Johnny Hammersticks Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Sammy Watkins gets college open, than an uncatchable ball. I don't want to compare players. I think ODB is great. He may have the best hands in the game, that doesn't take away from Sammy, and what he endured this year. Both will have great careers. I take Sammy all day. That being said, ODB wins rookie of the year. How does he not?! Jeremy Hill might have something to say about that. And if all things were fair, Zack Martin would run away with ROY honors. 1st team all-pro as a rookie? Fuggettabouttit!!
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 237 catches for 3,473. Watkins was holding back Orton and Hackett.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) So let me get tbis straight: You post some stats showing Beckham is more productive than Watkins when targeted, and from that we're supposed to conclude watkins is better than Beckham? Lol OK It's better logic than the type of statements you typically make on this subject. Or maybe we should compare ODB and Watkins ability as defensive backs? They're better suited for that side of the ball after all, right? Edited January 9, 2015 by GreggyT
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Jeremy Hill might have something to say about that. And if all things were fair, Zack Martin would run away with ROY honors. 1st team all-pro as a rookie? Fuggettabouttit!! Agreed. OBJ gets more hype but you could argue Martin was more valuable. They should split rookie of the year at worst.
Billsfan1972 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Ok JTSP, we all agree ODB had the catch of the year/decade/all-time, but does he make that catch vs. Detroit reaching back behind his body, keeping concentration in the middle of the field and tip it to himself, which set up the gw field goal or does it just stick to his hand? How many here have claimed SW drops balls? He dropped 4 all season. It's subjective and yes we see what we want. Every time it seemed SW was about to breakout and have monster stats, KO stopped throwing to him. And targets are a joke when you'd watch KO or EJ throw it behind, over his head OB...... Watching him run clear or used as a decoy was too a joke. ODB is a great receiver, however in the context of the Bills offense he would have looked meiocre and I can't see how his stats/game could have been better. Edited January 9, 2015 by Billsfan1972
todd Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) This is crazy. You really can't compare the two WRs because there are so many differences on the teams, including players and opponents. Making it into an apples to apples comparison is stupid and a complete waste of time. What you can talk about, however, is given the status of the personnel on the team (for example, QB), ask some pertinent questions. 1. Was it wise to draft a WR that high given other needs? 2. Was it wise to spend two first round picks on a WR given other needs? 3. Is it wise to expect and count on first year success from ANY draft pick? 4. How is it possible to completely mismanage important positions (OL, QB) and select a position (WR) that depends on the success of the mismanaged positions? My answers: 1. You shouldn't, unless you are sure that WR will be a difference maker on the team for years to come. You damn well better be 100% sure. (Jury is still out) 2. No, it was stupid given the other needs, and missed opportunity by losing a 2015 first round pick. 3. You should NEVER count on first year success from any draft pick.You can't bank on a rookie being great the first year, but that doesn't mean they will suck. Marcel Dareus is a perfect example. 4. It shouldn't be possible to completely mismanage the QB and OL positions for 2 years and still have a friggin' job, especially when you spend your picks on a WR. A WR is useless when you don't have someone to throw to him, or someone to block for the guy throwing to him. It's like buying a great pair of speakers but using a transistor radio to power them. Useless waste. Edited January 9, 2015 by todd
All_Pro_Bills Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 The question is, all other things equal, would the Bills be better than 9-7 with Beckham instead of Watkins?
peterpan Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Sammy had more than 4 drops on the year. That stat is not accurate.
xsoldier54 Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Beckham wasn't getting much action until the WR corps in NY got decimated by injuries. He then became the go to guy and with great results. My guess is that if he were here, he would have been used much the same as Watkins and the results would have been similar.
zonabb Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Production comes down to QB play and offensive systems/play calling. SW had a far more productive and impressive college career because Clemson threw a ton, LSU did not. SW had two yards less per catch though. Does that make it worse or is it because of the system... lots of screens and quick, short receptions? To me the argument about who is better, what the value of the picks were comes down to context. If you want to just look at stats alone, ODB clearly had the better year. Does that make him better? Does that him the better player when its all said and done? Who has the better QB? Who has the better offensive system?
