A Few Thoughts About The Bills, in no particular order......

[SectionC3]

Welcome back Bill. Agree with the thoughts on Marrone and Spiller. One (Spiller) is a good guy who I hope finds good things at his next stop, and the other, as was said here during the year, is a guy who acts like a bully and coaches like a wimp. Before one acts like Parcells one must win like Parcells, and I don't see that for Doug in the future. I'm glad he's gone.

 

Another Doug point. Local media was once part of my life, and it is VERY interesting to me to hear the media either dumping on Doug or standing idly by as others do him dirty. This suggests to me that he was the punk that the recent reports have cast him to be.

 

On the fred issue, I totally agree. He's a warrior, and he maybe has another year as a third down back, but he's done as even a tandem back.

 

On Sammy, I disagree with BADOLBEELZ to the extent that he wouldn't make the trade. I wouldn't deal Sammy for Justin Gilbert and whomever goes at 19 this year (think a Shazier-type of guy) if given the chance. But, the idea of taking a QB high every year is a brilliant one and spot on.

 

By the way, you guys are tow of my favorite posters here. Love the knowledge and the discourse.

[Big C]

The quotes don't work right and it is very hard to follow this thread!

[BADOLBILZ]

You know I agree with you, but they couldn't have drafted rodgers because they spent their 2005 first round pick in 2004 to take a qb (losman).

 

 

No, they would have selected JP Losman instead of Lee Evans. And it would have been a pick that didn't work out that would have had little impact on the organization long term. And hey, maybe the second round pick they sent to Dallas would have been a good player to help make up for not having Lee Evans.

[GunnerBill]

First off welcome back Bill your posts are always missed.

 

On Freddie I also sadly agree. He had noticeably lost a step this year and more of those plays where he would have take a run or a dump off that looked dead for a first down were ending 2 or 3 yards shy of the marker. I am ok with him staying on the roster as a 4th back in a situational role, but there is no way he should be taking a significant number of snaps at running back next year. My slight worry is without him in pass protection. Boobie Dixon showed some improvement in his pass blocking skills as the year went on and he seems like the honest kind of kid who wants to learn so maybe he can develop into the guy to have in on passing downs.

 

I also agree on CJ Spiller. Big play guy, yea sure, but for me he doesn't get north to south quick enough when clear air is there. If it isn't a huge chasm he doesn't run through it he keeps on bouncing. I'm not suggesting he should be a between the tackles runner as Hackett has tried to use him, but more that you don't need to bound right to the sideline for space. There are often gaps to be had for 4/5/6 yards once you get just outside the hash marks and I wish he'd take those more. If he did I guarantee in the long run those big ones down the sideline would be available to him. He would have to be willing to take a very significant home town discount for me to have him back. We should draft a young back.

 

I also agree with the re-sign requests on defense. I would pay Jerry Hughes, especially given that our linebacking corps are likely to be very cheap given Kiko, Bradham and Brown are our presumptive starters. It might only be one year with 4 big salaries on that line or at most 2 before Kyle is likely moved on and/or Mario restructures. I also think D'Norris Searcy is a must keep. The more this guy sees the field the better he gets. The kind of solid under the radar contributor every single good NFL team needs.

 

Where I have to disagree I'm afraid is on Jay Cutler. I can't see him as the answer for this team. Firstly, I'm not actually sure he shakes loose in Chicago. I suspect they ask the new Head Coach to give it one more go with him and secondly I think he could do more harm than good. Sure he makes some great plays, but he makes his fair share of bonehead plays too and coming with a big cap number if you trade for him? Not for me. Although I confess I don't know where the better options are... I'd still rather kick the tyres on Bradford if he shakes loose. Mallett might be worth bringing into camp but I think there will be competition for him, not least from Houston, and that means you have to win a contract war to get him here. I am not convinced enough to give him multiple years and anything like true starter money.

 

And on the Sammy trade - I think a lot of people believe that a trade up in the 1st, costing a future 1, should only be for a Quarterback. If you start from that preconception you will never see the trade as a good thing. However, I think already the cost of one #10 overall, one #19 overall and a 4th rounder looks pretty reasonable. Had Whaley miscalculated and we had ended up giving up a top 5 pick then it is a different story. But that price for a guy who could be a seminal player with this team for the next decade? I think it is a deal that will prove its worth.

