Dante Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Ok traditional sauce. Here is how I do it but would really like to compare with others. I love pasta and meatballs so I like refining my sauce when I can. Are there any missteps in my recipe or additions? 6 cans whole tomatoes 2 cans tomato sauce 2 cans tomato paste 4 or so sweet onions 1 whole garlic 3 or 4 bay leaves 2 bunches Fresh oregano 2 bunches fresh thyme 2 bunches fresh basil 2 bunches fresh Italian parsley 2 cups red wine Romano or Parmesan cheese rinds if I have them Onions and garlic in the pot first until soft. Tomatoes and sauce, All my herbs except for basil and parsley. That goes in near the end. Some more garlic and wine near the end as well. One of our customers is a retired chef and gave me a tip about the cheese rinds. Cook them with the sauce and it seems to improve it. Really curious how others do this. I do a traditional veal/pork/beef meatball and I'm very happy with it as well. Also fresh pasta is the only way to go. We don't actually make our own but buy the fresh stuff at the store. Very much worth, imho, the small extra cost. Edited January 8, 2015 by Dante Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 http://youtu.be/bUe35UReX4E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nervous Guy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 hmmm...that rind angle is interesting, never thought of it....a simple search showed me all I've been missing. http://blogs.kqed.org/bayareabites/2009/07/28/if-you-grate-the-cheese-be-grateful-for-the-rind/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Ok traditional sauce. Here is how I do it but would really like to compare with others. I love pasta and meatballs so I like refining my sauce when I can. Are there any missteps in my recipe or additions? 6 cans whole tomatoes 2 cans tomato sauce 2 cans tomato paste 4 or so sweet onions 1 whole garlic 3 or 4 bay leaves 2 bunches Fresh oregano 2 bunches fresh thyme 2 bunches fresh basil 2 bunches fresh Italian parsley 2 cups red wine Romano or Parmesan cheese rinds if I have them Onions and garlic in the pot first until soft. Tomatoes and sauce, All my herbs except for basil and parsley. That goes in near the end. Some more garlic and wine near the end as well. One of our customers is a retired chef and gave me a tip about the cheese rinds. Cook them with the sauce and it seems to improve it. Really curious how others do this. I do a traditional veal/pork/beef meatball and I'm very happy with it as well. Also fresh pasta is the only way to go. We don't actually make our own but buy the fresh stuff at the store. Very much worth, imho, the small extra cost. Well, there are many "recipes" for sauce. So I won't try to nitpick yours, too much. Let me just say, I have no "recipe" I just vibe it. And there are several different pasta sauces I regularly make. Some fresher, quick sauces, and some longer cooking meat based sauces (as I assume yours is based on the recipe and ingredients). But I've been doing it for so many years with my mother and grandmothers, that I kind of know what works and what doesn't. Just a few comments: What is "tomato sauce"? Are you talking about something like Hunts caned tomato sauce? If so, I'd advice losing this ingredient. It adds nothing good and can only corrupt the final product, IMO. It has added sugar (typically in the form of corn syrup) which has no real place in a pasta sauce, IMO. It may have a place in the pantry for quick sauces, but not in this case---again, IMO. As for tomato paste, it often depends on the quality of the tomatoes I'm using and the cooking time I have. For me, there is way too much onion in this sauce. I often make sauce with no onions at all. Or, I will cut an onion in half and then squeeze it out at the end, and take the remaining onion out. Now this is a regional thing, I understand. If you like an oniony sauce, by all means keep them. The garlic may be a tad too much too, but I rarely have an issue with that. I actually prefer to cook with dried oregano. I used fresh for years, but oregano is one of the rare herbs that is actually a bit better used in dry form for most dishes. One suggestion is to use dried herbs early in the sauce prep, and add the fresher herbs toward the end. Just a suggestion, not a criticism. I never put thyme in my sauce. Just an observation. And, I like to make sauce with pork and beef ribs, Italian sausage (typically homemade) and sometimes, chicken thighs (a departure from my mother's preferred method) and meatballs at times. BTW, it is important to really wet the breadcrumbs and maybe even add a bit of liquid to the meatballs, if you are using prepared breadcrumbs. In the old days they used dried bread, which they would soak (sometimes in milk) to soften before making the meatballs. Some people, when substituting prepared breadcrumbs forget that extra liquid, and get hard meatballs. For the record, I love my mother's and sister's meatballs, but I am too lazy to make them, and actually prefer the sausage and the chunks of pork and beef that fall off the bones. (Oh, yes, if you use ribs, don't use boneless--I've made that mistake. The bones/marrow add a LOT to the sauce.) As for the the wine and cheese, I start with a bit or red wine (I can't ever remember measuring it) and then, toward the end go by taste. Maybe a bit more wine. Maybe some Romano (usually some Romano--but real pecorino Romano, not this cow's milk crap make in Wisconsin they call Romano)--but any