Dorkington Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 EJ 6.4 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/ManuEJ00.htm Geno 6.9 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitGe00.htm Vick 5.0 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VickMi00.htm I've always liked their adjusted net yards/attempt. (* - career, ^ - 2014) EJ*: 5.07 Geno*: 4.60 Vick: 3.49 *knock knock*. I can't tell you whether or not EJ, specifically is starting material. But I have Alex Smith here. He'd like to talk to you about how he threw more than 800 passes in his first 3 years in the NFL with <58% completion (that was his best year) and <6 ypa on average. Then after being benched for a year, he came back and looked servicable but meh. With different coaching in KC, he'd like to talk to you about his 7.0 AY/A and his 63% completion rate Coaching does matter. So does experience and time in the NFL sometimes. But, but... if a QB isn't a clear HoFer his first season, he's a bust!
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Did we call "bad" deep plays? Don't really understand the question. Trolling much? The O play calling had few deep pass plays per game called last season. So you can't truly blame EJ. Need I reiterate all the long passes this weekend that were off target by GREAT QB's? EJ never had the opportunity to actually LEARN from Marone & Co before he was thrown into the frying pan. EJ has played good and he's had bad days as well. Go ahead and hate all you want. You'll have a very long offseason in misery P.S. Condolences on the loss of your idol Orton
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I think he's saying that the deep plays were bad choices based on the players' inability to execute them. I guess not. Trolling much? The O play calling had few deep pass plays per game called last season. So you can't truly blame EJ. Need I reiterate all the long passes this weekend that were off target by GREAT QB's? EJ never had the opportunity to actually LEARN from Marone & Co before he was thrown into the frying pan. EJ has played good and he's had bad days as well. Go ahead and hate all you want. You'll have a very long offseason in misery P.S. Condolences on the loss of your idol Orton How does calling few deep passes affect his completion percentage? Also, those numbers were from 2013.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I guess not. How does calling few deep passes affect his completion percentage? Also, those numbers were from 2013. No Trolls allowed!
Big Gun Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I think that EJ Manuel does what he's told to do (to a fault) because that's how he was raised. I think that he was told by Marrone to not take any chances and he also told him not to run around anymore because they were afraid of him getting hurt. NFL defenses tightened down on what the Bills were doing in this regard and there was no longer any breathing room for Manuel or Orton to succeed in an offense that was so suffocating in conservative play calling. The very strange thing about how much Manuel gets bashed by fans and media alike is by go looking at his stats 14 games in and juxtaposing them with Tannehill's and Bortles' stats at the same time of games started. EJ has slightly better numbers than they do, yet has anyone ever heard anything close to what EJ has got as far as criticisms with those two QBs? Has anyone heard the conclusive declarations of "Miami's got no QB", or "Jacksonville has no QB" in the media and with fans? To me, I think a lot of people have gone way overboard in the Manuel bashing. EJ's numbers represent what everyone expected when he was drafted. Before he even played a down of football, if everyone on this board was told that Manuel would have 16 TDs/12 INTs/78.5 QB rating/1 fourth quarter comeback and 3 games winning drives after 14 games then they would be totally fine with those numbers because he was a "project" QB. I still think that Manuel could be the Bills franchise QB, just as Miami fans and media still think that Tannehill can be their long term franchise QB and the same with Jacksonville fans with Bortles. Thankfully EJ Manuel will finally have true professional training this time around. I can't wait to see if there's going to be a major jump in his level of play this year. Because it is deeper than just numbers. Something, apparently you and a few others have yet to figure out.
West End Stench Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 . Which means his competition is not Jeff Tuel and Alex "trick shot QB" Tanney. Ah, an intentionally funny post on TSW, finally. I really enjoyed this.
MDH Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Because it is deeper than just numbers. Something, apparently you and a few others have yet to figure out. What fans can't figure out is that they have no clue. No clue at all in regards to looking at a QB and being able to predict how good (or bad) he'll be. I don't, you don't, nobody on this board does. The fools are the people who have convinced themselves that they have a clue. The guys who get paid millions of dollars a year and spend their lives watching game film have trouble doing it yet many people on this board can look at a few games and state with certainty that a QB simply doesn't have it and the Bills should move on. People don't even understand when they don't understand something. They think they read some articles and watch some games and BAM, they're experts! All the people who "support" EJ just state - time and time again - that it's too early to tell. Sure, odds are he fails (odds are anybody fails, the rate of success for QBs is low.) But that doesn't mean you don't give a kid the chance to develop. The chance he fails jumps to 100% if not given a chance. 14 games does not a chance make.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 What fans can't figure out is that they have no clue. No clue at all in regards to looking at a QB and being able to predict how good (or bad) he'll be. I don't, you don't, nobody on this board does. The fools are the people who have convinced themselves that they have a clue. The guys who get paid millions of dollars a year and spend their lives watching game film have trouble doing it yet many people on this board can look at a few games and state with certainty that a QB simply doesn't have it and the Bills should move on. People don't even understand when they don't understand something. They think they read some articles and watch some games and BAM, they're experts! All the people who "support" EJ just state - time and time again - that it's too early to tell. Sure, odds are he fails (odds are anybody fails, the rate of success for QBs is low.) But that doesn't mean you don't give a kid the chance to develop. The chance he fails jumps to 100% if not given a chance. 14 games does not a chance make. Why can't people understand this? It's hilarious how many experts we have here. Rodgers rode the bench for 3 years and fell in the draft. Romo didn't play FBS football and wasn't drafted. Brady got benched his senior year in college and was a 6th round pick. But some posters here knew they were good right away!!!
