DC Tom Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Fine with me, let's just stick to whats observable vs an infinite number of unsupported "what if" scenarios: - bills traded up for watkins - giants did not - giants got the better WR (pro bowl, ORoY) - giants' 2015 draft is intact You're basing your judgement of a decision being "bad" based on events eight months in the future of that decision. Again, in our world, effect follows cause. Not the other way around.
thebandit27 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Fine with me, let's just stick to whats observable vs an infinite number of unsupported "what if" scenarios: - bills traded up for watkins - giants did not - giants got the better production from their WR (pro bowl, ORoY) - giants' 2015 draft is intact - Bills finished 3 games better than 2013; Giants finished 1 game worse Went ahead and fixed that for you.
CountDorkula Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Went ahead and fixed that for you. You can add Giants have 2X superbowl winning QB, Bills had Kyle Orton and EJ Manuel
thebandit27 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 You can add Giants have 2X superbowl winning QB, Bills had Kyle Orton and EJ Manuel I feel like that's been mentioned and (illegitimately) dismissed so many times that it doesn't need to be said again.
Wayne Cubed Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Well that's it I guess, no reason for Watkins or ODB to actually play out their careers. The Giants got the better player. Everyone pack it up. We can all go home.
John from Riverside Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Ian Rapoport @RapSheet 4m4 minutes ago As did most RT @RVacchianoNYDN: Jerry Reese on @WFAN660 said Giants had Bills WR Sammy Watkins ahead of Odell Beckham on their draft board Because he SHOULD have been...... I dont even know what I post in this thead.....Rex is gonna tell Roman that his sons friend should be getting the ball....a LOT Next year...Sammy Watkins is in the pro bowl.....BOOK IT
Luxy312 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) The first and single biggest problem with the revisionist logic is the assumption that the Bills could have gotten Beckham with their pick last year at #9. We have no idea of knowing where teams had players ranked. We also have no idea of where the Bills had players ranked. Let's say that the first WR taken is now Watkins at the Tampa Bay pick, who's to say that the Bills instead don't get Mike Evans or Eric Ebron? All the logic in the world doesn't convince me that the draft is so simple that a caveman can do it. Second, there's nothing that anyone can say that can prove out Beckham or Evans would have been better for the Bills than Watkins. They did better with THEIR quarterbacks throwing them the ball and THEIR OC's calling the plays. It means little to what you can say they would have done with Manuel/Orton throwing the ball and Hackett calling the plays. They also did better and were not dealing with nagging hamstring injury issues. Sammy suited up the whole year, but his play was most certainly hampered at time by nagging, but minor injuries, that were critical to his position. So the question then comes down to whether I would have who they could have picked at #9 last year plus the #19 this year or Sammy. Here's my take: Whether you look at the Bills taking Evans, Beckham or even Eric Ebron last year in lieu of trading up, it's a necessity to look at what they might be able to draft this year. First and foremost addressing needs, I would say the top need for the Bills is definitely offensive guard. It is a need right now, without any consideration of what might happen in free agency. There's not a guard in college football right now that is even grading out to first round talent. By most boards, the first guard off the board is at pick 40 or so. If you were to concede that EJ Manuel is not the answer, which I will do simply for this discussion, Buffalo is not drafting Mariota or Winston with the 19th pick. They're both gone by then and the Bills could then reach significantly at 19 for any of the guys that remain. I do not see the value at that draft pick for quarterback. If you jump to the conclusion that Spiller and Jackson are both gone, you might see a need at running back. That's where it gets interesting to me. The top RB on most boards right now is Melvin Gordon and most scouts have him between 15th-25th in the first round. This situation is sort of my own personal nightmare of sorts. Given that both Spiller and Jackson were going to be free agents this year and that this was known last year, it would suck to be without them and watch Gordon fall past the 19th pick. That, and knowing that the Bills could have drafted Beckham, Evans or Ebron last year instead. If the Bills keep Spiller or Jackson, I think the point is somewhat moot. Edited January 14, 2015 by Luxy312
YoloinOhio Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 @AroundTheNFL: Even the Giants will admit a pleasant surprise: Jerry Reese said he had Watkins rated over Beckham http://t.co/iejl1O1blC
st pete gogolak Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 No, no, no. The Bills do not get Mike Evans at #9 last year. If the Bills not make the trade, Cleveland picks Watkins or Mack or they trade with another team. If they take Mack, Watkins isn't making it past the Raiders. If there was a legitimate chance that Evans would have fallen to #9, I don't believe the Bills would have made the trade. Simple fact of the matter was that he wasn't falling to #9.
Alphadawg7 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Oh please, so now we're fantasizing giants tried trading up even though there's no mention or evidence? They used 2 firsts and a 4th on Watkins. That simple LMAO...stop with the stupid math. A first pick was being used REGARDLESS...the COST of Sammy was ONE additional first and ONE fourth. If Sammy was there at 9, the COST would be zero, we would have USED our pick on him. Its posters like you that make this board almost unreadable at times. You want to twist things and exaggerate things to equate to different things. You aren't fooling anyone...any fool over the age of 4 knows the COST of Sammy was ONE first round pick and ONE fourth. PERIOD.
FireChan Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 LMAO...stop with the stupid math. A first pick was being used REGARDLESS...the COST of Sammy was ONE additional first and ONE fourth. If Sammy was there at 9, the COST would be zero, we would have USED our pick on him. Its posters like you that make this board almost unreadable at times. You want to twist things and exaggerate things to equate to different things. You aren't fooling anyone...any fool over the age of 4 knows the COST of Sammy was ONE first round pick and ONE fourth. PERIOD. You can really say it both ways, but one way doesn't sound so bad and the other sounds bad.
