The Two Faces of Doug Marrone

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I was thinking this as well. Polian gives Marrone the highest of compliments but Doug is scared away by the idea of working with Bill? But then after Marrone opts out he runs to Polian to tell him about the behind the scenes bad mouthing of Bill at OBD? This whole thing makes no sense.

 

It pretty much tells me that Marrone wanted the $4 million no matter what kind of smoke screens his agent put out there about bad "environment". It also makes me believe that Bill Polian simply looked at the 9-7 record like most national pundits and concluded Marrone must be doing a helluva coaching job. I'm glad neither of these guys are part of the Bills future.

I think it's true Polian and Coughlin and others were powerful football men Doug cultivated at a distance. They saw only his accomplishments and his good side. I agree, if Polian took Doug at face value he's no longer plugged in enough to do the sort of due diligence that the Bills need.

 

My guess is that it wasn't Polian per se that gave Marrone pause, but that Marrone wanted control of the 53 man roster and wanted certain FO people guaranteed gone. The Pegulas wouldn't promise either one - they are too savvy business people to bring in a broom without studying the landscape first. At the same time, Marrone heard from his agent that Rex was out and through his connections, he could ride his "winning season with no QB and a snowstorm" into the Jets job.

 

Changing to the Jets is a win for him because having gone 9-7 this year, the expectations in B'lo are continued improvement. OTOH, on the Jets, he'll get kudos if he just turns the bus around a bit and makes a losing team average. There's nowhere to go but up, at least for the next 3-4 years.

 

When a guy is an assistant, he is probably a lot nicer than when he is the head coach. It sounds to me like he shows his true colors when he gets control.

In St Louis, I know several people who knew Dick Vermeil and Mike Martz very well in different capacities, including as employees or employee families and as friends. Every single person had nothing but good stuff to say about Vermeil - hard working and high expectations but genuinely caring, a "people person". Every single person, including the friends (!!) said Martz was an egotistical jerk. It was kept in check a bit more before he became "Mad Martz" the head coach, of course, but it was there to be seen. The thing is while you're a friend or a valued mentor or subordinate, it's easy to say there must be some good reason he went off on that other guy or else you see enough to like that it outweighs the jerk side (kind of like Levy with Polian, from what Levy has said).

 

Football is a small community and it can be suicidal to bad-mouth someone who is seen as a rising star, so people keep quiet and just move on if they don't like it. As long as Doug kept quiet, self-interest was all on the side of his subordinates and coworkers keeping quiet. But that goes both ways. Once he picked up the phone to Polian, and Bill shot an earful to the Bills (and someone alerted the media), now self-interest in the Bills FO is on the side of returning fire.

 

Edited January 6, 2015 by Hopeful

[NoSaint]

Some people struggle immensely with handling success. Sometimes those guys have very good PR teams and a few well placed friends too. They are good at doing what they need to climb the ladder without even rounding out the full/broad skill sets you'd expect them to have.

 

Marrone isn't incompetent but he surely isn't the guy we were sold either. I admit I didn't watch a ton of SU football and despite being confused about how a .500 guy in the big east got the hype, assumed I mustve missed something. Then I thought it was cool we got an experienced player to lead the locker room.... Until I saw his playing career. Then I was excited for a forward thinking guy that would embrace innovation and being bold (like New Orleans).... And that never came true....

Edited January 6, 2015 by NoSaint

[BackInDaDay]

interesting post..

 

it certainly seems that Marrone was capable of impressing those who impressed him. i don't think Whaley, Russ, or the Pegula impressed him.

he is, after all, a genius. all he needed was an All-pro QB and some All-pro linemen, and he would have proved it.

sainthood, unfortunately, is beyond his reach.. the football gods reserve that honor for those who lead modest talent to the promised land.

[Cash]

The people who think very highly of Doug Marrone are not scrubs or stupids.

 

Saints HC Sean Payton spoke very highly of him, as did many, many others in the Saints Org. Ex Redskins GM Charley Casserly thinks the world of him. Bill Parcells spoke very highly of him, as did Bill Polian.

