eball Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Chris Trapasso @ChrisTrapasso 5m5 minutes ago #Bills source: "Ryan views EJ as step up at QB because he's not a turnover machine like Sanchez, Geno, Vick. Whaley sold that, Rex agreed." Chris Trapasso @ChrisTrapasso 1m1 minute ago In 2012, Sanchez threw 18 INTs, fumbled 14x. In 2013, Geno threw 21 INTs, fumbled 8x. In 2014, Geno/Vick combined for 15 INTs, 13 fumbles. EJ -- 12 INTs and 4 lost fumbles though 14.5 games. Huge difference.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 a major fault with EJ is he is too cautious. I'd like him to take more risks. But he is much more careful with the ball than Smith or Sanchez. It's why I don't think Rex would want Cutler or Sanchez. Defensive coaches hate offensive turnovers. How do you know he wasn't coached to be cautious? Your presumed fault may just be what he was told to do.
1billsfan Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 a major fault with EJ is he is too cautious. I'd like him to take more risks. But he is much more careful with the ball than Smith or Sanchez. It's why I don't think Rex would want Cutler or Sanchez. Defensive coaches hate offensive turnovers. I think that EJ Manuel does what he's told to do (to a fault) because that's how he was raised. I think that he was told by Marrone to not take any chances and he also told him not to run around anymore because they were afraid of him getting hurt. NFL defenses tightened down on what the Bills were doing in this regard and there was no longer any breathing room for Manuel or Orton to succeed in an offense that was so suffocating in conservative play calling. The very strange thing about how much Manuel gets bashed by fans and media alike is by go looking at his stats 14 games in and juxtaposing them with Tannehill's and Bortles' stats at the same time of games started. EJ has slightly better numbers than they do, yet has anyone ever heard anything close to what EJ has got as far as criticisms with those two QBs? Has anyone heard the conclusive declarations of "Miami's got no QB", or "Jacksonville has no QB" in the media and with fans? To me, I think a lot of people have gone way overboard in the Manuel bashing. EJ's numbers represent what everyone expected when he was drafted. Before he even played a down of football, if everyone on this board was told that Manuel would have 16 TDs/12 INTs/78.5 QB rating/1 fourth quarter comeback and 3 games winning drives after 14 games then they would be totally fine with those numbers because he was a "project" QB. I still think that Manuel could be the Bills franchise QB, just as Miami fans and media still think that Tannehill can be their long term franchise QB and the same with Jacksonville fans with Bortles. Thankfully EJ Manuel will finally have true professional training this time around. I can't wait to see if there's going to be a major jump in his level of play this year.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Chris Trapasso @ChrisTrapasso 5m5 minutes ago #Bills source: "Ryan views EJ as step up at QB because he's not a turnover machine like Sanchez, Geno, Vick. Whaley sold that, Rex agreed." Chris Trapasso @ChrisTrapasso 1m1 minute agoIn 2012, Sanchez threw 18 INTs, fumbled 14x. In 2013, Geno threw 21 INTs, fumbled 8x. In 2014, Geno/Vick combined for 15 INTs, 13 fumbles. Would be curious to compare the YPA of each of those guys-- because the counter-argument is that you don't turn the ball over when you are only throwing 3-yard check downs.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I think that EJ Manuel does what he's told to do (to a fault) because that's how he was raised. I think that he was told by Marrone to not take any chances and he also told him not to run around anymore because they were afraid of him getting hurt. NFL defenses tightened down on what the Bills were doing in this regard and there was no longer any breathing room for Manuel or Orton to succeed in an offense that was so suffocating in conservative play calling. The very strange thing about how much Manuel gets bashed by fans and media alike is by go looking at his stats 14 games in and juxtaposing them with Tannehill's and Bortles' stats at the same time of games started. EJ has slightly better numbers than they do, yet has anyone ever heard anything close to what EJ has got as far as criticisms with those two QBs? Has anyone heard the conclusive declarations of "Miami's got no QB", or "Jacksonville has no QB" in the media and with fans? To me, I think a lot of people have gone way overboard