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 What fans can't figure out is that they have no clue. No clue at all in regards to looking at a QB and being able to predict how good (or bad) he'll be. I don't, you don't, nobody on this board does. The fools are the people who have convinced themselves that they have a clue. The guys who get paid millions of dollars a year and spend their lives watching game film have trouble doing it yet many people on this board can look at a few games and state with certainty that a QB simply doesn't have it and the Bills should move on. People don't even understand when they don't understand something. They think they read some articles and watch some games and BAM, they're experts! All the people who "support" EJ just state - time and time again - that it's too early to tell. Sure, odds are he fails (odds are anybody fails, the rate of success for QBs is low.) But that doesn't mean you don't give a kid the chance to develop. The chance he fails jumps to 100% if not given a chance. 14 games does not a chance make. This is what I don't understand. Not one person is saying EJ has no shot in the last few pages of this thread. Of course he has a shot. Of course we don't know the future. But when someone says, "he throws a great deep ball," it's just not true. These conversations always turn into, "you don't know the future!!!!!!" when no one is discussing the future. We are discussing the past and present. EJ has gotten chances and he'll get even more. All I know today is that he's not that good. I'm not going to lie to myself just because he's a Bill.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Why can't people understand this? It's hilarious how many experts we have here. Rodgers rode the bench for 3 years and fell in the draft. Romo didn't play FBS football and wasn't drafted. Brady got benched his senior year in college and was a 6th round pick. But some posters here knew they were good right away!!! :worthy: :D haters got to hate
MDH Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) This is what I don't understand. Not one person is saying EJ has no shot in the last few pages of this thread. Of course he has a shot. Of course we don't know the future. But when someone says, "he throws a great deep ball," it's just not true. These conversations always turn into, "you don't know the future!!!!!!" when no one is discussing the future. We are discussing the past and present. EJ has gotten chances and he'll get even more. All I know today is that he's not that good. I'm not going to lie to myself just because he's a Bill. Absolutely, he's not that good today. If this is the finished product I don't want him starting for my team long term. But I'm willing to give a young QB some time before I kick him to the curb. Now, a 10 year vet I have no patience with. If a guy like that doesn't come in and provide substantial improvement I'd rather roll the dice with the young guy and hope the light goes on. Edited January 13, 2015 by MDH
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Absolutely, he's not that good today. If this is the finished product I don't want him starting for my team long term. But I'm willing to give a young QB some time before I kick him to the curb. Now, a 10 year vet I have no patience with. If a guy like that doesn't come in and provide substantial improvement I'd rather roll the dice with the young guy and hope the light goes on. Exactly. I hate the move to Orton and it's wasn't so much about Orton. He is what he is. IF EJ was the vet and Orton was the young guy, I'd rather play the young guy. It's like folks that want Cutler. What are the odds that Cutler, in year 9, stops being a d bag and being a turnover machine? After a certain amount of years, you are what you are.
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Exactly. I hate the move to Orton and it's wasn't so much about Orton. He is what he is. IF EJ was the vet and Orton was the young guy, I'd rather play the young guy. It's like folks that want Cutler. What are the odds that Cutler, in year 9, stops being a d bag and being a turnover machine? After a certain amount of years, you are what you are. What are the odds EJ ever has a Cutler-esque season? Why not increase our odds by getting both?
Kelly the Dog Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 This is what I don't understand. Not one person is saying EJ has no shot in the last few pages of this thread. Of course he has a shot. Of course we don't know the future. But when someone says, "he throws a great deep ball," it's just not true. These conversations always turn into, "you don't know the future!!!!!!" when no one is discussing the future. We are discussing the past and present. EJ has gotten chances and he'll get even more. All I know today is that he's not that good. I'm not going to lie to myself just because he's a Bill. He has thrown great deep balls in the NFL. He threw a lot of great deep balls in college. He can throw a great deep ball. He has the touch and clearly the arm strength. So far in the NFL he has missed more than he should have. A few wide open ones. That is irrefutable. But a lot of success in the NFL for a QB is feeling comfortable, having confidence, and having the game slow down for you. And then your accuracy or efficiency on these kinds of throws can improve, sometimes substantially. His problem is not the deep ball.
