TSOL Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I DO NOT trust Marrones evaluation of EJ. Marrone clearly had an agenda all year. Beyond that i dont think Marrone is even capable of developing a QB, he knew it and was scared to even try.
NoSaint Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 there has never been a reason to criticize Hackett without looking at Marrone first. One was attached to the other and they likely held each other back in many ways. Ultimately it was Marrones team and Hacketts offensive play calling that made our team what it is. Last year in the Carolina game remember EJ played without a radio and called his own plays for a while. He looked damn good. When EJ has played the ball he wants to and he can it has looked amazing. Orton, same thing. Orton took the field showing eagerness. Happiness and a will to succeed. By a month later he was dejected. Called off the field for 4th and 1. Expected to make a 4th and 10 later. The same guy that said we are going for 2 in Detroit against what the coaches said was the same guy that a month plus later slid before the first down We were a bitter negative losing team under marrone I won't get all the way to the last sentence (I think these guys genuinely like each other and that helped motivate them) But I agree some of ejs best flashes were two minute drills and (more than one) radio malfunction
GG Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 A lot of things start to make sense if you accept one premise: Whaley and Brandon essentially ordered St. Doug to start EJ and find a way to make it work. The no attention to the QB spot prior to Labor Day, once it started to look like EJ was a dumpster fire and both Dougs realized they might both be out on their asses if the only other option was Tuel if/when EJ continued to flame out. The tension and shouting matches at training camp, as EJ continued to look like crap and St. Doug started to get antsy and REALLY nasty. The blowup with the "go ahead and fire me" quote. The quick benching of EJ after the Texans game and St. Doug saying it was HIS CALL Thus the conservative, vanilla, "popgun offense." St. Doug knew EJ sucked. So he and Hackett tried to find a way to run the offense around him and minimize his ability to blow the game. Even the opt-out. After that season ending rpess conference Whaley and St. Doug have another of their "disagreements" over EJ. Since Orton is gone, Whaley wants to develop EJ. St. Doug wants another QB. He goes to Pegula and tries to get control of roster so that he is not left with EJ and a couple of practice squad QBs next season. It doesn't work. He leaves. And he's REALLY MAD that he feels his hand was forced. He knows leaving was a risky and potentially bad move. He knows he has a defense and a solid team. He feels wronged because the front office is trying to foist a terrible QB on him. He feels that this team can win right now with an actual QB but he is being told to deal with EJ. Hell, I'm furious at the idea and it's not my career or name attached to it. A lot makes sense. Including the sudden 180 on both Hackett and EJ now. Saint Doug was the worst person to ever live, so everything he said and thought was wrong. Thus we can continue with the guys we have! Hackett as OC and EJ. HEck, maybe even Hackett as HC! You don't for a second consider that events that have occurred over the last week have shed some light on the bizarre situation that was the Bills offense in 2014? No one is clamoring for anointing a new saint Hackett. But there are some reasons to believe he wasn't quite the whipping boy he was made out to be.
Dorkington Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I'm not sure anyone is anointing EJ or Hackett, I wish people would stop polarizing things like that. Me, I don't think it's fair to make final judgment on either in light of Marrone. I think EJ could still develop in the right situation. I think Hackett has shown promise during some play designs (remember all the wide open receivers) while also failing at others. Being that he's very young, he could still turn out to be decent in the future. However that is not me saying he's the answer right now.
