think of this first?) meltdown over being caught with his khakis down.

 

 

Gotta admire Bellys brain, would love to see him as the commanding General in war.

[papazoid]

perfectly legal.

 

 

NFL morning after: Bill Belitrick is a genius

 

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/12/nfl-morning-after-bill-belichick-is-a-genius/

[machine gun kelly]

its not cheating, its smart. as much as I hate to say it but brady is right they did nothing wrong. they exploited a loophole In the rules

I'm with you. Even with young kids, when I coached flag for my boys, if it's in the rules, trickery and creativity just shows your opponent you can take advantage of every aspect of the game. Everyone on this board knows I can't stand Belicheck and Brady, mainly because they keep beating us, but they took advantage of the rules. I love Harbaugh as a coach, but he was caught with his pants down.

 

Belicheck keeps showing us he is the best coach of his era. No one else thought of using this tactic. I think with an off season, the DC will figure out what to do, but for now, they out coached the Ravens.

 

It was too bad as I thought the Ravens for the most part outplayed the Patriots. This will be a good Superbowl. I don't see the Colts beating the Pats, so the Pays unfortunately will make the SB, but they will be the better match against the Packers or Hawks. The NFC in my opinion have the better teams.

[NoSaint]

I'm with you. Even with young kids, when I coached flag for my boys, if it's in the rules, trickery and creativity just shows your opponent you can take advantage of every aspect of the game. Everyone on this board knows I can't stand Belicheck and Brady, mainly because they keep beating us, but they took advantage of the rules. I love Harbaugh as a coach, but he was caught with his pants down.

 

Belicheck keeps showing us he is the best coach of his era. No one else thought of using this tactic. I think with an off season, the DC will figure out what to do, but for now, they out coached the Ravens.

 

It was too bad as I thought the Ravens for the most part outplayed the Patriots. This will be a good Superbowl. I don't see the Colts beating the Pats, so the Pays unfortunately will make the SB, but they will be the better match against the Packers or Hawks. The NFC in my opinion have the better teams.

Even more than taking advantage of the rules - they took advantage of coaches assuming things would be business as usual.

 

This morning on mike and mike they are saying that they saw the refs signal and have had people writing in from Boston that it was announced in the stadium. They also made the point that despite looking funny, the formation dictates who is ineligible regardless and the defense should've simply gone with the 2 outside guys on the line as eligible instead of looking at jersey numbers.

[DC Bills Fan]

agreed. i wish our coaches were that smart. hopefully they are now.

 

Ummm.. The new coach is Rex, so they aren't.

 

Looking at another 5 years of no playoffs!

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

On M&M IIRC, I heard that Saban's (?) team ran it and he and Bill are buddies. No NFL team ran it as far as they knew

[NoSaint]

On M&M IIRC, I heard that Saban's (?) team ran it and he and Bill are buddies. No NFL team ran it as far as they knew

we had a poster in here that said Chip had -- not sure if true.

 

as the one person that wrote in to m&m pointed out, for the ravens its a fundamentals of the game thing. if they KNOW formation rules for the offense, the defense shouldve been able to pick up the person quick (and thats ignoring that they said the ref clearly signaled and people claiming it was announced in the stadium), but i think that they probably rely on simply following the "norm" and ID'ing numbers if needed. im also guessing they didnt have any contingency built into the play call. so the players, even if they identified it fast didnt know what to do with it. teams got on autopilot assuming something like this wouldnt happen and started cutting corners in prep/design and BB nailed them.

Edited January 12, 2015 by NoSaint

[Maybe Someday]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_Rule5_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf

 

See especially: Section 3, Article 1. Section 2, Article 10 and 11.

 

There was a problem if the referee was not performing Sec. 3, Art. 1 and giving the defense the information and allowing the ball to be snapped. What the Patriots did was legal, but the officials did not officiate the game properly, IMO, giving them a clear competitive advantage.

 

If the Patriots try this again, I hope the officials are instructed properly.

 

Defensively, I think you line up in press and overwhelm the 4 blockers. They are basically playing 10 on 11 and relying on deception (and the officials to help with it) to get uncovered receivers.

 

Section 3 Changes in Position

REPORTING CHANGE OF POSITION

Article 1An offensive player wearing the number of an ineligible pass receiver (50-79 and 90-99) is permitted

to line up in the position of an eligible pass receiver (1-49 and 80-89), and an offensive player wearing the

number of an eligible pass receiver is permitted to line up in the position of an ineligible pass receiver,

provided that he immediately reports the change in his eligibility status to the Referee, who will inform the

defensive team.

 

The bolded portion of the above rule is the part of this situation that I question. How does the NFL define immediately? IMO, immediately would be prior to 7 players with eligible jersey numbers joining the huddle. It appeared to me that Vareen told the ref as he was running up to the line so by the time the announcement was made, the offense was ready to snap the ball and did so seconds later. That is the only aspect of this situation that I take issue with. I don’t feel the Pats* immediately informed the refs. Then again, I’ve really never paid that much attention to when a player with in ineligible number declares himself eligible to the refs. I always felt like it was before joining the huddle.

 

Belecheat has been doing stuff like this for years. He doesn’t appear to believe in the spirit of any rules, only the literal written definition of them and he will exploit that any chance he gets. Teams have been complaining about the Pats* to the league office for years over stuff like this. I do expect some specific clarification to be added to the rulebook this offseason regarding this.