Marrone a possible candidate for Bears?

[Kelly the Dog]

I could throw that pass with 5 of you as an OL. Nice design.

Not to mention that one of the reasons Watkins was considered by everyone to be lock as a star was because he excelled on those kinds of plays even when the other team knew he was coming.

 

I had thought, originally, in the first 5-6 games that they weren't running those kinds of plays for him because of his ribs, and they didn't want to subject him to unnecessary hits. That is possible, but also a little suspect because they were running slant passes to him which is 10x worse. But after game six or so, they still weren't doing it, and didn't the rest of the season. Another in a seemingly endless series of questionable if not downright criminal decisions for this offense by Marrone.

[Bronc24]

Not to mention that one of the reasons Watkins was considered by everyone to be lock as a star was because he excelled on those kinds of plays even when the other team knew he was coming.

 

I had thought, originally, in the first 5-6 games that they weren't running those kinds of plays for him because of his ribs, and they didn't want to subject him to unnecessary hits. That is possible, but also a little suspect because they were running slant passes to him which is 10x worse. But after game six or so, they still weren't doing it, and didn't the rest of the season. Another in a seemingly endless series of questionable if not downright criminal decisions for this offense by Marrone.

It's like Marrone and Hackett didn't even watch his college tape. Incredible.

[3rdand12]

GG goes BOOM.

 

JohnC , you have been nearly the lone defender ( a little assist from Dave M.) of Marrones use of players.

for that i am impressed. Well done! I dont agree with your points per se but you are a valiant man.

[Kelly the Dog]

It's like Marrone and Hackett didn't even watch his college tape. Incredible.

Or Woods or Goodwin's tape of last year on the Bills, or MWilliams tape of the Bucs, or CJ's tape under Chan, or...

 

Or even Lee Smith's tape (which would have shown that, by technicality, there can never be an actual legal completion to Lee Smith since he cannot complete "a football move" after possession).

[3rdand12]

 

It's not revisionist. Lots of us felt at the time that Chan was doing an awesome job with the offense given the poor OL, QB, and WR talent he had on the roster. If (1) Chan had better players, and (2) found a good DC, he would still be the head coach. Of course, those are two huge ifs.

 

Marrone outperformed Gailey because he had better talent and hired better DCs. The better talent is thanks to the FO. The better DCs may also be due to the FO. For example, when Schwartz was offered the job, I doubt he thought, "Great! I have a chance to work with the legendary Doug Marrone!" More likely, he looked at the loaded Bills defensive roster and couldn't resist the opportunity to coach those great players.

 

Marrone didn't excel in his supposed area of expertise: offense. Both Marrone and Gailey had offenses bereft of OL and QB talent. But Gailey did a much better job with the cards he was dealt.

Gailey was ruined by his defense. not his Offense. Thats a fact. He might have recovered from Fitz injury if the Defense was not setting franchise records under Wannstadt.

Record bad i mean.

Buts thats just theoretical.

 

Not the Wannstadt part though.

Thats why some of us still think Gaileys offense and Schwartzes D could actually make us a playoff team. With an Orton even

Or Woods or Goodwin's tape of last year on the Bills, or MWilliams tape of the Bucs, or CJ's tape under Chan, or...

 

Or even Lee Smith's tape (which would have shown that, by technicality, there can never be an actual legal completion to Lee Smith since he cannot complete "a football move" after possession).

Hilarious if it were not true enough KTD!

[dave mcbride]

GG goes BOOM.

 

JohnC , you have been nearly the lone defender ( a little assist from Dave M.) of Marrones use of players.

for that i am impressed. Well done! I dont agree with your points per se but you are a valiant man.

Seriously, I'm not a fan at all of his offensive design. I just think that the players on the offensive line are basically as bad as Marrone thinks they are. People may hate him, but he does know o-line. He was a good o-line coach for the Jets, and my sense is that he did a lot of o-line coaching at NO, which featured the #1 offense in the NFL in 2 of the 3 years he was there.

[3rdand12]

Seriously, I'm not a fan at all of his offensive design. I just think that the players on the offensive line are basically as bad as Marrone thinks they are. People may hate him, but he does know o-line. He was a good o-line coach for the Jets, and my sense is that he did a lot of o-line coaching at NO, which featured the #1 offense in the NFL in 2 of the 3 years he was there.