 

His players from his days as the Jets O line coach literally love him, as did the RB's at that time. Curtis Martin thinks Marrone was the best line coach he ever played with, as do a lot of his ex line players. Marrone would be out with the players working with the blocking sled long after the rest of the teams practice had ended.

 

Marrone's problems in Buffalo stem from being handed some very bad players for the O line. The most experienced starting WR on the team this season was Robert Woods in his second year. Plus most of all was his extremely poor choice for his offensive coordinator.

 

Re: the bolded - not to defend the likes of Chris Williams, but why did the 2 good starters - Glenn & Wood - get worse under his coaching? And why did it take him so long to play Urbik, who proved to be better than Williams or Cyril Richardson at LG? I don't think it's as simple as "the players were terrible."

 

Hondo, the truth is almost certainly a little of both. "St. Doug" does many things well, including recognizing the areas where he lacks expertise (defense) and luring in top-notch coaching talent to get the most out of the top notch player talent that was already here and the key pieces that were added on D. In addition, he has a common flaw in talented people who don't quite make it to the top - hubris - which blinds him to a realistic assessment of his perceived expertise (offense, OL) and leads him to blame others (the FO) rather than considering other options (his players worked well in other schemes....if the personnel he has don't fit his desired scheme, try other schemes). Like many people who are moderately successful at a "B" level, he appears to be both opportunistic (carefully cultivating the good opinion of people who might help him, and treating critical subordinates very well) and a bully - venting supressed anger or frustration at powerless or non-critical targets. Finally, when crossed, he appears to have trouble letting go and moving on - it wasn't enough to dismiss Casullo, evidently he had to back-stab him in the community such that he hasn't worked in football since Doug fired him. It wasn't enough to leave Pegula in the lurch, he had to ring up Polian and bad mouth the Bills on the way out.

 

I wonder how many of the Saints in the Catholic calendar had a "douche" side? After all, the criteria for canonization is performing miracles...not being a genuinely through and through good guy.

 

Good post! It's tempting to demonize Marrone now that he's gone, but there were always some good aspects of him as a head coach. I'm not very sorry to see him go, and I wasn't very excited about the future with him as HC, but he did get the team to a winning record, which is something. And the team genuinely liked him and played hard for him, even if they didn't always play well for him. He was generally also good about taking responsibility for problems/failures, or at least paying lip service to it. He always deflected all offensive criticism away from Hackett and on to himself, which I liked. (Although I'm told that he more-or-less through the O-line under the bus after the Oakland game, and was basically taking shots at the FO for not getting him good enough players. I don't know; I didn't watch or read his post-game comments. That game was too depressing to wallow in.)

 

Marrone is something of a mixed bag. He strikes me as a decent (but not great) head coach, which sadly was a significant upgrade over Chan. I also tend to believe the abrasive/stubborn/egotistical/etc. accusations against him, because they've come from a variety of sources, including one or two on the record from people who worked for him. The only on-the-record defense of him I've seen was from Greg Gabriel, who (to my knowledge) has never worked directly with Marrone, and whose article IMO was not at all persuasive. But you don't need to be a good person to be a good head coach. And I think he is a good head coach, depending on the definition of "good". Top 10 in the NFL? Doubt it. Top 20? Probably. We've done a lot worse over the last 15 years.

[Lombardi1]

DD is a more accurate assessment.

 

There are Landry's, Noll's, Walsh's Shula's, etc., and then there are Doug "what's in it for me first & foremost" Marrones (what coach identifies with a specialty, OL, yet cannot find an offense even in a Cracker Jack box)? It all starts with the OL, so where Marrone failed them he also failed the team as well. Have to give it to Jim Schwartz and the All-Pro defense selections this season, and the ST's play, for producing a 9-7 season...for without their timely contributions Marrone could have just as easily went 6-10.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Lombardi1

[hondo in seattle]

Hopeful is probably right in saying Marrone is a little bit both SD and DD. Before he quit, I thought Marrone was more SD, but the reports that keep coming out since his departure make me think the DD description may be more accurate.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens to Marrone post-Bills. I won't root for him. I won't root against him. But I will track him out of curiosity.

