Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Well like I said I am taking this as year one for Whaley and I will judge him on what his does from here. I am glad you have made your opinion on the offensive line known in multiple threads, but you did not in this one and I am not about to go reading your previous threads that pertain to the offensive line. If you want to criticize then you should be able to counter with your own argument within the thread. If you can't do that, then you lose credibility. The offensive line may be "Marrone's project" but simply making this statement shows how disingenuous you really are. Glenn and Wood are the only lineman that anyone would call quality starters. Whaley let Livitre walk and replaced him with Legursky and Brown. Two guys who don't belong in the league. Is that Marrone's fault? This year he went cheap and signed Chris Williams. He had one great block against the Bears before he got injured and that was pretty much it. It was a FA failure. He drafted a RT in the 2nd who may be out of the league in a year. Marrone's fault too? The personnel on the offensive line is well below average and if you want to pretend that Whaley, the GM has nothing to do with the personnel on the offensive line then you can go ahead and do that and keep laughing when anyone tells you different. Let's get this straight... it's Whaley's first year according to you, but it was his decision to let Levitre walk? How does that work?
Kelly the Dog Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Well like I said I am taking this as year one for Whaley and I will judge him on what his does from here. I am glad you have made your opinion on the offensive line known in multiple threads, but you did not in this one and I am not about to go reading your previous threads that pertain to the offensive line. If you want to criticize then you should be able to counter with your own argument within the thread. If you can't do that, then you lose credibility. The offensive line may be "Marrone's project" but simply making this statement shows how disingenuous you really are. Glenn and Wood are the only lineman that anyone would call quality starters. Whaley let Livitre walk and replaced him with Legursky and Brown. Two guys who don't belong in the league. Is that Marrone's fault? This year he went cheap and signed Chris Williams. He had one great block against the Bears before he got injured and that was pretty much it. It was a FA failure. He drafted a RT in the 2nd who may be out of the league in a year. Marrone's fault too? The personnel on the offensive line is well below average and if you want to pretend that Whaley, the GM has nothing to do with the personnel on the offensive line then you can go ahead and do that and keep laughing when anyone tells you different. Which is more likely: Marrone and Whaley watch film together on the FA OL prospects and the top 20 or so OL draft prospects, and Marrone gives his opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of those players, which Whaley takes into consideration although makes the final decisions himself (along with Overdorf negotiating contracts with FA which may have played a part)... which Marrone himself has said they do... OR... Marrone has no interest or say in who we're signing on the OL in FA and the draft and Whaley doesn't have any interest in what Marrone says about these OL he is signing and drafting and just takes whoever he likes.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Which is more likely: Marrone and Whaley watch film together on the FA OL prospects and the top 20 or so OL draft prospects, and Marrone gives his opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of those players, which Whaley takes into consideration although makes the final decisions himself (along with Overdorf negotiating contracts with FA which may have played a part)... which Marrone himself has said they do... OR... Marrone has no interest or say in who we're signing on the OL in FA and the draft and Whaley doesn't have any interest in what Marrone says about these OL he is signing and drafting and just takes whoever he likes. If it doesn't fit his argument, Proteus considers it "ridiculous".