Well i am not drawing a line as an either or with Marrone for sure. Thats why its good dialogue .

 

But i cant get behind what he had as players on the roster a defense for him. Not that you are defending him !

 

The O line was so painful to watch this year. It just cant be player regression. I feel it was both bad decision making by whoever was deciding to run those formations and piss poor execution by the players.

It still comes down to Marrone. He just seemed stubborn to me . Like exceeedingly inflexible this year.

But to your point even adequate player or guys like mangold might have flourished. speculation though as my Gailey opinion is. if and what ifs at this point for me.

Next !

[GG]

Seriously, I'm not a fan at all of his offensive design. I just think that the players on the offensive line are basically as bad as Marrone thinks they are. People may hate him, but he does know o-line. He was a good o-line coach for the Jets, and my sense is that he did a lot of o-line coaching at NO, which featured the #1 offense in the NFL in 2 of the 3 years he was there.

 

On paper he looked good. But you can't argue with a lot of the head scratching decisions he made with the OL in 2014. Compare him to other Bills or other teams OL coaches. Who wouldn't have at least experimented with putting Hairston back in the line up in a position he was serviceable two years ago? Why continue feeding Henderson to the wolves and have an out of position RG next to him?

 

Yes, the personnel wasn't ideal. The coaching decisions made them worse.

 

I don't need any more proof than the Urbik experience. It shouldn't have taken 4 games to realize Cyril shouldn't be on the field.

[purple haze]

What creative strategy would you have employed to compensate for linemen who couldn't block and move and a qb who couldn't play? If you are in a race with a horse that is lame how do you compensate for its limitations? The results you get are attributable to the horse's deficiencies not the instruction the jockey got before the race.

 

Marrone took the best strategy under the circumstances he was subjected to. He took a more conservative approach on offense and relied on his defense to keep his team in games. Some may consider it an uncreative response but in reality it was a prudent approach to take.

 

What could be more foolish tha asking your OL and qb to do things that they are incapable of? No matter what creative strategy you advocate for it will not work unless the OL and qb positions are dramatically upgraded. Success in this league is predicated on talent level, not about genius strategy concocted by some svengali coach who magically devises a plan to compensate for his team's glaring weaknesses.

 

Doug Marrone got a team with the worst OL in the league and the worst starting qb in the league to a 9-7 record. What more do you want? He got the team to play to its talent level. For that accomplishment many people are characterizing him as a befuddled fool. Yet the same HC who is unmercifully being maligned is the person that the organization wanted back.

Tim Graham said that the Pegula's DID NOT offer St. Doug an extension and were pissed off that he asked for one. So, did they want him back?

 

What is foolish is not properly utilizing the talent on hand. Bills have trouble scoring in the red zone, so Mike Williams, a proven red-zone threat over five years in the NFL is inactive on game days so Marrone can run a 3 TE set, employ an extra kicker, etc. Maybe some of those Orton overthrows in the KC game would have been the winning TD if Williams was in the game.

 

Spiller, a guy that Gailey seemed to manage to get into space, kept being run up the gut with that terrible O-line. It took getting to the N.E. game for us to see Spiller split out at WR. Why no motion? Why not use him out wide and in the slot? They used Bryce Brown in the passing game in ways they did not use Spiller, who is faster and shiftier with the ball in space.

 

In spite of most of their wins including a big game from Sammy Watkins, the game plans on losing weeks seemed to blatantly ignore Watkins, or use him as a decoy. Ran that fake jet sweep to him many times. Actually handed it to him twice that I saw over the course of the season. Why is he not going in motion? Why not line him up in the backfield? Why not make a concerted effort to get him the ball. Yes, the QB play was very uneven. But part of Sammy's "lack of success" is game plan related. As bad as the QB play was he still had 60something catches for almost a thousand yards. Imagine if they made an effort to get him the rock.

 

Marrone wasn't all bad. But he did not use players well. His in-game adjustments on O seemed non-existent. The best thing he did was hire very good Defensive Coordinators and stay out of their way.

 

You are making too many excuses for him. True the O-line was a mess. I wonder if he had a hand in that mess? That bad O-line was the there for the 7 losses and the 9 wins too. So obviously the Bills could win in spite of them. Maybe if the coach had been more aggressive..?