[dave mcbride]

Yep. His deserves a few votes for coach of the year comment came after they had just beat the Pack and had done great against Elway and Rodgers in two consecutive weeks. A lot of people were riding high on the Bills and Marrone then.

 

Until the next week "when they did the most billsy thing they could possibly do."

I think you mean Manning, but really, did the Bills shut down Manning and the Broncos? They scored TDs on 3 of their first 6 possessions and were in cruise control with a 21-3 lead by the early 3rd quarter. Manning had the 2 picks (the second one was after the Broncos had the game in hand), but he completed 70 percent of his passes for 8.6 ypa. He didn't have passing TDs, but they had 3 rushing TDs after he got them in close through the passing game. Anyway, the idea that the Bills shut down Manning is a convenient myth. That game was over pretty early, relatively speaking, and the Broncos moved the ball pretty easily through the air in the first 33 minutes of the game. I felt like the Bills had no chance in that game and that Denver moved the ball with relative ease when it counted.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201412070den.htm

Edited January 6, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

I think you mean Manning, but really, did the Bills shut down Manning and the Broncos? They scored TDs on 3 of their first 6 possessions and were in cruise control with a 21-3 lead by the early 3rd quarter. Manning had the 2 picks (the second one was after the Broncos had the game in hand), but he completed 70 percent of his passes for 8.6 ypa. He didn't have passing TDs, but they had 3 rushing TDs after he got them in close through the passing game. Anyway, the idea that the Bills shut down Manning is a convenient myth. That game was over pretty early, relatively speaking, and the Broncos moved the ball pretty easily through the air in the first 33 minutes of the game. I felt like the Bills had no chance in that game and that Denver moved the ball with relative ease when it counted.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201412070den.htm

You saw the game. They really did well against him. They only had 15 first downs the whole game. He only had about two really good throws the whole game. He looked flustered. One of the TD drives was a gift on the third down penalty when the Bills stopped them even if it was called on AWilliams. The WR ran right into Williams. Another TD drive was another gift from the 3rd down interference against Gilmore and they gave them 15 yards for Hughes getting pissed off (declining the interference) but that's a 50+ FG attempt not a TD. He had 173 yards. The second half they completely shut him down.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Re: the bolded - not to defend the likes of Chris Williams, but why did the 2 good starters - Glenn & Wood - get worse under his coaching? And why did it take him so long to play Urbik, who proved to be better than Williams or Cyril Richardson at LG? I don't think it's as simple as "the players were terrible."

 

Good post! It's tempting to demonize Marrone now that he's gone, but there were always some good aspects of him as a head coach. )

 

Marrone is something of a mixed bag. He strikes me as a decent (but not great) head coach, which sadly was a significant upgrade over Chan. (...) But you don't need to be a good person to be a good head coach. And I think he is a good head coach, depending on the definition of "good". Top 10 in the NFL? Doubt it. Top 20? Probably. We've done a lot worse over the last 15 years.

 

Thanks for the kind words! I also agree that a man doesn't have to be a good person to be a good head coach. I do think people may mistake correlation for causation - Polian was a brilliant GM and Belichek is a brilliant HC in spite of, not because of, being jerks in some ways.

 

I share your question about the good OL starters regressing. Either the scheme and coaching sucked, or the players just didn't fit the scheme. Part of being a successful head coach is to put players in a position to succeed. I also think it's telling that it's come out the FO wanted Marrone to give some players more of a look and were frustrated when he benched them - Kouandjio and Woods for example.

 

I'm a little interested by your assessment of Marrone as a significant upgrade to Chan, especially given your (correct I think) assessment that without Schwartz and the D, Marrone could have easily had another 6-10 year. I saw Chan as being a good offensive coach whose fatal flaws were lack of ability/interest in coaching D coupled with inability to attract a top-notch DC; Chan also needed to hire a talented OC and put more time into serving as a true HC, but his overall contacts/ability to hire talented assistants wasn't where one would like to see. I see Marrone as having a gift for recruiting top-notch people when he wants to and a similar fatal flaw in that he put too much time into OC/OL coaching, but without Chan's actual talents for O!