GG Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 He has thrown great deep balls in the NFL. He threw a lot of great deep balls in college. He can throw a great deep ball. He has the touch and clearly the arm strength. So far in the NFL he has missed more than he should have. A few wide open ones. That is irrefutable. But a lot of success in the NFL for a QB is feeling comfortable, having confidence, and having the game slow down for you. And then your accuracy or efficiency on these kinds of throws can improve, sometimes substantially. His problem is not the deep ball. Yes he has thrown some good deep balls in the NFL. But realistically, they were far & few in between. Most of them hit the boom mike operator. Don't want to derail the EJ sucks/EJ needs a chance debate, but consistently hitting a deep ball is definitely not EJ's strength.
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 He has thrown great deep balls in the NFL. He threw a lot of great deep balls in college. He can throw a great deep ball. He has the touch and clearly the arm strength. So far in the NFL he has missed more than he should have. A few wide open ones. That is irrefutable. But a lot of success in the NFL for a QB is feeling comfortable, having confidence, and having the game slow down for you. And then your accuracy or efficiency on these kinds of throws can improve, sometimes substantially. His problem is not the deep ball. That's the salient point. Everything else is hearsay or insubstantial. All the potential, excuses, reasons, circumstances are just that. None of it makes adequate headway against the fact that EJ has not been successful throwing the deep ball in the NFL. He's had some success, sure. Calling it a strength is a stretch. Anyone, this muddies into an opinion based argument. The fact is that while EJ is young, has the potential to grow, needs others to help around him etc, he has not had much success at throwing the deep ball in the NFL. Period.
respk Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 This is what I don't understand. Not one person is saying EJ has no shot in the last few pages of this thread. Of course he has a shot. Of course we don't know the future. But when someone says, "he throws a great deep ball," it's just not true. These conversations always turn into, "you don't know the future!!!!!!" when no one is discussing the future. We are discussing the past and present. EJ has gotten chances and he'll get even more. All I know today is that he's not that good. I'm not going to lie to myself just because he's a Bill. EJ probably will get another shot. I'm guessing the Bills don't cut him before training camp. I'm just hoping they bring in someone, anyone, that has as much or more potential than EJ does to compete for the job next season. If they don't and EJ doesn't play well enough to get to the playoffs, Whaley should be concerned about his job. It will be the second season that he has put his trust in EJ and it hasn't worked out.
FireChan Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Yes he has thrown some good deep balls in the NFL. But realistically, they were far & few in between. Most of them hit the boom mike operator. Don't want to derail the EJ sucks/EJ needs a chance debate, but consistently hitting a deep ball is definitely not EJ's strength. This is a debate that exists only in the minds of posters who crusade or posters who feel the need to defend any perceived slight against EJ da great.
Dr. Who Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I posted this on the BBMB a few days ago. What annoys me are the people who say "what are we going to do about qb?" with the assumed certitude that we know EJ Manuel is a lost cause. EJ is a gifted athlete with good character and a solid work ethic.He had some success at FSU, but never nailed down the starter job. He was definitely a project drafted for upside based on his athleticism and his work ethic.He was not supposed to see the field the first year, but injuries altered that plan. He had a typical rookie season with typical ups-and-downs.EJ worked very hard in the off-season. Wide receiver talent was added and an attempt was made to upgrade the o-line.What happened? EJ appears to have regressed. The o-line was for the most part abysmal. The offensive play-calling was inadequate, to the point where a journeyman qb with experience regressed as the year went on.Given Marrone's departure and the subsequent avalanche of rumor, it is at least plausible that Marrone is a stubborn meathead who made decisions at least partly to frustrate Whaley. He certainly does not appear to have made a good faith effort to develop EJ Manuel.What would a rational person with decent intellect and character take away from all this?The most plausible conclusion is that EJ Manuel is still an unknown quantity.His chances of becoming a great NFL qb are relatively low, because the number of qbs who succeed at this level is always a small number. One could argue that Rodgers and Brady are the only truly elite qbs playing now. (Manning is not the same player.) Still, it would be presumptuous to simply dismiss EJ at this point.The factors that made him an attractive project are still viable and there are mitigating aspects that could explain how his second year turned out. One cannot simply dismiss them without acting in bad faith,which is what many on this board are doing.The bottom line on all this is that EJ remains the most viable qb with actual potential on the Bills' roster. No doubt someone else will be brought in, but none of the free agents are anything more than journeymen with proven track records. While the chance is perhaps slim, we do not actually KNOW that Manuel's ceiling is mediocre game manager at best. I am looking forward to a coach like Jackson or Bevell putting him in a position to succeed. He may not, but he deserves a chance. Really too bad for those who are unable to make a complex judgement.
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