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Let's get this straight... it's Whaley's first year according to you, but it was his decision to let Levitre walk? How does that work? I am done arguing about this. Whaley is the GM. His has done a terrible job at getting quality offensive lineman. That is his job, that is on him. Pretend all you want that we have an all-star cast on the line and it was all Marrone's fault, I don't care. There is no point in debating with someone who is such a homer that he feels that the our crappy offensive line has nothing to do with Whaley. I am done arguing about this. Whaley is the GM. His has done a terrible job at getting quality offensive lineman. That is his job, that is on him. Pretend all you want that we have an all-star cast on the line and it was all Marrone's fault, I don't care. There is no point in debating with someone who is such a homer that he feels that the our crappy offensive line has nothing to do with Whaley.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Now before answering and before reading this please understand how I am saying this. I am not trying to be a jerk, I am not being sarcastic, I am not bashing I am just trying to wrap my head around why so many think Whaley should still be GM and why the faith in him. I know in print its hard to see how someone is coming across so just imagine we are sitting around having a couple beers, wings and just discussing this. So in looking at Whaley here is what I see so far, he was in on the decision to draft EJ and hire Marrone, two horrible decisions. Now how much decision making did he have in those two decisions? Who knows? What I have read is it SEEMS (again just by what has been said/ printed) Whaley and Bradon wanted to force EJ on Marrone, and it is beyond proven and obvious Marrone and Whaley had issues regardless of what OBD says. Speaking of OBD can we finally agree no matter what its CYA there please? They will tell you that there is nothing to see here, all reports are wrong even if someone had video of it happening. Moving on, here is what I have seen of Whaley in his first year as GM... He signs a FA Guard with tons of ??? on him at Guard and the guy ends up being crap and not playing. Now some will say injuries, but this guy had issues at his last two places and didn't warrant his draft placing. He trades for a WR who hasn't produced since his rookie year, has attitude issues, already has a bad history with our HC And is now on "IR" (wink wink) and we are on the hook cap wise for 5 Mil + next year. He puts his faith in a QB that never should have been drafted in the first round (Was part of that decision), had many knocks against him and all the experts questioned why we took him in the 1st let alone to build this franchise around. He trades away our 1st and 4th this year for a WR who's talent he believes is so clear cut better than anywone else in the Draft that its worth the pick. he also thinks this is the one piece to finally get us over the hump....a rookie WR... Trades a 4th rounder for a RB we never hardly used. I can go on but you are getting the point. So far to me he looks like he has do damn idea what he is doing. Even in Pittsburgh they figured out how the NFL changed and its all about the QB. Now a franchise QB doesn't guarantee you get into the playoffs, but without one you pretty much are screwed. As for as building the Pittsburgh Model they have a Franchise QB, they have ONE RB that carries most of the load with others to back them up. So this building a Pittsburgh model to me is pure nonsense. So just looking at the guy's track record along with no ownership, no "I made that call", "I made that decision" it really bothers me. I just can't have faith in this guy and I can't see how so many are just so happy he is still the GM and have faith in him, So if you all don't mind can we discuss this? Well, we can discuss this if you like, but from how this reads it doesn't look as though you want a discussion, you have an agenda. You seem to be cherry-picking some decisions that didn't work, ignoring other decisions including decisions that did work, and stating rumor and gossip as fact. You are also using words like "never" and "always" that are usually markers for someone who wants an argument, not a discussion. Let's start here: What exactly is the evidence that Marrone did not want EJ, or that Brandon and Whaley "forced" EJ on Marrone? Next: You imply that Whaley does not recognize a QB is the most important position: What is the evidence to support that? You do recognize that the Bills have invested far more on QB than they would have had they just kept Fitz, correct? Many here did think "German Word for Made of Glass" Kolb was an upgrade on Fitz in that we knew Fitz, and Kolb appeared to have more potential to be a high-quality QB. How do you know who wanted to ditch Fitz and sign Kolb? Maybe it was Marrone saying "he's never been a WCO QB, I have a rookie to bring on, get me an experienced WCO QB"? Of course the decision turned out badly, leaving the Bills with 2 rookies and a PS guy to start the season. But the signing argues that the importance of QB was recognized and that the Bills FO was at pains to choose the best of the available options (as does the Orton signing). QBs are in scarce supply - in case you haven't noticed, there's more to acquiring a franchise QB than assuming the lotus position and chanting "We Need a Franchise Guy" to the rhythm of "Om Mane Padme Hum". Question for you: how many teams who