 

Finally, and I don't want to derail this into yet another debate on the merits of "drafting a Quarterback early every year until you find one", however, what is interesting in that list is that since 2008 and Flacco none of those available at our 1st pick have amounted to anything. Clearly Wilson was a huge miss before anyone brings that up again and I agree we could have taken more mid round shots on guys - but there does seem to me to be a trend away from Colleges producing pro-ready Quarterbacks. Take someone like Kaepernick... who is listed as another we have missed on (he needs a big bounce back next year by the way he played poorly in 2014) he was not ready to play off the bat. He sat for a year and a half before he got his shot. If so many of the guys coming out need that kind of acclimatisation then you are picking your next one before that one has even seen the field. Then the CBA becomes an issue. Because you have your stop gap vet who you probably want to start year 1 with and the guy you drafted year 1. By camp in year 2 how do you possible give that vet and your previous pick sufficient reps to have a genuine competition whilst at the same time giving your new pick a chance to show what he is made of? I just think in practice there are too many issues with it as a theory. I understand where it comes from and I am certainly of the view that if there is a guy you really like who falls to you and is proper value at that pick you should never not take him on the basis that "you might already have something on your roster" but that is different to actively seeking out a Quarterback every single year and the chances of that happening in round 1 are slim unless you are drafting right up in the top 5/6 picks.

[Gugny]

Bill, I'm glad to see you back.

 

I thought Fred wouldn't make it through the season, but he did. But it would be foolish to not prepare for post-Fred. Because of this, as unpopular as it is, I believe keeping Spiller is very important - about which we clearly disagree. We got a glimpse of Dixon/Brown. It wasn't pretty. Jackson/Spiller was awesome. Replace Jackson; keep Spiller; stay awesome.

 

I'm one of the guys "in love" with Whaley, but I understand why some are a little skeptical/unsold. I hope the Pegulas give him all of the decision-making, as well as a blank check, to get done what he wants to.

 

Not sold on Dalton. Also not ready to declare that EJ sucks. Most QBs suck after their first 12 career starts; and EJ looked good in more than a handful of his.

 

Gilmore, Hughes, Searcy - I agree 100%.

 

Levitre - if he'll take guard money, I'm with you. He's not worth tackle money.

 

Not big on Cutler or Mallet. Would rather see a draft and Sanchez fight it out with EJ.

 

Again ... happy to see you back. GO BILLS!!!!

[KD in CA]

#1: according to several talent experts on the board, Luck is nothing special.

#2: I'm so used to the Bills not scoring at the end of the half I don't even notice anymore.

#5: HAHAHA....good memories of Bill being correct on draft day.

#8: Yes. So tired of the "just use him correctly" excuses.

#13: You too Bill, good to hear from you.

[DrDawkinstein]

I havent even had a chance to read this yet, but was so happy and excited to see a Bill thread at the top of the page I had to post to say "welcome back around!"

[JohnC]

Bill from the Big Apple,

 

You are unrecognizable in your praise of Gilmore. You are recognizable with your consistent rejection of Spiller.

 

If you add Spiller to a team with a good OL and an OC who knows how to use the individual talents of players you would get production instead of wasted abilities.

 

Watkins is capable of being a special player with a legitimate franchise qb throwing to him. Looking back on that deal ( which I supported) and witnessing the quality and quantify of receivers in that draft and factoring in our dismal qbing situation the doubters of that costly transaction can not be challenged. In order to justify that deal and get a reasonable return on it the front office has to come up with a credible starting qb.

 

I'm not a believer in the approach of drafting qbs in bulk in order to raise the odds of hitting on a long shot bet. If there is no qb in the draft pool you have a conviction on as a long term solution then don't waste precious draft picks. In my estimation the best approach this organization should take is to find a good veteran bridge qb until it is in position to select a credible prospect.

 

Orton was arguably the worst starting qb in the league. And yet he gave the team the best chance to succeed. What does that say about the qb they drafted in the first round two years ago? If a Josh McCown type of qb was our starter I'm very confident that this current team would have been in the playoffs.