good Italian grating cheese works just fine. The rinds, if you have them, are a great touch. I save my rinds for this occasion. Of course I assume you add salt to the tomatoes when you first put them in. Don't go crazy, but some salt is necessary. More so, if you eliminate the "tomato sauce" which is packed with salt and sugar. And, did you forget some crushed red pepper? Try adding a bit, at least. Me, I'm a freak show and use really hot sausage and extra red pepper--unless I'm cooking for known wimps. Cooking time is important. When possible I cook my sauce the day before I plan to serve it. The rest in the refrigerator overnight really helps the final result, IMO. As to the pasta, I like both fresh and dried. With a big meat sauce, dried pasta is just fine---assuming it is a good brand and a good shape With fresh, make sure it has some texture. Grocery store fresh pastas can be OK, but some are just horrible (like Contadina--smooth and doughy) others are OK (like Monterey). For red sauce, I'll take a quality dried pasta (like Delverde) over a weak fresh pasta in a heart beat. But by and large, I'd say you have a better start than 90% of people out there making sauce. Edited January 8, 2015 by The Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2014/09/the-best-slow-cooked-italian-american-tomato-sauce-red-sauce-recipe.html for more in depth discussion, full article here. http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/09/the-food-lab-use-the-oven-to-make-the-best-darned-italian-american-red-sauce-ever-recipe.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 If you want to incorporate a couple of my family's favorites...toss in some country ribs, they add great flavor. My grandmother actually used fresh pork hocks and I loved them but the country style ribs suit most people better. Another thing she always added to the sauce was hard boiled eggs. They don't add flavor to the sauce, but the eggs do pick up flavor from the sauce (& kids love them). My grandmother was straight off the boat from Sicily and I think she added those ingredients because they were readily available and cheap. I also frequently add sauage to my sauce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) If you want to incorporate a couple of my family's favorites...toss in some country ribs, they add great flavor. My grandmother actually used fresh pork hocks and I loved them but the country style ribs suit most people better. Another thing she always added to the sauce was hard boiled eggs. They don't add flavor to the sauce, but the eggs do pick up flavor from the sauce (& kids love them). My grandmother was straight off the boat from Sicily and I think she added those ingredients because they were readily available and cheap. I also frequently add sauage to my sauce. I mentioned ribs, as I always use them. But didn't think about the eggs, My grandmother (also from Sicily) did that on occasion. They do nothing for me, so I skip them since, as as you note, they do nothing for the sauce. But my cousins loved them. Nice touch, Beerdude. http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2014/09/the-best-slow-cooked-italian-american-tomato-sauce-red-sauce-recipe.html for more in depth discussion, full article here. http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/09/the-food-lab-use-the-oven-to-make-the-best-darned-italian-american-red-sauce-ever-recipe.html That sauce looks like crap! (Not the pics in the full article, the the one in the first link.) But truthfully, there are as many different sauces as there are regions of Italy---and more. But I'd only use a carrot if using fresh tomatoes that were sub par. Canned San Marzano tomatoes are sweet enough without the carrots, IMO. But that's just me. I prefer using carrots to raw sugar, which i think totally ruins sauce--even a little bit. Edited January 8, 2015 by The Dean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Well, there are many "recipes" for sauce. So I won't try to nitpick yours, too much. Let me just say, I have no "recipe" I just vibe it. And there are several different pasta sauces I regularly make. Some fresher, quick sauces, and some longer cooking meat based sauces (as I assume yours is based on the recipe and ingredients). But I've been doing it for so many years with my mother and grandmothers, that I kind of know what works and what doesn't. Just a few comments: What is "tomato sauce"? Are you talking about something like Hunts caned tomato sauce? If so, I'd advice losing this ingredient. It adds nothing good and can only corrupt the final product, IMO. It has added sugar (typically in the form of corn syrup) which has no real place in a pasta sauce, IMO. It may have a place in the pantry for quick sauces, but not in this case---again, IMO. As for tomato paste, it often depends on the quality of the tomatoes I'm using and the cooking time I have. For me, there is way too much onion in this sauce. I often make sauce with no onions at all. Or, I will cut an onion in half and then squeeze it out at the end, and take the remaining onion out. Now this is a regional thing, I understand. If you like an oniony sauce, by all means keep them. The garlic may be a tad too much too, but I rarely have an issue with that. I actually prefer to cook with dried oregano. I used fresh for years, but oregano is one of the rare herbs that is actually a bit better used in dry form for most dishes. One suggestion is to use dried herbs early in the sauce prep, and add the