Saxum Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 In his entire professional career, Manuel has had one coach, one offensive coordinator, and NO quarterback coach. And his coordinator is a known knucklehead, and his head coach spent more time with the line. Yeah, it kind-of makes sense to say "Let's see if a different coach changes matters." I guess you do not consider Todd Downing a QB coach? Todd Downing
Kelly the Dog Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I'm not sure anyone is anointing EJ or Hackett, I wish people would stop polarizing things like that. Me, I don't think it's fair to make final judgment on either in light of Marrone. I think EJ could still develop in the right situation. I think Hackett has shown promise during some play designs (remember all the wide open receivers) while also failing at others. Being that he's very young, he could still turn out to be decent in the future. However that is not me saying he's the answer right now. Exactly how I feel. I don't understand how someone reading Hackett may not be all that bad, or Hackett was hamstrung by Marrone equals people thinking he is great and the answer, or even deserves the job. I always thought Hackett was only running Marrone's offense.
dave mcbride Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) You don't for a second consider that events that have occurred over the last week have shed some light on the bizarre situation that was the Bills offense in 2014? No one is clamoring for anointing a new saint Hackett. But there are some reasons to believe he wasn't quite the whipping boy he was made out to be. I do think the fun police might be right in suggesting that save for Whaley, the team collectively thought Manuel was terrible. The signs were there, and the sense I got from the players is that they didn't think he was any good either. I'm no fan of Marrone, obviously, but if his goal was winning, I can see why he may have reverted to Jauron ball. It's the opposite of inspiring (or indeed watchable), but in the larger strategic sense, it may have given them their best chance to win. I have a hard time arguing against that notion. Badol says above that they shifted to win now mode when Ralph died, and that makes sense. I also Marrone's response was rational given those circumstances. I'm jaundiced about this, btw -- I read too many excuses for Losman from good posters on this board who blamed the coaching and ignored the evidence in front of their eyes. He was a terrible player. Edited January 7, 2015 by dave mcbride
Kelly the Dog Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I guess you do not consider Todd Downing a QB coach? Todd Downing Yeah, EJ had one this year but not his rookie year.
starrymessenger Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Whaley is the antithesis of Marrone -- cool, focused, and strategic. Always thinking ahead, sticking to the plan and not succumbing to knee-jerk reactions. A reasonable man does not give up on EJ Manuel after 14 games. A smart man doesn't draft him.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I do think the fun police might be right in suggesting that save for Whaley, the team collectively thought Manuel was terrible. The signs were there. I'm no fan of Marrone, obviously, but if his goal was winning, I can see why he may have reverted to Jauron ball. It's the opposite of inspiring (or indeed watchable), but in the larger strategic sense, it may have given them their best chance to win. I have a hard time arguing against that notion. Badol says above that they shifted to win now mode when Ralph died, and that makes sense. I also Marrone's response was rational given those circumstances. The Bills were 2-2 with EJ against the Bears, Dolphins, Chargers, and Texans. Three of those four were playing excellent defense at that time of year. EJ was horrible on the road against the Texans. But he easily could have played as well as Orton did the last 6-7 games of the season. Easily scored one TD a game, even with all his problems and craptastic coaching.
dave mcbride Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) The Bills were 2-2 with EJ against the Bears, Dolphins, Chargers, and Texans. Three of those four were playing excellent defense at that time of year. EJ was horrible on the road against the Texans. But he easily could have played as well as Orton did the last 6-7 games of the season. Easily scored one TD a game, even with all his problems and craptastic coaching.I'll trust my eyes. I worry that this is Losman mach II -- lots of excuses for poor play, lots of blame attributed to the coaches, lots of decontextualized stats that made him look better than he clearly was, and lots of support for him because he seemed like a good guy. I sincerely hope I'm wrong. I mean that. Edited January 7, 2015 by dave mcbride
GG Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I do think the fun police might be right in suggesting that save for Whaley, the team collectively thought Manuel was terrible. The signs were there, and the sense I got from the players is that they didn't think he was any good either. I'm no fan of Marrone, obviously, but if his goal was winning, I can see why he may have reverted to Jauron ball. It's the opposite of inspiring (or indeed watchable), but in the larger strategic sense, it may have given them their best chance to win. I have a hard time arguing against that notion. Badol says above that they shifted to win now mode when Ralph died, and that makes sense. I also Marrone's response was rational given those circumstances. I'm jaundiced about this, btw -- I read too many excuses for Losman from good posters on this board who blamed the coaching and ignored the evidence in front of their eyes. He was a terrible player. I fully agree with that, and understand why the Bills employed Jauron ball at the beginning of the season and fully supported the move to replace with him with Orton. But the bizarro world came around when the Bills still ran the pop gun offense and sat Williams & Goodwin with Orton at the helm. That's the part that didn't make sense then, and now supports the theory that Marrone was playing a different game. I'll trust my eyes. I worry that this is Losman mach II -- lots of excuses for poor play, lots of blame attributed to the coaches, lots of decontextualized stats that made him look better than he clearly was, and lots of support for him because he seemed like a good guy. I sincerely hope I'm wrong. I mean that. The problem for EJ is that he's never had to win a QB battle in the pros. Let him earn the job.