 

Anyone who watches the playoffs understands that unless you have a good qb you have little chance to be a participant in post season games. As Gotham Bill pointed out Dalton is an average qb at best. He is demonstrably better than anyone we have. With that caliber of qb (average) the Bills would move up the ranks.

 

It is futile and exasperating to look back. But it is my view that Buddy Nix set this franchise back by many years when he passed on reasonable options in the draft in selecting a qb. His selection as a GM was not only absurd but it was laughable.

 

Whaley has done more good things than bad. It would be a mistake to bring in another GM and again rework the front office. However, what disturbs me very much is how far he was off in the OT Kugo pick. If he wasn't a second round pick he would have been cut early in training camp. This laggard franchise can't afford such egregious mistakes.

 

Bill, stay active. This forum is elevated with your participation. I want to put you on notice that if Spiller goes to an organization that knows what it is doing I will be the first person to loudly say "I told you so." He is a good person who deserves to be with a more competent organization.

Edited January 5, 2015 by JohnC

[34-78-83]

Good points Bill and good to see your post. Only part I can't understand is the interest in Mallet. He has shown less than nothing, and even looked like an old Bledsoe while in college.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Some of my comments will be repetitive in terms of my opinions over the years. If this bothers anyone, do feel free to ignore. In any event.....

 

1) Did you see the difference today between Luck and Dalton? It was clearly monumental. That said, Dalton is WAY better than Orton. Imo not even in the same league. This says a lot in terms of the Bills. Orton and EJ suck. Period. Yet, the team went 9-7.

 

You're correct. That said, point to ponder: Dalton is a different QB +/- AJ Green.

 

2) Brandon needs to be fired. He is to be held responsible for hiring a sub-par coach to a contract which will cost the Pegulas 4 million or so. I saw a stat today.....The Bills were LAST in terms of scoring points inside the 2 minute warning before the half.

 

While I don't disagree about Brandon (the Bills FO is one constant in 14 bad years, and obviously the people there are habituated to losing), I think his contract may be overblown. Many head coaches get some sort of guarantee that they'll be retained 3 years and/or paid...Marrone evidently had a 4 yr contract. We don't know what was guaranteed. So one point of view is maybe it's just what they'd have paid if they fired him after 2 yrs? We paid Gailey to sit home IIRC

 

3) This will piss people off, but Fred Jackson, however loveable, is probably done. It hurts to say this but it's true. TJ Yeldon is a young Fred Jackson. They even look alike in terms of size, moves, and ability to catch and block. And he is 2 steps faster. I HATE wasting picks on running backs, but I have seen every game Yeldon has played. He would be a HUGE asset to the Buffalo Bills Football Team.

 

4) Whaley, imo, gets his ass kissed on this board. I am not a Whaley hater, but I am not as in love with the guy as are many here. It truly pisses me off that we don't have a first round pick this year. I think the trade to take Watkins was ill advised. That said, Watkins is great imo, so I am unsure about how to judge Mr. Whaley. Bottom line is that we have a potentially great wide receiver with no QB. I think that this makes little sense but it CAN work I suppose.

 

Whaley both gets kissed and kicked more than he deserves here IMO. At this point on Whaley, I am where I am about some players under Marrone: if they didn't see the field is it because they don't have it, or is it because Marrone was playing politics or holding grudges or just sucked at player development? With Whaley, I think he's under a lot of direction still from Brandon, Overdorf, Littman etc who clearly still have (had?) a lot of power. Watch the video of the 2014 draft in another thread if you haven't. Whaley is handling the phone. He is smooth and confident - he's either done this before, or he's spent a lot of time in a War Room where dealing was common (Pitts?). He's also straight faced - hard to read his emotions. Brandon, Overdorf, and Monos in contrast are giddy, practically manic! Gesturing, talking quickly at Whaley. After it's done, Brandon is throwing his fist in the air, huge grin. Whaley waits, straight faced and professional. After a while, he raises his hands and claps. After watching that video, I wonder how much that trade was Whaley's and how much the "Old Guard" especially Brandon (newly President and free from Wilson's control). I came away with the impression that Whaley was running the negotiations but far from controlling the process. Which brings me back to your Point 2.