Edited January 10, 2015 by purple haze

[Kelly the Dog]

Good analysis, purple haze. Good to see all that LSD, heroin, hashish and spliffs didn't cloud your judgment.

[BuffaninATL]

great post Purple Haze.... what is interesting to me is that Marrone continued to show spiteful behavior toward Whaley's personnel choices (Sammy, MWilliams, BBrown) while at the same time exhibiting self-survivalist tendencies (i.e., not playing EJ in a meaningless last game vs. NE, presumably only to enhance his chances of finishing with a winning record)

 

Dubious and self-serving coaching behavior to say the least. A leopard shows his stripes.

[3rdand12]

great post Purple Haze.... what is interesting to me is that Marrone continued to show spiteful behavior toward Whaley's personnel choices (Sammy, MWilliams, BBrown) while at the same time exhibiting self-survivalist tendencies (i.e., not playing EJ in a meaningless last game vs. NE, presumably only to enhance his chances of finishing with a winning record)

 

Dubious and self-serving coaching behavior to say the least. A leopard shows his stripes.

i now feel , that this is the answer.

dudes an ef.n looney

[JohnC]

So, to your original point you think that Bortles was the superior QB in 2014? You said that Orton was the worst QB in the NFL. I am just asking what about Bortles play in 2014 made him the superior player?

If Bortles can move better than an aged two legged dog I would without any equivocation take him over Orton in the 2014 season.

[JohnC]

He did. And he played worse because of Marrone's choices.

You should care when a guy rarely criticizes but then once he criticizes. Usually there is some merit.

RT Henderson didn't play well. RG Pears didn't play well. C Woods didn't play well. RG Richardson and Urbik didn't play well. LT Glenn didn't play well. As a unit this was a hideously incompetent lot. Many people are suggesting their bad play was due to a poorly designed offense. My resolute position is this was a talentless grouping that played down to its wretchedly poor talent level.

 

Next year there will be multiple personnel changes made within the unit. It won't be due to offensive design so much as it will be due to talent issues.

GG goes BOOM.

 

JohnC , you have been nearly the lone defender ( a little assist from Dave M.) of Marrones use of players.

for that i am impressed. Well done! I dont agree with your points per se but you are a valiant man.

There is a tendency of this fickle fan base to vilify people who leave this organization. They inflate their assessment of players when they are with the franchise and they debase them when they leave. This is the same syndrome that happened with the Peters situation. When he left he was harshly disparaged. The end result is he went to a team that wanted him, payed him accordingly and now is a perenial all-star who can reasonably be considered as a lower-tiered HOF candidate.

 

The bottom line is that Marrone got a very flawed and imbalanced team to play up to its talent level. That certainly doesn't make him an elite HC but it does allow him to be categorized as a competent HC.

Edited January 10, 2015 by JohnC

[Kirby Jackson]

If Bortles can move better than an aged two legged dog I would without any equivocation take him over Orton in the 2014 season.

You lose ALL credibility on the subject when you attempt to make this argument!!

Bortles (13 starts):

58.9% completion

2908 yards

11 TD

17 INT

69.5 rating

55 sacks

 

Orton (12 starts):

64.2% completion

3018 yards

18 TD

10 INT

87.8 rating

33 sacks

 

If you want to state your case you shouldn't use ridiculous hyperbole like "Orton was the worst." You should say that he was bad but when the case that you are so easily dispelled your point falls on deaf ears. You can't possibly believe that Bortles season was better. Everything that is said on the subject now just sounds like "that guy hates Orton." It weakens every other point that you try to make. Drop the hyperbole and make a well reasoned case and people will listen.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[JohnC]

You lose ALL credibility on the subject when you attempt to make this argument!!

Bortles (13 starts):

58.9% completion

2908 yards

11 TD

17 INT

69.5 rating

55 sacks

 

Orton (12 starts):

64.2% completion

3018 yards

18 TD

10 INT

87.8 rating

33 sacks

 

If you want to state your case you shouldn't use ridiculous hyperbole like "Orton was the worst." You should say that he was bad but when the case that you are so easily dispelled your point falls on deaf ears. You can't possibly believe that Bortles season was better. Everything that is said on the subject now just sounds like "that guy hates Orton." It weakens every other point that you try to make. Drop the hyperbole and make a well reasoned case and people will listen.

