Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 If you give up on them after they suck in year one and take a different guy you'll never know. To be fair, he might have a plan to deploy 3 QB formations and revolutionize the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Excellent points all and a good read. I'm curious how you know Marrone wasn't Whaley's guy and that Whaley wanted Whisenhunt? I know Brandon became Bills President on Jan 1 2013. Was Wilson still involved in the HC search which culminated in signing Marrone on Jan 6 2013? Did he still have to sign off? It was written that Marrone was Brandon guy and there was a 2-1 vote with Whaley being the 1 vote against. I never heard Whisenhunt thought. Although I don't doubt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 No, this is not a serious question; this is a piece of pure troll bait. it's a question bill polian was clearly asking. do you feel he isn't a serious nil executive? But that presumes that there's a franchise caliber QB available every year in the draft -- or every other year -- when that's just not true. And if a GM continually spends 1st and 2nd round picks on QBs in back-to-back years, other areas of the team's depth will suffer, making the team less competitive than it was when the GM took over. It's a bad strategy. there's a few franchise qb's every 15 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 There were several reports that the Bills were negotiating with Whisenhunt for the job. There were a lot of conflicting reports about it and him, Marrone and Ray Horton IIRC. I heard in the last few months from a couple different people who would be in a position to know that Marrone was not Whaley's first pick. I think Simon said here that was the case, IIRC, and he has a great pipeline. Others have as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 This roster is loaded with talent and it's his doing in two years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Given that Pegula was hoping to bring Polian in, I'd say he isn't terribly happy with Whaley. The way things worked out, whether he likes him or not, Pegula might be stuck with Whaley for now. From Whaley's point of view, the team tried to bring in an older, more experienced GM who also happens to be on his way to the hall of fame so he has to be aware that he is on borrowed time. Edited January 4, 2015 by Mickey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 There is another problem with using your top draft resources on QB like an involuntary reaction until you get one. How do you define "until you get one"? Tom Brady wasn't ready as a rookie. Neither was Aaron Rodgers. Drew Brees? Nope. Peyton Manning wasn't what he is now, for sure. And the assumption is that the people doing this evaluation can tell. Well, after EJM's rookie season, Whaley determined that he'd "got one" and went all-in to get the first WR in a WR deep draft. A preseason and September later, the "we got one" tea leaves reading looks like it may have been inaccurate. Now for the sake of argument imagine they give up on a guy who later turns into the next Tom Brady for the Dolphins. I think a lot of people would "get one"—a pink slip as the room gets fired by the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Given that Pegula was hoping to bring Polian in, I'd say he isn't terribly happy with Whaley. The way things worked out, whether he likes him or not, Pegula might be stuck with Whaley for now. From Whaley's point of view, the team tried to bring in an older, more experienced GM who also happens to be on his way to the hall of fame so he has to be aware that he is on borrowed time. Given that Polian didnt want to do any "heavy lifting" I am guessing that there were no plans to move Whaley (who frankly should not be moved anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 There is another problem with using your top draft resources on QB like an involuntary reaction until you get one. How do you define "until you get one"? Tom Brady wasn't ready as a rookie. Neither was Aaron Rodgers. Drew Brees? Nope. Peyton Manning wasn't what he is now, for sure. And the assumption is that the people doing this evaluation can tell. Well, after EJM's rookie season, Whaley determined that he'd "got one" and went all-in to get the first WR in a WR deep draft. A preseason and September later, the "we got one" tea leaves reading looks like it may have been inaccurate. Now for the sake of argument imagine they give up on a guy who later turns into the next Tom Brady for the Dolphins. I think a lot of people would "get one"—a pink slip as the room gets fired by the owner. C'mon the answer to that question is so easy to answer for "keep drafting crowd": The Eye Test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 I'm not trying to split hairs either, I'm just questioning how the QB pick is on Whaley but the Kiko pick was Nix's. I have no problem given Whaley credit/blame for the full draft or giving both of them credit/blame but I don't believe it was Nix's in full at all and no individual pick was "his guy". The Nix thing is something I always think of also knowing he wasn't leaving until he drafted a