in the Manuel bashing. EJ's numbers represent what everyone expected when he was drafted. Before he even played a down of football, if everyone on this board was told that Manuel would have 16 TDs/12 INTs/78.5 QB rating/1 fourth quarter comeback and 3 games winning drives after 14 games then they would be totally fine with those numbers because he was a "project" QB. I still think that Manuel could be the Bills franchise QB, just as Miami fans and media still think that Tannehill can be their long term franchise QB and the same with Jacksonville fans with Bortles. Thankfully EJ Manuel will finally have true professional training this time around. I can't wait to see if there's going to be a major jump in his level of play this year. +1
Lurker Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Would be curious to compare the YPA of each of those guys-- because the counter-argument is that you don't turn the ball over when you are only throwing 3-yard check downs. EJ 6.4 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/ManuEJ00.htm Geno 6.9 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitGe00.htm Vick 5.0 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VickMi00.htm
MDH Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 The very strange thing about how much Manuel gets bashed by fans and media alike is by go looking at his stats 14 games in and juxtaposing them with Tannehill's and Bortles' stats at the same time of games started. EJ has slightly better numbers than they do, yet has anyone ever heard anything close to what EJ has got as far as criticisms with those two QBs? Has anyone heard the conclusive declarations of "Miami's got no QB", or "Jacksonville has no QB" in the media and with fans? I think this mostly has to do with the media's (and by extension the fans who follow the draft) insistence that the Bills "reached" and he "wasn't worth a first round pick." So when they talk about Manuel they want to continue this narrative as it plays into what they already believed.
CodeMonkey Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) Will be interesting to see how/if the new HC and OC try and revive Spiiler as well. Edited January 12, 2015 by CodeMonkey
Lurker Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I think this mostly has to do with the media's (and by extension the fans who follow the draft) insistence that the Bills "reached" and he "wasn't worth a first round pick." So when they talk about Manuel they want to continue this narrative as it plays into what they already believed. Agreed. His draft position will always drive the argument that he's a "bust." Not much he can do about that, except get better--hopefully, with good coaching and more reps...
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I think that EJ Manuel does what he's told to do (to a fault) because that's how he was raised. I think that he was told by Marrone to not take any chances and he also told him not to run around anymore because they were afraid of him getting hurt. NFL defenses tightened down on what the Bills were doing in this regard and there was no longer any breathing room for Manuel or Orton to succeed in an offense that was so suffocating in conservative play calling. The very strange thing about how much Manuel gets bashed by fans and media alike is by go looking at his stats 14 games in and juxtaposing them with Tannehill's and Bortles' stats at the same time of games started. EJ has slightly better numbers than they do, yet has anyone ever heard anything close to what EJ has got as far as criticisms with those two QBs? Has anyone heard the conclusive declarations of "Miami's got no QB", or "Jacksonville has no QB" in the media and with fans? To me, I think a lot of people have gone way overboard in the Manuel bashing. EJ's numbers represent what everyone expected when he was drafted. Before he even played a down of football, if everyone on this board was told that Manuel would have 16 TDs/12 INTs/78.5 QB rating/1 fourth quarter comeback and 3 games winning drives after 14 games then they would be totally fine with those numbers because he was a "project" QB. I still think that Manuel could be the Bills franchise QB, just as Miami fans and media still think that Tannehill can be their long term franchise QB and the same with Jacksonville fans with Bortles. Thankfully EJ Manuel will finally have true professional training this time around. I can't wait to see if there's going to be a major jump in his level of play this year. Well said. A guy hasn't master the QB position by age 24? BUST!!!