fresher herbs toward the end. Just a suggestion, not a criticism. I never put thyme in my sauce. Just an observation. And, I like to make sauce with pork and beef ribs, Italian sausage (typically homemade) and sometimes, chicken thighs (a departure from my mother's preferred method) and meatballs at times. BTW, it is important to really wet the breadcrumbs and maybe even add a bit of liquid to the meatballs, if you are using prepared breadcrumbs. In the old days they used dried bread, which they would soak (sometimes in milk) to soften before making the meatballs. Some people, when substituting prepared breadcrumbs forget that extra liquid, and get hard meatballs. For the record, I love my mother's and sister's meatballs, but I am too lazy to make them, and actually prefer the sausage and the chunks of pork and beef that fall off the bones. (Oh, yes, if you use ribs, don't use boneless--I've made that mistake. The bones/marrow add a LOT to the sauce.) As for the the wine and cheese, I start with a bit or red wine (I can't ever remember measuring it) and then, toward the end go by taste. Maybe a bit more wine. Maybe some Romano (usually some Romano--but real pecorino Romano, not this cow's milk crap make in Wisconsin they call Romano)--but any good Italian grating cheese works just fine. The rinds, if you have them, are a great touch. I save my rinds for this occasion. Of course I assume you add salt to the tomatoes when you first put them in. Don't go crazy, but some salt is necessary. More so, if you eliminate the "tomato sauce" which is packed with salt and sugar. And, did you forget some crushed red pepper? Try adding a bit, at least. Me, I'm a freak show and use really hot sausage and extra red pepper--unless I'm cooking for known wimps. Cooking time is important. When possible I cook my sauce the day before I plan to serve it. The rest in the refrigerator overnight really helps the final result, IMO. As to the pasta, I like both fresh and dried. With a big meat sauce, dried pasta is just fine---assuming it is a good brand and a good shape With fresh, make sure it has some texture. Grocery store fresh pastas can be OK, but some are just horrible (like Contadina--smooth and doughy) others are OK (like Monterey). For red sauce, I'll take a quality dried pasta (like Delverde) over a weak fresh pasta in a heart beat. But by and large, I'd say you have a better start than 90% of people out there making sauce. Lots and lots here. Tomato sauce just basically canned pureed tomatoes. I don't think it has corn syrup but I';m going to check. On the onion and garlic quantity I didn't think it was much because I'm using 8 cans of tomatoes. I haven't noticed either being overpowering but I do admit I love both garlic and onions. I do put my basil and Italian parsley near the end. What herbs, beside oregano do you use? As for meat I completely agree. Most of the time I do the meatballs. Brown them and put them and whatever is left in the pan in the sauce and cook a good 6 hours if possible. You are right though, lots of work. Fine chop and saute garlic. Fine chop parsley and on and on. I love the idea of ribs. What type do you use? Short ribs would be unbelievable I think. Instead of red pepper I put in a jalapeno or maybe two at the beginning for some heat. I forgot to mention that in the original post. Thanks for the tips! http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2014/09/the-best-slow-cooked-italian-american-tomato-sauce-red-sauce-recipe.html for more in depth discussion, full article here. http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/09/the-food-lab-use-the-oven-to-make-the-best-darned-italian-american-red-sauce-ever-recipe.html Now that looks good. Have never done one in the oven before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you want to incorporate a couple of my family's favorites...toss in some country ribs, they add great flavor. My grandmother actually used fresh pork hocks and I loved them but the country style ribs suit most people better. Another thing she always added to the sauce was hard boiled eggs. They don't add flavor to the sauce, but the eggs do pick up flavor from the sauce (& kids love them). My grandmother was straight off the boat from Sicily and I think she added those ingredients because they were readily available and cheap. I also frequently add sauage to my sauce. You make fun of me for coming straight off the boat all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Lots and lots here. Tomato sauce just basically canned pureed tomatoes. I don't think it has corn syrup but I';m going to check. On the onion and garlic quantity I didn't think it was much because I'm using 8 cans of tomatoes. I haven't noticed either being overpowering but I do admit I love both garlic and onions. I do put my basil and Italian parsley near the end. What herbs, beside oregano do you use? As for meat I completely agree. Most of the time I do the meatballs. Brown them and put them and whatever is left in the pan in the sauce and cook a good 6 hours if possible. You are right though, lots of work. Fine chop and saute garlic. Fine chop parsley and on and on. I love the idea of ribs. What type do you use? Short ribs would be unbelievable I think. Instead of red pepper I put in a jalapeno or maybe two at the beginning for some heat. I forgot to mention that in the original post. Thanks for the tips! Now that looks good. Have never done one in the oven before. I did a bolognese in the oven recently