Deranged Rhino Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 I didn't realize Boston was considered non-US soil... :doh: I'm dumb.
B-Man Posted February 25, 2015 Author Posted February 25, 2015 I didn't realize Boston was considered non-US soil... Here on an AFC East board.......................it is.. .
Deranged Rhino Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Here on an AFC East board.......................it is.. . :lol:
Chef Jim Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 No, what you're getting tired of is getting called on your bull ****. If you don't like it, look inward, and then stop posting bull ****. Because I'm not going to stop calling you on it. I'm not your echo chamber, junior. You admit to this position in this freaking post. Everything you stated after this point is a direct admission of this. You apparently understand absolutely nothing about the Muslim world, and view them as a monolith. There's that group think again. No, you just want to engage in "othering", and have tasked Westernized non-denominational, Ahmadiyya, Nation of Islam, Quranist, Sunni, Shia, and Sufi with snuffing out extremist Salafism and Wahhabism; which is akin to blaming Southern Lutherans for the sex abuses perpetrated by the Catholic Church, or demanding Episcopals take a unified stance to snuff out abortion clinic bombings perpetrated by fringe quasi-baptists groups. It's idiocy. Good job. I've got nothing. What people do to other people in the name of religion just boggles my mind.
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 What do you want to be done, by who, and what will its affects be? I get that the peaceful Muslim community is a silent majority. But what do you want? A public condemnation? Is ISIS gonna start shipping prisoners back home if a million American Muslims call them bad guys? Furthermore, isn't that what we condemn Obama for? Pussyfooting around with strong language? I dislike WBC and think they're awful. I've said this before. Does that mean I've done my part? Do I have to arm myself and cap one of them in street for you to feel that I've sufficiently distanced myself from them? It goes deeper than that. More public condemnation is a good thing. Nobody thinks twice about calling WBC a bunch of nutjobs, because they are a fringe outcast group. Same for the wacko preacher who was threatening to burn the Korans. The difference on Islamic terrorists is that there is greater acceptance of them and their methods among the flock. That's why you had celebrations in the Mid East on 9/11 because a group of Muslims took it to the great satan. That's why AQ & ISIS don't seem to be having any trouble raising money or finding recruits, which is not a characteristic of wacko fringe groups. It's good to see the tide maybe turning and there are condemnations, but usually it comes with some equivocation (as seen in this thread). And I don't expect it to change in less than a decade at best. These roots are far deeper and have a lot to do with the Middle East history and their societal norms.
FireChan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 It goes deeper than that. More public condemnation is a good thing. Nobody thinks twice about calling WBC a bunch of nutjobs, because they are a fringe outcast group. Same for the wacko preacher who was threatening to burn the Korans. The difference on Islamic terrorists is that there is greater acceptance of them and their methods among the flock. That's why you had celebrations in the Mid East on 9/11 because a group of Muslims took it to the great satan. That's why AQ & ISIS don't seem to be having any trouble raising money or finding recruits, which is not a characteristic of wacko fringe groups. It's good to see the tide maybe turning and there are condemnations, but usually it comes with some equivocation (as seen in this thread). And I don't expect it to change in less than a decade at best. These roots are far deeper and have a lot to do with the Middle East history and their societal norms. I realize that supporters of those groups do exist, and probably at a higher percentage of the total population. The umbrage I took with Jim's post was the fact that he was putting it on the rest of the Muslim world to stop these terrorist groups. Which will never happen. Public condemnation is fine, and more of it could be a positive. But I won't condemn the western Muslim world because ISIS exists.
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 I realize that supporters of those groups do exist, and probably at a higher percentage of the total population. The umbrage I took with Jim's post was the fact that he was putting it on the rest of the Muslim world to stop these terrorist groups. Which will never happen. Public condemnation is fine, and more of it could be a positive. But I won't condemn the western Muslim world because ISIS exists. He's wrong in his expectation that it should happen immediately. But he's not wrong in thinking that the only way to stop them is for the alleged 99% of peace loving Muslims to resign AQ, ISIS, etc to the wacko status and turn them into pariahs within their cultures.