217014170 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 How do you know he wasn't coached to be cautious? Your presumed fault may just be what he was told to do. Bingo
msw2112 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I'm not here to bash EJ, and nobody would be happier than me to see him turn his career around and be successful for the Bills. That said, I have watched every game he has played and when I see his stats after the game, I almost always say to myself (or to whoever else is in the room) that his statistics do not tell the true story about how he played. Invariably, his statistics look much better than his actual play was. How does one explain this? Some of it is garbage time - many of his stats are inflated in garbage time and/or against prevent defenses. Others may be a screen pass or a 2 yard dump off to a guy like Fred Jackson who turns it into a 20 yard gain. Looks great for the QB's stats, but wasn't really the result of the QB having done anything spectacular. Also, as one poster mentioned above, his completion percentage tends to be high due to the high number of dump offs (bringing back bad memories of Trentative Edwards). Finally, not all incompletions are created equal. If he misses a wide open received on 3rd and 8, it simply goes in the books as an incompletion, statistically the same as if he threw the ball out of bounds on 2nd and 3 because he was looking downfield and everyone was covered. While both are statistically an incomplete pass, one has a much greater impact on the game. Statistics can be very misleading and comparing two or three players based on statistics alone doesn't mean much. Edited January 12, 2015 by msw2112
1billsfan Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I think this mostly has to do with the media's (and by extension the fans who follow the draft) insistence that the Bills "reached" and he "wasn't worth a first round pick." So when they talk about Manuel they want to continue this narrative as it plays into what they already believed. I think you're right about that. Also, there seemed to be a palpable anger from the NFL media that there were no QBs like Luck, RGIII or Wilson in the subsequent 2013 draft. Every time they talked about the QBs it was with disgust and contempt. I see all of the QBs from that class as still works in progress including EJ and Geno. I also think without a doubt that Chip Kelly would have picked up EJ in the second round and he'd be playing very well in that system. EJ just needs someone to believe in him and let him play more loosely without fear of getting yelled at. I think that Roman will do this since he now has a QB who brings skills very close to what Kaepernick had in SF. Edited January 12, 2015 by 1billsfan
NickelCity Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I'm not here to bash EJ, and nobody would be happier than me to see him turn his career around and be successful for the Bills. That said, I have watched every game he has played and when I see his stats after the game, I almost always say to myself (or to whoever else is in the room) that his statistics do not tell the true story about how he played. Invariably, his statistics look much better than his actual play was. How does one explain this? Some of it is garbage time - many of his stats are inflated in garbage time and/or against prevent defenses. Others may be a screen pass or a 2 yard dump off to a guy like Fred Jackson who turns it into a 20 yard gain. Looks great for the QB's stats, but wasn't really the result of the QB having done anything spectacular. Also, as one poster mentioned above, his completion percentage tends to be high due to the high number of dump offs (bringing back bad memories of Trentative Edwards). Finally, not all incompletions are created equal. If he misses a wide open received on 3rd and 8, it simply goes in the books as an incompletion, statistically the same as if he threw the ball out of bounds on 2nd and 3 because he was looking downfield and everyone was covered. While both are statistically an incomplete pass, one has a much greater impact on the game. Statistics can be very misleading and comparing two or three players based on statistics alone doesn't mean much. I'm frustrated to say I felt the same, quite often.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I think you're right about that. Also, there seemed to be a palpable anger from the NFL media that there were no QBs like Luck, RGIII or Wilson in the subsequent 2013 draft. Every time they talked about the QBs it was with disgust and contempt. I see all of the QBs from that class as still world in progress including EJ and Geno. I also think without a doubt that Chip Kelly would have picked up EJ in the second round and he'd be playing very well in that system. EJ just needs someone to believe in him and let him play more loosely without fear of getting yelled at. I think that Roman will do this since he now has a QB who brings skills very close to what Kaepernick had in SF. Fact is Marrone and Hackett have a deep history of developing NFL QBs. Also, the 2014 qb class was so superior to anything EJ did that it makes him look bad. Another fact is all QBs hit their peak after 14 games. When EJ left the field 3 times with the lead in his rookie year (ATL, CLE, NE), he should have played better defense. Fact is if I call someone a bust first and early, I get a prize. And I have to be right on a message board!