using the same method and same website as a source. It was pretty amazing. The shot of fish sauce is a great touch in getting that earthy depth of flavor. Scraping down the sides and mixing in all the browned tomato on the surface and edges really makes the recipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Lots and lots here. Tomato sauce just basically canned pureed tomatoes. I don't think it has corn syrup but I';m going to check. On the onion and garlic quantity I didn't think it was much because I'm using 8 cans of tomatoes. I haven't noticed either being overpowering but I do admit I love both garlic and onions. I do put my basil and Italian parsley near the end. What herbs, beside oregano do you use? As for meat I completely agree. Most of the time I do the meatballs. Brown them and put them and whatever is left in the pan in the sauce and cook a good 6 hours if possible. You are right though, lots of work. Fine chop and saute garlic. Fine chop parsley and on and on. I love the idea of ribs. What type do you use? Short ribs would be unbelievable I think. Instead of red pepper I put in a jalapeno or maybe two at the beginning for some heat. I forgot to mention that in the original post. Thanks for the tips! Well if it is pureed tomatoes, that is one thing. Typically "sauce" has other ingredients. I'd check. But crushed tomatoes (or whole tomatoes you crush up with your hands or food processor) should be good enough, IMO---along with perhaps, some paste. I use the same herbs as you, minus the thyme. Bay is very important, IMO, and often omitted from sauce "recipes" (but I use then whole--never could understand the use for crushed bay, unless it is for using in a spice bag). We always used oregano and basil too. I understand oregano isn't that predominant outside of Sicily and southern Italy and many associate it with Greek cooking. Strangely enough, I always assumed basil was used all over Italy--as tomatoes and basil were made for each other. But I was shocked to read Lydia Bastianich (a fabulous chef) who grew up in Pula (very northern Italy sometimes, Yugoslavia sometimes, Coratia sometimes) never used basil growing up. She only discovered it later in life and agrees---tomatoes and basil are a perfect match. [Aside: I made something (can't remember what) and my brother said something to the effect of "too much basil". I have never heard that phrase before, or since.] I'm sure your sauce is great---love to try it sometime. I like trying sauces made by different people from different Italian backgrounds. My father's mother, from Marche, didn't make a particularly interesting sauce, IMO, but man could she bake bread. Also made great homemade pasta and other dishes. The thing that disappoints me is when I go to an Italian restaurant, owned by Italian-Americans, who play up the "mama's sauce" angle---only to find some bland, flavorless sauce you KNOW they don't serve at home---at least to company---on Thanksgiving or some other holiday. I can appreciate sauces that aren't similar to my family's style---but at least make an effort to serve something authentic. And I don't mean it has to be Italy authentic. But even old-school Italian American authentic. Serve something you are PROUD to serve and that you would serve to your grandmother. OK, I'm ranting now---- Lots and lots here. Tomato sauce just basically canned pureed tomatoes. I don't think it has corn syrup but I';m going to check. On the onion and garlic quantity I didn't think it was much because I'm using 8 cans of tomatoes. I haven't noticed either being overpowering but I do admit I love both garlic and onions. I do put my basil and Italian parsley near the end. What herbs, beside oregano do you use? As for meat I completely agree. Most of the time I do the meatballs. Brown them and put them and whatever is left in the pan in the sauce and cook a good 6 hours if possible. You are right though, lots of work. Fine chop and saute garlic. Fine chop parsley and on and on. I love the idea of ribs. What type do you use? Short ribs would be unbelievable I think. Instead of red pepper I put in a jalapeno or maybe two at the beginning for some heat. I forgot to mention that in the original post. Thanks for the tips! Well if it is pureed tomatoes, that is one thing. Typically "sauce" has other ingredients. I'd check. But crushed tomatoes (or whole tomatoes you crush up with your hands or food processor) should be good enough, IMO---along with perhaps, some paste. I use the same herbs as you, minus the thyme. Bay is very important, IMO, and often omitted from sauce "recipes" (but I use then whole--never could understand the use for crushed bay, unless it is for using in a spice bag). We always used oregano and basil too. I understand oregano isn't that predominant outside of Sicily and southern Italy and many associate it with Greek cooking. Strangely enough, I always assumed basil was used all over Italy--as tomatoes and basil were made for each other. But I was shocked to read Lydia Bastianich (a fabulous chef) who grew up in Pula (very northern Italy sometimes, Yugoslavia sometimes, Coratia sometimes) never used basil growing up. She only discovered it later in life and agrees---tomatoes and basil are a perfect match. [Aside: I made something (can't remember what) and my brother said something to the effect of "too much basil". I have never heard that phrase before, or since.] I'm sure your sauce is great---love to try it sometime. I like trying sauces made by different