QB. Oh I know. I was just kind of expounding on your point. Agreement friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 No. Totally false. If you take a QB in round one or two for five years and don't hit because most don't hit, you will be gone before you even get a chance to draft five. We are never going to agree on this. The Bills have sucked for 15 years. During that time the one truth is we have had **** at QB. If an owner was GM were forward thinking enough to know that it doesn't matter until you get a QB and had the balls to do this I think it would work. If I were an NFL GM taking over a team with a bad QB situation I would need my owner to understand that we might be really bad for 2 or 3 years. Right now you pretty much have to luck into getting a great QB. So is there any way to make your luck better? Yes, draft more of them. This would be my strategy: Draft a QB on day one or two every year until you find your guy. Of course you want to draft for value so this doesn't mean you are going with a QB in the first round every year. Get the best value on a QB in the first 3 rounds every year. Also if there is a guy in round 1 that you absolutely believe then you can obviously overpay and give up some value. I would also draft one project QB in rounds 4-7 every year. Next, I am never drafting for need during the time I am trying to find a QB. I am always taking the best player available and also always trading down when the value is there, trying to accumulate as many picks as possible over the years. So you are taking shots at QB's and adding picks to coincide with the finding of the QB. It would be radically different from what GM's do now but I think this is a great long term strategy to finding a great QB and setting yourself up for 10-15 years window. You may struggle at first but it would be worth it in the end. If you give up on them after they suck in year one and take a different guy you'll never know. Is that what I said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCOHEN13 Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Marrone wasn't his guy. Whisenhunt was. Marrone was Nix and Brandon's guy. Here is why we should keep him. In his first full season of being a GM, the Bills had problems all over the place. We had serious WR problems, TE, OL, both our RBs had been hurt and CJ in last year, QB, Lb, a little bit at CB, and special teams were a disaster. Whaley, who had come from the Steelers, had a plan. Stock a deep roster than is a mix of old and new, across the board, that is built to last not just load up for the present. You can't fix everything in one year, there were no QBs in FA worth signing. He signed Dixon and traded for Brown for RB creating a four headed monster. Dixon was for short yardage and toughness, brown was slasher and security for CJ if he left this year. He drafted watkins #1 who was a can't miss prospect, traded Stevie who was always hurt and didn't fit the offense Marrone wanted because he freelanced and EJ was going to be throwing the ball to spots. He traded for MWilliams setting up a four headed monster at WR too. A number 1, a possession guy in Woods, a speed demon in Goodwin, and a go up and get it redzone guy in Williams. They all had a role. He signed Chris Williams which was a shaky pick, and spent his #2, #5 and #7 picks on OL. We can argue if they were busts, if they were projects, if Marrone screwed them up. We were terrible against the run. He signed the best run stuffer in the league in Spikes, and drafted Preston Brown who played terrific for a #3 especially after kiko went down. He signed Rivers who was beaten out by Brown but a vet backup. We got killed the year before with Justin Rogers and the 4th cb. He signed Leodis to a contract and he signed Corey Graham to be the #3 as well as had picked up a great slot guy in Robey the year before. We were terrible on special teams. He signed two pro bowl ST players in Graham and Dixon who immediately changed that dynamic. And he signed the punter, as well as re-signed a FA he picked up last year, Dan Carpenter who is tremendous. If he didn't draft Sammy he was going to draft a TE number one, but he had already signed Moeaki who unfortunately, predictably got hurt again, but who is now making plays for the Seahawks. He let Byrd go so he could sign Aaron Williams. Byrd was a huge flame out, williams is solid and a bargain. He signed branch and Charles. Branch didn't try and got in the Doug house so they cut him. But the DL was solid anyway all year. Whaley has built a solid team. This is a very solid round up. He provided the O with weapons and built a dominant D. Also to add.. His in season pickups also paid off. Firstly, at the time, wasnt Marrone UPSET about him signing Orton????? Then when we were in need of kick returner , he gets us Thigpen who was great down the stretch and Bacarri Rambo who was the best 1 hit wonder on the yr on this team! I have alot more faith in Whaley and him being groomed in Pitt system than Moron who was an offensive line coach who took what was deemed a solid OL he inherited from Gailey and it became a huge weakness. Remember in his 1st TC he was talked about running just as fast a pace O as