 

8) John C, take note again.....CJ Spiller sucks. Against the Raiders, he missed two blocks on one play. He is virtually worthless. It's time to cut the chord my friend. He is an nexpensive bag of S%&t.

 

CJ Spiller was never the blocker that FredEx is, but under Gailey, he blocked competently. Spiller was poorly utilized all year. I can't blame him entirely if by the end of the year, he was more about himself and not up with sacrificing his body in an ineffective offense. I would like to see what he looks like under a competent coach who utilizes him correctly. Which is something we may well see, wearing someone elses's uniform. (Someone else confirmed the missed blocks were in NE, the final game after we were eliminated from contention, not the game where playoffs were still possible. So he protected himself from injury in a meaningless game in his contract year. I don't admire it, but I give him a pass)

 

9) Rex Ryan went to the playoffs with a qb who sucks. On the worst day of his nlife he was a better coach than Marrone. I would be more than OK with Rex.

 

I don't deny Rex has not had harmony with his FO to get him the players he needs, but saying he's a better coach than Marrone is setting too low a bar. He's a bloviating loudmouth who is sometimes a distraction. There are good coaches who are not distractions and can do more with less

 

10 We desperately need guards. If Levitre really does get cut and is healthy, we should absolutely sign him. He was our best guard since Ruben Brown and I suspect that he has been playing hurt. We also need to draft one, perhaps 2.

 

Whether or not this makes sense depends upon what sort of blocking scheme the new HC/OC want to run. If Levitre has been playing hurt for 2 years, what will heal him and make him effective again?

 

12) QB? I would take Cutler (at the right cost) and/or Mallett, AND a draft pick.

 

If we're going to name QB who are under contract and will likely command a hefty trade, or QB whose current teams have no one and will probably resign them PDQ, why don't we go for someone really good like Rodgers or Peyton Manning? If you would like Cutler, what would you give up for him in trade? Or who do you like off the list of available free agent QB? I would like to see Matt Moore or Sanchez, who in Philidephia actually looked like a competent NFL QB, as the best of a thin lot.

 

13) God bless you all, and GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My comments interspersed in italics. Enjoyed your post, Bill, and Happy New Year to you and yours.

You do realize that if Marrone was fired, like many wanted him to be, the Bills would owe him $8MM?

Do we know this, PtR?

 

We know that when a player or coach signs a contract, part of it is often guaranteed, even if the player is cut or the coach fired.

We know that often, the whole contract is not guaranteed.

We know that Marrone had a 4 year contract

We know that Marrone likely had some guaranteed money.

Do we know for a fact that it was all 4 years? I ask because I haven't read this anywhere.

 

If I were negotiating his contract and he insisted on an opt-out after an ownership change, I would say, "OK, and we'll give you 3 guaranteed years, not 4".

I would ask for something back. That way if he leaves, it's more or less just like me firing him after 2 yrs except he gets to choose.

 

Maybe they did maybe they didn't - do you know? Linky?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Hopeful

[mannc]

 

Do we know this, PtR?

 

We know that when a player or coach signs a contract, part of it is often guaranteed, even if the player is cut or the coach fired.

We know that often, the whole contract is not guaranteed.

We know that Marrone had a 4 year contract

We know that Marrone likely had some guaranteed money.

Do we know for a fact that it was all 4 years? I ask because I haven't read this anywhere.

 

If I were negotiating his contract and he insisted on an opt-out after an ownership change, I would say, "OK, and we'll give you 3 guaranteed years, not 4".

I would ask for something back. That way if he leaves, it's more or less just like me firing him after 2 yrs except he gets to choose.

 

Maybe they did maybe they didn't - do you know? Linky?

Coaches' contracts are different. If Marrone was fired this year, he would most likely have been owed the money for the last two years, less any other money he earns from other sources during that time. So if he was immediately hired by another team as their offensive coordinator (ha!) at $1 million year, that would be deducted from what the Bills owed him. Reportedly, that is not the case with the opt out.

[metzelaars_lives]

Some of my comments will be repetitive in terms of my opinions over the years. If this bothers anyone, do feel free to ignore. In any event.....