1billsfan Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I'm not here to bash EJ, and nobody would be happier than me to see him turn his career around and be successful for the Bills. That said, I have watched every game he has played and when I see his stats after the game, I almost always say to myself (or to whoever else is in the room) that his statistics do not tell the true story about how he played. Invariably, his statistics look much better than his actual play was. How does one explain this? Some of it is garbage time - many of his stats are inflated in garbage time and/or against prevent defenses. Others may be a screen pass or a 2 yard dump off to a guy like Fred Jackson who turns it into a 20 yard gain. Looks great for the QB's stats, but wasn't really the result of the QB having done anything spectacular. Also, as one poster mentioned above, his completion percentage tends to be high due to the high number of dump offs (bringing back bad memories of Trentative Edwards). Finally, not all incompletions are created equal. If he misses a wide open received on 3rd and 8, it simply goes in the books as an incompletion, statistically the same as if he threw the ball out of bounds on 2nd and 3 because he was looking downfield and everyone was covered. While both are statistically an incomplete pass, one has a much greater impact on the game. Now that Marrone is gone, let's see what he can do. I think many here are eager to see what this new OC can do with Manuel because they think that Marrone had no clue in what he was doing with him.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 I'm not here to bash EJ, and nobody would be happier than me to see him turn his career around and be successful for the Bills. That said, I have watched every game he has played and when I see his stats after the game, I almost always say to myself (or to whoever else is in the room) that his statistics do not tell the true story about how he played. Invariably, his statistics look much better than his actual play was. How does one explain this? Some of it is garbage time - many of his stats are inflated in garbage time and/or against prevent defenses. Others may be a screen pass or a 2 yard dump off to a guy like Fred Jackson who turns it into a 20 yard gain. Looks great for the QB's stats, but wasn't really the result of the QB having done anything spectacular. Also, as one poster mentioned above, his completion percentage tends to be high due to the high number of dump offs (bringing back bad memories of Trentative Edwards). Finally, not all incompletions are created equal. If he misses a wide open received on 3rd and 8, it simply goes in the books as an incompletion, statistically the same as if he threw the ball out of bounds on 2nd and 3 because he was looking downfield and everyone was covered. While both are statistically an incomplete pass, one has a much greater impact on the game. Statistics can be very misleading and comparing two or three players based on statistics alone doesn't mean much. 1) No other qb ever gets yards that pad their stats. 2) Jackson had almost 20 more catches this year than in 2013.
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 EJ 6.4 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/ManuEJ00.htm Geno 6.9 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitGe00.htm Vick 5.0 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VickMi00.htm Thanks!! I think this is a great stat and helps make the case that EJ is much less prone to TOs.
Gordio Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 Fact is Marrone and Hackett have a deep history of developing NFL QBs. Also, the 2014 qb class was so superior to anything EJ did that it makes him look bad. Another fact is all QBs hit their peak after 14 games. When EJ left the field 3 times with the lead in his rookie year (ATL, CLE, NE), he should have played better defense. Fact is if I call someone a bust first and early, I get a prize. And I have to be right on a message board! The problem is if you actually pay attention to college football & watch the games & watched FSU while EJ played there you see a QB that is very limited in what he can do. He can only read half the field, he slow on his progressions if he even goes thru his progressions, he has speed but he is not a good scrambler(if that makes sense) & his accuracy on the medium to long passes is horrible. I realize this is not his fault but he should of never been drafted in the first round. The big problem is that a lot of EJ's problems I really don't think are correctable. Van Miller told me a long time ago when we were discussing JP Losman at the gym that "accuracy is something you can't teach, either you have it or you don't." I hope I am wrong but I really think Manuel will be out of the league in 3 years.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 12, 2015 Posted January 12, 2015 The problem is if you actually pay attention to college football & watch the games & watched FSU while EJ played there you see a QB that is very limited in what he can do. He can only read half the field, he slow on his progressions if he even goes thru his progressions, he has speed but he is not a good scrambler(if that makes sense) & his accuracy on the medium to long passes is horrible. I realize this is not his fault but he should of never been drafted in the first round. The big problem is that a lot of EJ's problems I really don't think are correctable. Van Miller told me a long time ago when we were discussing JP Losman at the gym that "accuracy is something you can't teach, either you have it or you don't." I hope I am wrong but I really think Manuel will be out of the league in 3 years. I guess time will tell. But 14 games is too early to give up on a first rounder. I hated Bortles and didn't understand the hype. He was much worst the EJ as a rookie. But the Jags would be morons to give up on him yet.
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