Chip Kelly and we were getting off plays as fast as them but what did our O do with it????? He came from Syracuse as on "innovative offensive coach"????? Where was that AT ALL in his tenure here??? He took a STUD RB and former 1st round pick and RUINED HIM! So happy Moron is gone and the REAL Doug is still here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 This roster is loaded with talent and it's his doing in two years The problem with the "two years" thing is that people want to cherry pick the good moves of 2 years ago and tag them with 'Whaley' and put 'Nix' next to all the fumbles. It's simply fitting the data to a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Oh I know. I was just kind of expounding on your point. Agreement friend I figured you were to start. Just confused as to how people praise one and blame the other in the same draft is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Draft a QB on day one or two every year until you find your guy. Of course you want to draft for value so this doesn't mean you are going with a QB in the first round every year. Get the best value on a QB in the first 3 rounds every year. Considering that no GM in the 100+ year history of the NFL has ever done this or anything close to it, I think you really may be on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 The problem with the "two years" thing is that people want to cherry pick the good moves of 2 years ago and tag them with 'Whaley' and put 'Nix' next to all the fumbles. It's simply fitting the data to a theory. Anyone that doesn't like Whaley does the same think by blaming him for EJ and calling the rest of the draft Nix's. I think they were working the table together and both get the credit/blame for that draft. Last year was all Whaley, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Considering that no GM in the 100+ year history of the NFL has ever done this or anything close to it, I think you really may be on to something. Yep and most coaching punt on 4th and 1 on the other side of the 50 when all statistical analysis shows that it is a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 We are never going to agree on this. The Bills have sucked for 15 years. During that time the one truth is we have had **** at QB. If an owner was GM were forward thinking enough to know that it doesn't matter until you get a QB and had the balls to do this I think it would work. If I were an NFL GM taking over a team with a bad QB situation I would need my owner to understand that we might be really bad for 2 or 3 years. Right now you pretty much have to luck into getting a great QB. So is there any way to make your luck better? Yes, draft more of them. This would be my strategy: Draft a QB on day one or two every year until you find your guy. Of course you want to draft for value so this doesn't mean you are going with a QB in the first round every year. Get the best value on a QB in the first 3 rounds every year. Also if there is a guy in round 1 that you absolutely believe then you can obviously overpay and give up some value. I would also draft one project QB in rounds 4-7 every year. Next, I am never drafting for need during the time I am trying to find a QB. I am always taking the best player available and also always trading down when the value is there, trying to accumulate as many picks as possible over the years. So you are taking shots at QB's and adding picks to coincide with the finding of the QB. It would be radically different from what GM's do now but I think this is a great long term strategy to finding a great QB and setting yourself up for 10-15 years window. You may struggle at first but it would be worth it in the end. Is that what I said? We have not "sucked" for 15 years.....we have been "medicore" for 15 years...... And being "medicore" is worse then "sucking" because you are never in a position to draft a blue chip QB....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Yep and most coaching punt on 4th and 1 on the other side of the 50 when all statistical analysis shows that it is a mistake. No they don't. Some are conservative and some arent. A lot of it is determined by what time of the game it is, obviously the score, how your offense and defense is playing as well as the other teams, there is a huge difference between going for it at the 49 versus the 41, there is an ENORMOUS difference between less than one yard and more than one yard which is still referred to as one yard, etc. Not to mention that if teams went for it all the time that misleading stat about going for it on fourth and 1 goes way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Anyone that doesn't like Whaley does the same think by blaming him for EJ and calling the rest of the draft Nix's. I think they were working the table together and both get the credit/blame for that draft. Last year was all Whaley, obviously. I blame them both. They both worked elbow to elbow in the kitchen. Saying one screwed up the soup by stirring it too much and the other screwed it up by not stirring it enough is, well, comical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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