 

I think Chan with Schwartz as DC would have been a winning season, no question, especially in 2011 but neither of them were the "complete package" for the long run.

 

Here's hoping our new coach is all that.

[Kelly the Dog]

Thanks for the kind words! I also agree that a man doesn't have to be a good person to be a good head coach. I do think people may mistake correlation for causation - Polian was a brilliant GM and Belichek is a brilliant HC in spite of, not because of, being jerks in some ways.

 

I share your question about the good OL starters regressing. Either the scheme and coaching sucked, or the players just didn't fit the scheme. Part of being a successful head coach is to put players in a position to succeed. I also think it's telling that it's come out the FO wanted Marrone to give some players more of a look and were frustrated when he benched them - Kouandjio and Woods for example.

 

I'm a little interested by your assessment of Marrone as a significant upgrade to Chan, especially given your (correct I think) assessment that without Schwartz and the D, Marrone could have easily had another 6-10 year. I saw Chan as being a good offensive coach whose fatal flaws were lack of ability/interest in coaching D coupled with inability to attract a top-notch DC; Chan also needed to hire a talented OC and put more time into serving as a true HC, but his overall contacts/ability to hire talented assistants wasn't where one would like to see. I see Marrone as having a gift for recruiting top-notch people when he wants to and a similar fatal flaw in that he put too much time into OC/OL coaching, but without Chan's actual talents for O!

 

I think Chan with Schwartz as DC would have been a winning season, no question, especially in 2011 but neither of them were the "complete package" for the long run.

 

Here's hoping our new coach is all that.

I think if Chan was HC last year with Schwartz on D and all things the same, we are in the playoffs for sure.

[dave mcbride]

You saw the game. They really did well against him. They only had 15 first downs the whole game. He only had about two really good throws the whole game. He looked flustered. One of the TD drives was a gift on the third down penalty when the Bills stopped them even if it was called on AWilliams. The WR ran right into Williams. Another TD drive was another gift from the 3rd down interference against Gilmore and they gave them 15 yards for Hughes getting pissed off (declining the interference) but that's a 50+ FG attempt not a TD. He had 173 yards. The second half they completely shut him down.

I indeed watched the game. I watched him struggle a little, but not much. I also watched the Bills give up td after td. As for the PI call on Gilmore, I was apoplectic. But after I calmed down and saw it again the next day I realized that it was arguably the right call. It was bang bang, and Gilmore did get there a tad early. Anyway, when the score got to 21-3, Manning was 8-12 for 136 yards (a gaudy 11.3 ypa) and 1 INT.

 

And you know as well as I that the mistaken call on Robey was really on Williams, who very clearly held (it was on the all-22).

 

Rose colored glasses.

Edited January 6, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Kelly the Dog]

I indeed watched the game. I watched him struggle a little, but not much. I also watched the Bills give up td after td. As for the PI call on Gilmore, I was apoplectic. But after I calmed down and saw it again the next day I realized that it was arguably the right call. It was bang bang, and Gilmore did get there a tad early. Anyway, when the score got to 21-3, Manning was 8-12 for 136 yards (a gaudy 11.3 ypa) and 1 INT.

 

And you know as well as I that the mistaken call on Robey was really on Williams, who very clearly held (it was on the all-22).

 

Rose colored glasses.

I said even if it was on Williams and it looked to me that the WR (Thomas?) ran 10-12 yards straight at and into Williams. And I also watched the Gilmore play about 29 times and yes it was bang bang but I don't think he got there early, I think it was exactly the same time, and surely the right call on a play like, that no matter who you are rooting for, is to give it to the team that made the play on 3rd and 8 and not to the team that didn't make the play.