I don't care about Orton's stats last season. The bulk of it was due to end of game prevent defenses that increased his stats. How poorly he played is not reflected by the inflated stats that don't demonstrate how he actually played. Bortles didn't play on a good team. But because he was much more athletic and mobile I would without any hesitation prefer him (or just about anyone else) over Orton.

 

As I have stated over and over the Bills had arguably the least talented OL and starting qb in the league. I don't want to come off as being arrogant but how anyone who watched the games can come to a different conclusion not only surprises me but also puzzles me.

[Kirby Jackson]

I don't care about Orton's stats last season. The bulk of it was due to end of game prevent defenses that increased his stats. How poorly he played is not reflected by the inflated stats that don't demonstrate how he actually played. Bortles didn't play on a good team. But because he was much more athletic and mobile I would without any hesitation prefer him (or just about anyone else) over Orton.

 

As I have stated over and over the Bills had arguably the least talented OL and starting qb in the league. I don't want to come off as being arrogant but how anyone who watched the games can come to a different conclusion not only surprises me but also puzzles me.

So what about Bortles performance in 2014 did you like better than Orton? What made him have the better season?

 

If it was mobility he was sacked 22 more times than Orton in 1 more start!! It can't be Bortles inferior OL either b/c you are already on record in the thread that the Bills OL is "the worst in the NFL."

Edited January 10, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[zonabb]

The hyperbole on this board is out of control. I'm pretty confident that Doug Marrone's next job won't be as a D III HC. While I agree that he burned some bridges St. Doug will land on his feet.

I agree on the hyperbole but "land on his feet" is a pretty broad brush stroke that doesn't due much to argue against a DIII future!!! You should have suggested what (or where) you meant by land on his feet. Maybe he "lands on his feet" as the new head coach at national DIII Champion Wisconsin-Whitewater. That's a pretty prestigious job, what is it 6 of the last 10 DIII national championships?

 

All kidding aside, he'll end up on some staff as a position coach in the NFL or have to return some lowly college program like Syracuse.

[Kirby Jackson]

I agree on the hyperbole but "land on his feet" is a pretty broad brush stroke that doesn't due much to argue against a DIII future!!! You should have suggested what (or where) you meant by land on his feet. Maybe he "lands on his feet" as the new head coach at national DIII Champion Wisconsin-Whitewater. That's a pretty prestigious job, what is it 6 of the last 10 DIII national championships?

 

All kidding aside, he'll end up on some staff as a position coach in the NFL or have to return some lowly college program like Syracuse.

Fair enough, I was trying to be broad. The point was that his next job will NOT be in Division III. He will probably end up as a consultant with the Texans.

[The Bunk]

RT Henderson didn't play well. RG Pears didn't play well. C Woods didn't play well. RG Richardson and Urbik didn't play well. LT Glenn didn't play well. As a unit this was a hideously incompetent lot. Many people are suggesting their bad play was due to a poorly designed offense. My resolute position is this was a talentless grouping that played down to its wretchedly poor talent level.

 

Next year there will be multiple personnel changes made within the unit. It won't be due to offensive design so much as it will be due to talent issues.

 

There is a tendency of this fickle fan base to vilify people who leave this organization. They inflate their assessment of players when they are with the franchise and they debase them when they leave. This is the same syndrome that happened with the Peters situation. When he left he was harshly disparaged. The end result is he went to a team that wanted him, payed him accordingly and now is a perenial all-star who can reasonably be considered as a lower-tiered HOF candidate.

 

The bottom line is that Marrone got a very flawed and imbalanced team to play up to its talent level. That certainly doesn't make him an elite HC but it does allow him to be categorized as a competent HC.

 

You pretty much nailed it. Look, Marrone isn't Vince Lombardi, but he's not nearly the bum that many on this board keep making him out to be. The OL stinks, he had interior linemen who flat out have no business starting in the NFL, his starting RT was a 7th round pick rookie, whom while talented has a ways to go. Wood is a solid player, nothing more, nothing less. Glenn, again, good, not great. I'm not sure why this line struggling is such an indictment on Marrone's offense. Everybody's hero Whaley didn't exactly give him the hogs up front to work with. Doug was a good, but flawed coach that inherited a good, but flawed roster. When your main positions of weakness are QB/OL, no coach is doing a lot better than 9-7.