 

1) Did you see the difference today between Luck and Dalton? It was clearly monumental. That said, Dalton is WAY better than Orton. Imo not even in the same league. This says a lot in terms of the Bills. Orton and EJ suck. Period. Yet, the team went 9-7.

 

2) Brandon needs to be fired. He is to be held responsible for hiring a sub-par coach to a contract which will cost the Pegulas 4 million or so. I saw a stat today.....The Bills were LAST in terms of scoring points inside the 2 minute warning before the half. I talked about this with BADOLBEELZ during the season. There is no excuse for this. Marrone is nothing but a Brandon crony. He is mediocre at best and I am glad to see him gone. "Obviously."

 

3) This will piss people off, but Fred Jackson, however loveable, is probably done. It hurts to say this but it's true. TJ Yeldon is a young Fred Jackson. They even look alike in terms of size, moves, and ability to catch and block. And he is 2 steps faster. I HATE wasting picks on running backs, but I have seen every game Yeldon has played. He would be a HUGE asset to the Buffalo Bills Football Team.

 

4) Whaley, imo, gets his ass kissed on this board. I am not a Whaley hater, but I am not as in love with the guy as are many here. It truly pisses me off that we don't have a first round pick this year. I think the trade to take Watkins was ill advised. That said, Watkins is great imo, so I am unsure about how to judge Mr. Whaley. Bottom line is that we have a potentially great wide receiver with no QB. I think that this makes little sense but it CAN work I suppose.

 

5) John C, take note. Gilmore, at the end of the season, looked good. I am NOT, nor ever will be about top ten picks being used on corners, but imo Gilmore came a long way.

 

6) The Bills need to offer Hughes 50 million for 5 years and see what he says. He isn't a great player, but he is talented and imo smart. And of course he provides pass rush.

 

7) Keep Searcy!!!!!

 

8) John C, take note again.....CJ Spiller sucks. Against the Raiders, he missed two blocks on one play. He is virtually worthless. It's time to cut the chord my friend. He is an nexpensive bag of S%&t.

 

9) Rex Ryan went to the playoffs with a qb who sucks. On the worst day of his nlife he was a better coach than Marrone. I would be more than OK with Rex.

 

10 We desperately need guards. If Levitre really does get cut and is healthy, we should absolutely sign him. He was our best guard since Ruben Brown and I suspect that he has been playing hurt. We also need to draft one, perhaps 2.

 

 

11) If all you got to live for,

is what you left behind,

get yourself a powder charge

and seal that silver mine.

I lost my boots in transit babe,

A pile of smoking leather.

Nailed a retread to my feet

and prayed for better weather.

 

12) QB? I would take Cutler (at the right cost) and/or Mallett, AND a draft pick.

 

13) God bless you all, and GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey bill, welcome back. I'm going to call you out on #2. Last year at Miami the bills had the ball with under two minutes in the first half and something like a 7 point lead from let's say their own 30. They tried (as I would have) to pass the ball with the hopes of maybe getting into field goal range and increasing their lead before the half. Instead they went 3 and out, punted and Miami marched down the field and scored before the half. After the game you absolutely berated marrone for his clock 'mismanagement' insisting they should have run the clock out and protected their small lead, and in fact cited that instance as an example of marrone's inability to manage the clock throughout the season. It was a point of contention for me with you that I called you out on several times. The moral of the story is you can't have it both ways- you cannot call them out for their lack of points in the last two minutes of the first half when you want them to go uber-conservative every time they have a 7 point lead in said situation. Edited January 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[TC in St. Louis]

I would like to know which franchise quarterback will be available with the 19th pick in this year's draft.

 

Also, I'd like to know how you all think O'Dell Beckham Jr. would have done in Buffalo with EJ/Orton throwing to him. Would we have won 9 games with him instead of Sammy?

 

Most people had us taking the tight end from UNC with the 9th pick. Would Ebram have helped us get to 9-7?

 

There won't be a franchise quarterback available at #19. However, we can sign a free agent guard who is of greater value than the 19th pick in the draft. And move on. It's a money game.

 

With a good quarterback and a better line coach, the sky is the limit for Sammy, Woods, Hogan, Marquise Goodwin, et. al.