Cash Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 They must be driving you batty if you think you're being logical here. What would make you think that's a fair assumption, 45 at best? The assumptions being exposed here are your own, that the percentage is so high because of Eli rather than Beckham. If it's Eli, his other WRs will have similar percentages, naturally. Beckham catches 70 of the passes he's targeted with. How about the other Giants WRs? Rueben Randle 71/127 Preston Parker 36/56 Victor Cruz 23/41 Nah, it's Beckham. He is terrific, and he catches everything near him. Don't get me wrong, it helps Beckham to be with Eli and it hurt Sammy to be with Orton and Manuel this year. But Sammy caught 65/128 Woods 65/104 Hogan 41/61 Mike Williams 8/19 Beckham caught a much higher percentage than his fellow WRs. Sammy not so much. Here's another one. How does it make sense that Beckham caught 70% of his targets and Sammy 50.8%, when the Giants QBs completed 63.1% of their passes and the Bills QBs completed 62.7%? It doesn't. Great post. Sammy is legit, and I don't think anyone disagrees with that. He may or may not turn out to be the best WR in his draft class. ODB is very clearly ahead of Sammy after 1 year, though, and it's not even a debate. ODB had the best or second-best rookie WR season in history, depending on how you compare it to Randy Moss' rookie year. Yes, ODB was playing with a better QB and had better offensive coaches. Yes, if they'd switched teams last year ODB's numbers would've been worse and Sammy's would've been better. But on a per-game basis, their number weren't anywhere close: Sammy = 4.1 catches, 61.4 yards, 0.4 touchdowns ODB = 7.6 catches, 108.8 yards, 1.0 touchdowns There's no way to confidently say that Sammy is better based on anything we've actually seen. Not only did ODB put up crazy numbers, but he also looked like the best WR in the league at times. Sorry if saying that makes me a member of the No Homers Club. ("But you let in Homer Glumplich!")
thebandit27 Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Sammy had more than 4 drops on the year. That stat is not accurate. So show us the accurate one then.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I repeat, Odell Beckham caught 20 passes of his 91 behind the line of scrimmage. Automatic completions. Watkins caught 4.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I repeat, Odell Beckham caught 20 passes of his 91 behind the line of scrimmage. Automatic completions. Watkins caught 4. Wasn't one of the few knocks on Sammy coming out of college was that he caught too many passes behind the line of scrimmage? But he was really good at breaking them for big plays? Marrone/ Hackett are masterminds. Don't play to your player's strengths. Genius!
Kelly the Dog Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Wasn't one of the few knocks on Sammy coming out of college was that he caught too many passes behind the line of scrimmage? But he was really good at breaking them for big plays? Marrone/ Hackett are masterminds. Don't play to your player's strengths. Genius! That was another in an endless series of stupid things they did. Oh, and running a fake end around to him 35 times and gave it to him once or twice.
Andrew Son Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 the real question is... How many catches would Sammy Watkins have if he was a Giant? Please make this it's own thread
Billsfan1972 Posted January 9, 2015 Author Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) And we all are in agreement that SW had a very good rookie season, that could have been better with scheming and a qb, yet we lament what we gave up a 19th pick. I don't get it...... How about a QB being excited to play with a great receiver. Add to that as a rookie he was targeted by every defense. As for the 4 drops, I'm sure someone has a better stat and will claim 20 dropped passes? And I don't remember a really bad drop (ie. a long pass or one in open field with room to run. Edited January 9, 2015 by Billsfan1972
Tyrod's Tailor Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 Beckham would have had ZERO because Marrone would have run him into the doghouse for missing training camp with the hamstring.
DC Tom Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 However many he had, the usual suspects here still would whine that he's a bust and we should have traded up for that Watkins guy who's tearing it up with Eli in New Jersey.
Heitz Posted January 9, 2015 Posted January 9, 2015 I repeat, Odell Beckham caught 20 passes of his 91 behind the line of scrimmage. Automatic completions. Watkins caught 4. From the "four things" thread: At Clemson, he was utilized on a variety of quick screens that allowed him to showcase his incredible burst, vision and running back-esque agility. The NFL is a slight step up from the ACC, but Watkins was given the football on just four screens ALL SEASON in Buffalo. That's not enough. Not even close. He received a reverse in Week 17. Whoopie! Head, exploding.
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