Billsfan1972 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Don't you get it..... JTSP (who still hasn't posted the ESPN Insider article of the OP) is pissed that the Bills went 9-7, as opposed to 6-10 and that largely is SW's fault by winning games vs. Detroit & Minnesota. Bills traded, got SW @ 4, as opposed to Ebron @ 9, a 6-10 record and the 7-8th pick this year. JTSP is right that SW cost the Bills again!!!!!! Forget enjoying wins and his play.......
Luap22 Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 The trade was very good, that's why we keep talking. Watkins will do his part, stop griping about it and move on. Many, many first round disasters.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 On my ride home this afternoon I was listening to Schdope and Bulldog discussing the trade, wondering aloud if the trade would have been made if the Pegulas were around at the time last year. And they both said they thought Whaley made the trade because he worried about his job with new owners and that affected his decision and he gambled (they have said this numerous times before although they used to include Marrone as an accomplice) and he wanted to win now. Well, the Pegulas are here now, and Marrone is gone, partly because he didn't like the trade. And Whaley is still here. And Rex is thrilled with Watkins. And if there was ANY inkling whatsoever that Whaley was doing something detrimental to the team for his own survival or well being, do you think the Pegulas would want him or keep him? Not a chance.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 On my ride home this afternoon I was listening to Schdope and Bulldog discussing the trade, wondering aloud if the trade would have been made if the Pegulas were around at the time last year. And they both said they thought Whaley made the trade because he worried about his job with new owners and that affected his decision and he gambled (they have said this numerous times before although they used to include Marrone as an accomplice) and he wanted to win now. Well, the Pegulas are here now, and Marrone is gone, partly because he didn't like the trade. And Whaley is still here. And Rex is thrilled with Watkins. And if there was ANY inkling whatsoever that Whaley was doing something detrimental to the team for his own survival or well being, do you think the Pegulas would want him or keep him? Not a chance. I'll take it a step further, based on what we've seen from Terry & Kim so far bold moves are something they encourage. If they had owned the team last year I'd imagine they would have signed off on the trade as well. A chance to get what nearly every scout had graded as a generational talent at the position? The Pegulas would have given a big thumbs up.
truth on hold Posted January 15, 2015 Author Posted January 15, 2015 Wow GreggyT, Someone actually said that? OMG, only TSW would that ever even be a thought. While we are at it, let the inmates run the asylum and we can switch Kiko to TE, Moorman can be brought back to be our QB, and we can trade Mario for Skelton. SB here we come Nope never said watkins should convert to DB, nor did I even compare him to troy brown. What I did say is his game reminds me of a physical DB like Ty Law. And that if officials let them get away with a lot of pushing and shoving that will help him because of his strong upper body. So yeah this post that has his panties all in a bunch and on ignore, never happened. Ever wonder why he doesnt link to it?
Deranged Rhino Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Nope never said watkins should convert to DB, nor did I even compare him to troy brown. What I did say is his game reminds me of a physical DB like Ty Law. And that if officials let them get away with a lot of pushing and shoving that will help him because of his strong upper body. So yeah this post that has his panties all in a bunch and on ignore, never happened. Ever wonder why he doesnt link to it? Ty Law! That was it! And you totally said it.
K-9 Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I'll take it a step further, based on what we've seen from Terry & Kim so far bold moves are something they encourage. If they had owned the team last year I'd imagine they would have signed off on the trade as well. A chance to get what nearly every scout had graded as a generational talent at the position? The Pegulas would have given a big thumbs up.I get the sense Terry Pegula is not afraid to make a mistake and that attitude permeates throughout his empire. That is a tremendously liberating and empowering mode of operation for those he entrusts to carry out his vision. I get the strong sense we ain't seen nothing yet. I think we are gonna see stuff that makes the Watkins trade look conservative. GO BILLS!!! Edited January 15, 2015 by K-9
Deranged Rhino Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 I get the sense Terry Pegula is not afraid to make a mistake and that attitude permeates throughout his empire. That is a tremendously liberating and empowering mode of operation for those he entrusts to carry out his vision. I get the strong sense we ain't seen nothing yet. I think we are gonna see stuff that makes the Watkins trade look conservative. GO BILLS!!! Good call and I agree. In Murph's interview with Rex today, Rexy mentioned exactly that and it stood out to me. He talked about how when Terry pitched him the job he said that they knew they were going to make mistakes, but their goal is to build a championship team. I loved hearing that! As did Rex apparently. Also in that same interview with Murph, Rex talks about Sammy Watkins. The crusaders should take a listen.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Nope never said watkins should convert to DB, nor did I even compare him to troy brown. What I did say is his game reminds me of a physical DB like Ty Law. And that if officials let them get away with a lot of pushing and shoving that will help him because of his strong upper body. So yeah this post that has his panties all in a bunch and on ignore, never happened. Ever wonder why he doesnt link to it? You said the player he reminded you most of was Ty Law. Which is a ridiculous statement, one of many made in the thread. That's what's I've been saying all along. He's not as big as an Evans and lacks the vertical and body control of a beckham. Those guys have the "open when covered" quality that he lacks. Player he most reminds me of is not a wr at all. It's former pats DB Ty law. When the was allowed to play physical he was the best. When they called it tighter he was average. Sammy has a powerful upper body he can use to push DBs off him (top wr on bench at combine). He got away with a push last Sunday. He needs that to create separation because he's not a jump ball guy. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/173987-give-us-your-overall-impression-of-sammy-watkins/page-11
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