 

I don't know if Cutler is a guy for us, but I guarantee he has a chip on his shoulder and is still looking for the right place to become a star. His arm is amazing. His head is swimmy.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

Your back!!!!!!!!!!

 

I noticed there is no hug emotion so you get the picture!

 

 

CBF

[Fan in Chicago]

Some of my comments will be repetitive in terms of my opinions over the years. If this bothers anyone, do feel free to ignore. In any event.....

 

2) Brandon needs to be fired. He is to be held responsible for hiring a sub-par coach to a contract which will cost the Pegulas 4 million or so. I saw a stat today.....The Bills were LAST in terms of scoring points inside the 2 minute warning before the half. I talked about this with BADOLBEELZ during the season. There is no excuse for this. Marrone is nothing but a Brandon crony. He is mediocre at best and I am glad to see him gone. "Obviously."

 

4) Whaley, imo, gets his ass kissed on this board. I am not a Whaley hater, but I am not as in love with the guy as are many here. It truly pisses me off that we don't have a first round pick this year. I think the trade to take Watkins was ill advised. That said, Watkins is great imo, so I am unsure about how to judge Mr. Whaley. Bottom line is that we have a potentially great wide receiver with no QB. I think that this makes little sense but it CAN work I suppose.

 

 

9) Rex Ryan went to the playoffs with a qb who sucks. On the worst day of his nlife he was a better coach than Marrone. I would be more than OK with Rex.

 

10 We desperately need guards. If Levitre really does get cut and is healthy, we should absolutely sign him. He was our best guard since Ruben Brown and I suspect that he has been playing hurt. We also need to draft one, perhaps 2.

 

 

12) QB? I would take Cutler (at the right cost) and/or Mallett, AND a draft pick.

 

13) God bless you all, and GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4. I am willing to give Whaley more control and then see where the roster and coaching shakes out. I think the man has an eye for talent, especially hidden. As for the OL misses, I am not totally convinced that Kujo et al are disasters because the overall OL regression may have alot to do with Marrone and Pat Morris.

 

9. I am absolutely no fan of Rex Ryan.

 

10. Agree on needing guards but may want to check what Kujo does with a new OC and OL coach

 

12. Absolute NO to Cutler. He is a head case and everything is always an excuse to cover up for his lack of intangibles. You know as much as anybody that a big arm by itself doesn't a QB make.

[Bill from NYC]

Hey bill, welcome back. I'm going to call you out on #2. Last year at Miami the bills had the ball with under two minutes in the first half and something like a 7 point lead from let's say their own 30. They tried (as I would have) to pass the ball with the hopes of maybe getting into field goal range and increasing their lead before the half. Instead they went 3 and out, punted and Miami marched down the field and scored before the half. After the game you absolutely berated marrone for his clock 'mismanagement' insisting they should have run the clock out and protected their small lead, and in fact cited that instance as an example of marrone's inability to manage the clock throughout the season. It was a point of contention for me with you that I called you out on several times. The moral of the story is you can't have it both ways- you cannot call them out for their lack of points in the last two minutes of the first half when you want them to go uber-conservative every time they have a 7 point lead in said situation.

 

 

But maybe in a way you can. Both of us know that there are factors to consider:

1) What team are you playing?

2) Who gets the ball in the 2nd half?

3) Wind situation.

4) How many timeouts do you and your opponent have?

 

In some situations it pays to be conservative and sometimes it's good to be aggressive. It's never good when Spiller runs out of bounds and saves a timeout for the opponent before a punt.

Marrone is sitting home with 4 million dollars in his pocket. He was paid quite a bit of money to get things right in these situatuions. And it is certainly not all his fault but LAST in the league?

Unacceptable imo.

 

[thewildrabbit]

Here Bill, just for you.

 

"Buffalo Bills: Cornerback Stephon Gilmore (-3.2 to +7.1) allowed a catch rate of 78.1 over the first half of the season which was fifth-worst among cornerbacks. Over the second half that was down to 48.6 which was 11th-best among cornerbacks."

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/12/30/32-observations-week-17-3/

 

 

I would also take Jay Cutler, and only if the Bills hire Mike Shanahan. As far as Levitre is concerned, I wouldn't mind him back in Buffalo at a reasonable salary, and on the other side they had better get a big time road grader.