people from different Italian backgrounds. My father's mother, from Marche, didn't make a particularly interesting sauce, IMO, but man could she bake bread. Also made great homemade pasta and other dishes. The thing that disappoints me is when I go to an Italian restaurant, owned by Italian-Americans, who play up the "mama's sauce" angle---only to find some bland, flavorless sauce you KNOW they don't serve at home---at least to company---on Thanksgiving or some other holiday. I can appreciate sauces that aren't similar to my family's style---but at least make an effort to serve something authentic. And I don't mean it has to be Italy authentic. But even old-school Italian American authentic. Serve something you are PROUD to serve and that you would serve to your grandmother. OK, I'm ranting now---- OK here is an example of where the new quote system didn't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 OK here is an example of where the new quote system didn't work. User error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Don't listen to a thing The Dean wrote. All this cooking talk implies he pays his utility bills and therefore has a functional kitchen. Ain't no one believes that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Don't listen to a thing The Dean wrote. All this cooking talk implies he pays his utility bills and therefore has a functional kitchen. Ain't no one believes that! hah..I think Dean must be a pro or former pro chef of some kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickleyjones Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) lots of ways to go in terms of the actual recipe, but IMO, the key is San Marzanos. edit: i buy them at costco here in canada, where they are about 1/4 of the price you will find at the grocery store. Edited January 9, 2015 by dickleyjones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 If you want to incorporate a couple of my family's favorites...toss in some country ribs, they add great flavor. My grandmother actually used fresh pork hocks and I loved them but the country style ribs suit most people better. Another thing she always added to the sauce was hard boiled eggs. They don't add flavor to the sauce, but the eggs do pick up flavor from the sauce (& kids love them). My grandmother was straight off the boat from Sicily and I think she added those ingredients because they were readily available and cheap. I also frequently add sauage to my sauce. I'm making sauce for my daughters birthday meal on Sunday (will make the sauce on Saturday afternoon and let it sit)...with homemade meatballs. Use the same recipe/process as my mom - seems to come ok pretty good. I want to try the pork hock/country rib with this sauce for added flavor. Do you bake the pork hock/country ribs first or just put them in raw and let them cook in the sauce?? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It has been a number of years since I made my own sauce. Last time I did, I used a bunch of fresh tomatoes from my brother in law's garden. I roasted them, which really concentrated the flavor and made for a great base. This thread has inspired me to try to make sauce again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I'm making sauce for my daughters birthday meal on Sunday (will make the sauce on Saturday afternoon and let it sit)...with homemade meatballs. Use the same recipe/process as my mom - seems to come ok pretty good. I want to try the pork hock/country rib with this sauce for added flavor. Do you bake the pork hock/country ribs first or just put them in raw and let them cook in the sauce?? Thanks You can brown them in the same pot you're going to use for the sauce, that way you'll keep all of the flavors. I'd recommend the country ribs. The hocks are all "knuckly" w lots of stretchy parts and not much meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackFergy Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You can brown them in the same pot you're going to use for the sauce, that way you'll keep all of the flavors. I'd recommend the country ribs. The hocks are all "knuckly" w lots of stretchy parts and not much meat. OK. I'll let them brown with the olive oil, garlic, celery, etc then add the other stuff. Thanks (despite what Gugny says, you are useful from time to time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 You can brown them in the same pot you're going to use for the sauce, that way you'll keep all of the flavors. I'd recommend the country ribs. The hocks are all "knuckly" w lots of stretchy parts and not much meat It has been a number of years since I made my own sauce. Last time I did, I used a bunch of fresh tomatoes from my brother in law's garden. I roasted them, which really concentrated the flavor and made for a great base. This thread has inspired me to try to make sauce again. How many tomatoes did you have to roast and how much sauce did it make? Do you peel them before you roast? Using fresh tomatoes has crossed my mind but didn't know if doing that would make enough difference. You can brown them in the same pot you're going to use for the sauce, that way you'll keep all of the flavors. I'd recommend the country ribs. The hocks are all "knuckly" w lots of stretchy parts and not much meat. Next to meatballs the consensus seems to be the ribs or country ribs. Never worked with them but I'm going try them next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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