starrymessenger Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Well, the Bills better give away season tickets for '15. We've paid enough for EJ's learning curve of incompetence. Apparently not enuf for some folks.
Tyrod's Tailor Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 I fully agree with that, and understand why the Bills employed Jauron ball at the beginning of the season and fully supported the move to replace with him with Orton. But the bizarro world came around when the Bills still ran the pop gun offense and sat Williams & Goodwin with Orton at the helm. That's the part that didn't make sense then, and now supports the theory that Marrone was playing a different game. The problem for EJ is that he's never had to win a QB battle in the pros. Let him earn the job. Losman "beat out" Craig Nall and some other fool I'm forgetting, then we got more of the same.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I'll trust my eyes. I worry that this is Losman mach II -- lots of excuses for poor play, lots of blame attributed to the coaches, lots of decontextualized stats that made him look better than he clearly was, and lots of support for him because he seemed like a good guy. I sincerely hope I'm wrong. I mean that. You don't think he was coached poorly? I agree that there has been poor play, excuses and support because he's a nice guy. But there is also strong arm, size, attitude, work ethic, and raw talent. What has yet to be determined is whether experience and good coaching can breed confidence and letting him just play, whether he can take command instead of being a baby, and whether the game will ever slow down for him so he can make better, quicker decisions. He's never going to be a super accurate passer like Rodgers. He's never going to have the head and quick thinking and mastery of the position like your favorite Chad Pennington (who wasn't ever going to be good enough, btw, despite some decent stats a couple years). But he has a lot of potential to be a very good QB. If I had to bet on it, I would say no, he will never be great. He probably won't be very, very good. But he has a better chance of it than 90% of the QBs that are starters, back-ups, #3s and practice squad QBs that are getting paid to be NFL QBs. Two thirds of them have zero chance. Edited January 7, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
Tyrod's Tailor Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 You don't think he was coached poorly? I agree that there has been poor play, excuses and support because he's a nice guy. But there is also talent, size, attitude, work ethic, and raw talent. What has yet to be determined is whether experience and good coaching can breed confidence and letting him just play, whether he can take command instead of being a baby, and whether the game will ever slow down for him so he can make better, quicker decisions. He's never going to be a super accurate passer like Rodgers. He's never going to have the head and quick thinking and mastery of the position like your favorite Chad Pennington (who wasn't ever going to be good enough, btw, despite some decent stats a couple years). But he has a lot of potential to be a very good QB. If I had to bet on it, I would say no, he will never be great. He probably won't be very, very good. But he has a better chance of it than 90% of the QBs that are starters, back-ups, #3s and practice squad QBs that are getting paid to be NFL QBs. Two thirds of them have zero chance. Talent AND raw talent too? That's amazing.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Talent AND raw talent too? That's amazing. Yup. I saw that and changed it, I meant arm and talent.
Tyrod's Tailor Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Yup. I saw that and changed it, I meant arm and talent. Forgive me, being stuck at work makes me pedantic.
GG Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 Losman "beat out" Craig Nall and some other fool I'm forgetting, then we got more of the same. And EJ beat out Lewis, Dixon, Palmer & Tuel. EJ wins.
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