[DC Greg]

Pretty standard comic book format here. St. Doug is just the clever facade the villain uses to fool the public into thinking he is a legitimate human. The only real Doug is underneath: Douche Doug, super villain.

[TheFunPolice]

Marrone might have really screwed up his career.

 

He went from the Bills offering him MORE $$ and security (reportedly) or at the VERY least wanting him to stay on an up and coming team with a stacked defense and an aging Patriots* team in the division to likely not having a HC gig next season.

 

If he doesn't land a HC gig now I don't see how he becomes a hot name again, given that he does not call plays as an OC.

 

He could go the Munchak route: coach someone's OL to prominence (although that didn't work out too well). Even if he did, that isn't likely to shoot him up the list of HC candidates.

 

Just ask Brian Schottenheimer how quickly "being the hot candidate" can end.

 

I seriously wonder if St. Doug has some emotional issues going on. What he did was self-destructive.

Edited January 6, 2015 by TheFunPolice

[bmur66]

Could it be he was just a guy trying to do a job the best he knew how? Sometimes being responsible means pissing people off.

[Buftex]

The interesting thing about the Polian and Marrone connection is that Polian seems to like him from afar. I assume they have met at functions. But Polian and Marrone were never working in the same place at the same time so how well do they really know each other? How well does Polian know what kind of guy Marrone was behind closed doors? Maybe Polian is finding out a lot of this stuff for the first time too.

I always kind of assumed that Polian's admiration for Marrone was based, in part, simply from the fact that are both sort of New York football "tough guys"..as I recall Polian had a little reputation back in the 90's for being a little tough on Bills front office people as well...so that kind of thing wouldn't have necessarily scared him off on Marrone. And since they both kind of came up in the sport, via New York City (or really Brooklyn & the Bronx), while they may not know eachother overly well on a personal basis (I don't know that for a fact), I assume they know a lot of the same people... to me, Marrone comes off as a kind of Parcells wannabe, some days, but without any rings to warrant the same kind of respect as Parcells.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Buftex

[Kelly the Dog]

I always kind of assumed that Polian's admiration for Marrone was based, in part, simply from the fact that are both sort of New York football "tough guys"..as I recall Polian had a little reputation back in the 90's for being a little tough on Bills front office people as well...so that kind of thing wouldn't have necessarily scared him off on Marrone. And since they both kind of came up in the sport, via New York City (or really Brooklyn & the Bronx), while they may not know eachother overly well on a personal basis (I don't know that for a fact), I assume they know a lot of the same people...

Yep. Agree with all that. They may not have ever spent much time in the same room, but they definitely never worked together.

[Dopey]

He's gone guys. Leave it alone. It seemed most on this board wanted him gone. Can't wait 'till we find a coaching staff. Maybe we can end this Marrone stuff. Getting kinda repetitive, no matter what the title of the thread is.

[TheFunPolice]

I think St. Doug wants a do-over

 

He made a rash decision and over-estimated how good he was. He did get $4 million and will probably find a spot as an assistant on some staff but still.

 

What an unexpected and incredible fall. He went from HC of a young up and coming team with a vote of confidence from ownership to probably being OL coach for the Saints or something.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

It will be interesting to see what happens to Marrone post-Bills. I won't root for him. I won't root against him. But I will track him out of curiosity.

 

Yoip!

He's gone guys. Leave it alone. It seemed most on this board wanted him gone. Can't wait 'till we find a coaching staff. Maybe we can end this Marrone stuff. Getting kinda repetitive, no matter what the title of the thread is.

 

I can't say I wanted him gone. But I wanted change on the offensive side of the ball next year for sure, a different OC (thinking the OC was responsible for his sphere of responsibility) and a different OL coach (ditto). I was a bit upset when I heard he left, until the Polian bad-mouthing and goodbye-text stuff came out.

Then it was "don't let the door hitcha where the Good Lord Splitcha!"

 

Fear not, right now it's kind of like a train wreck, hard to look away even if you know there's really nothing more to see. But interest will turn elsewhere soon.

Why not start your own diversionary thread instead of just b*tching?

 

Gronkowski for President!