FireChan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 He's wrong in his expectation that it should happen immediately. But he's not wrong in thinking that the only way to stop them is for the alleged 99% of peace loving Muslims to resign AQ, ISIS, etc to the wacko status and turn them into pariahs within their cultures. Let's use some placeholder values. Let's say that 70% of the Muslim community in the Middle East is against ISIS. 25% are supporters, and 5% are actual members. if the 70% condemn ISIS, are the 25% changing their minds? Are they figuring it out? Or is it a, "we'll kill them and the condemnation will hamper recruiting," situation? I just don't see any tangible results. I also don't see how they're responsible. If half my neighborhood is full of KKK members, is it my responsibility to condemn them in the local paper and possibly have my life and the life of my family in jeopardy? Ideally, maybe. Realistically, no.
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 I just don't see any tangible results. I also don't see how they're responsible. If half my neighborhood is full of KKK members, is it my responsibility to condemn them in the local paper and possibly have my life and the life of my family in jeopardy? Ideally, maybe. Realistically, no. There's a right and a wrong. By turning a blind eye to the wrongs is exactly how we got to this position.
FireChan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 There's a right and a wrong. By turning a blind eye to the wrongs is exactly how we got to this position. What fantasy are you living in? You want a father of 3 to yell at an ISIS guy with an AK? I suppose it's easy to expect more from over here. We aren't in any danger.
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 What fantasy are you living in? You want a father of 3 to yell at an ISIS guy with an AK? I suppose it's easy to expect more from over here. We aren't in any danger. So let's build up the straw man to prove your point? Never mind that in your example you imply that ISIS engenders far greater support than a tiny minority, because how could an individual stand up to a large group. Focus on the Middle East and ask why has ISIS/AQ been able to command the following there, while in much more populated Muslim countries in Southeast Asia, while extremists exist they are far outside of the societal norms.
FireChan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 So let's build up the straw man to prove your point? Never mind that in your example you imply that ISIS engenders far greater support than a tiny minority, because how could an individual stand up to a large group. Focus on the Middle East and ask why has ISIS/AQ been able to command the following there, while in much more populated Muslim countries in Southeast Asia, while extremists exist they are far outside of the societal norms. Because they have more supporters.
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Because they have more supporters. Which is precisely what we're talking about. Until AQ/ISIS become a true fringe, nothing will change. And they will only become fringe when the majority of Muslims in Mid East stop being silent.
FireChan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) Which is precisely what we're talking about. Until AQ/ISIS become a true fringe, nothing will change. And they will only become fringe when the majority of Muslims in Mid East stop being silent. Bull ****. The 25% of extremist supporters in the ME are not going to change their minds. Especially not because of public condemnation from people that they think are worthless or infidels or what have you. Edited February 26, 2015 by FireChan
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Bull ****. The 25% of extremist supporters in the ME are not going to change their minds. Especially not because of public condemnation from people that they think are worthless or infidels or what have you. I guess it's a difference of opinion. If 25% of a population believes they should live by 7th century rules in the 21st century world, they will reap what they sow.
FireChan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 I guess it's a difference of opinion. If 25% of a population believes they should live by 7th century rules in the 21st century world, they will reap what they sow. They sure will. I just don't hold the other 75% responsible for them.
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 They sure will. I just don't hold the other 75% responsible for them. You don't, I do. Just like the KKK example. Fifty years ago, they had far more support than they do now. Public shaming of the supporters did wonders to that silent majority who may have been on the fence.
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 There's a right and a wrong. By turning a blind eye to the wrongs is exactly how we got to this position. Did you miss the part where they are actually warring with Muslim nations who strenuosly oppose them? What more forceful rebuke could they possibly give then to go to war? That aside, you had best get after those Southern Lutherans to put an end to the sexual abuses of the Catholic Church.
GG Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Did you miss the part where they are actually warring with Muslim nations who strenuosly oppose them? What more forceful rebuke could they possibly give then to go to war? That aside, you had best get after those Southern Lutherans to put an end to the sexual abuses of the Catholic Church. Yes, the moral equivalence card. I must have missed the outpouring of all the support for the pedophile priests and the silence that accompanied the accusations.
FireChan Posted February 27, 2015 Posted February 27, 2015 Yes, the moral equivalence card. I must have missed the outpouring of all the support for the pedophile priests and the silence that accompanied the accusations. I think that's a stretch, only because the folks with any authority in those Catholic institutions actually do care about public opinion and aren't loony. The folks with authority in a group like ISIS seem more resistant to that sort of thing.
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