drafted a QB high in the 1st round for the last 5 years still have questions at QB, or solved their QB need in a different way? It's just not clear to me what you want Hypothetical Wonderboy GM to do. There are a lot of questions - who made the decision to let Fitz walk when he didn't accept their first low-ball offer? Who wanted Kolb? Marrone was planning to install a WCO. Did he say "Fitz had his chance and he's never been a WCO qb, get me a WCO guy and this Kolb character looks like he might be good?" Was Marrone the one who thought he'd be fine with EJ as his principle option - after all, he'd had success in Syracuse with Nassib. We simply have no evidence on these points. If you think we do, please prove that you want a discussion by citing it. There is also increasing evidence that Marrone evaluated players based on criteria other than talent - the unquoted source that he benched a healthy Goodwin late in the season because he wouldn't play injured early in the season "gotta be available", that he wouldn't take further looks at OLmen the FO thought to be quality players such as Kouandjio and Urbik - the latter having shown himself a competent guard last year, certainly above the level where our OL started the season. It's a fact that NE whiffed some early games because their OL sucked and Brady didn't have time. This was followed by a rapid OL shakeup *with players already on the roster* that gave Brady time and hey presto. But Marrone refused to make a move until the bye week, even when the film had to tell him his OL wasn't cutting the mustard. How is that on Whaley if Marrone is too stubborn to make adjustments? And yes, Chris Williams didn't pan out as a guard for the Bills. There's no "some will say injuries", he was, in fact, injured and IR'd early in the season. The Rams didn't offer him a 2nd contract in 2013 for $2.75M because they thought he was crap and really, when a guy has been in the league a few years, why even bring up his draft position? Is he worth the deal he was offered, or wasn't he? Injuries have, in fact, been the issue with Chris Williams his whole career. That he managed to make every start his 2013 season for the Rams seemed to argue perhaps that was behind him. Keep in mind that apparently, Williams looked OK at guard with Sam Bradford under center and Steven Jackson as RB and shaky behind Kellen Clemens and Zac Stacy as RB in 2013. it's widely known that changing the QB and RB from a more decisive model to a less decisive one can automagically make the OL look worse and vice-versa. He didn't work out for the Bills, so in hindsight it's easy to say he was crap, but how did he look at the time? It's also pretty clear that Marrone had very specific ideas of what he wanted his guards to look like - big, prototype-tackle type guys like Pears. Williams fits that model. Levitre and Urbik don't. Since you're interested in discussion, can you explain what available guards fit the Marrone prototype, that you think Whaley should have signed instead? A big part of your "discussion" about Whaley seems to hinge on signing guys who didn't see the field. At this point, I don't think it's even possible to evaluate the quality of some players based upon whether or not Marrone would play them (eg, Bryce Brown, Caveman Mike Williams). Was he delivering guys to Marrone that seem to fit the prototype Marrone seems to have wanted and that had demonstrated NFL quality? Yes, yes he did. Brown was demonstrated capable of grinding out yards between the tackles with the Eagles. Mike Williams was demonstrated to be a big Red Zone target in the NFL. It's a fact that our run game was far less productive with the same two backs and many of the same OLmen under Marrone. Is that on Whaley, or is that on Marrone not getting the most out of proven NFL-quality players? Was the Watkins trade a bad move, giving up too much? Maybe. Who wanted it? We don't know. For all you know, Marrone was sitting in the War Room salivating over Watkins and insisting that all EJ needed was an AJ-Green type wideout, git 'er done Doug. Who do you think Whaley should have gone for instead? Edit: Yeah, I've read the anonymous stuff saying Marrone was upset by the trade-up for Watkins. If you feel OBD is in CYA mode, what do you think of Marrone? I think there's revisionist history and CYA all around at this point. It's pretty clear to me that Whaley has done a great deal in 1 year of making serious efforts to upgrade the talent on this team. Others have pointed out some of the players he's brought in who are pretty clear quality so I won't recap. I would say it's on you: if you want a discussion, discuss some of these points, just don't wave your hands around and shout the same refrain. Cheers! Bottom line: Edited January 4, 2015 by Hopeful
gregkash Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 "he wanted to force EJ on Marrone" He should have, shouldn't he? In retrospect with hindsight being 20/20, we didnt make the playoffs and Kyle Orton retired and we have no idea how EJ progressed going into ANOTHER year.
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Which is more likely: Marrone and Whaley watch film together on the FA OL prospects and the top 20 or so OL draft prospects, and Marrone gives his opinions on the strengths and weaknesses of those players, which Whaley takes into consideration although makes the final decisions himself (along with Overdorf negotiating contracts with FA which may have played a part)... which Marrone himself has said they do... OR... Marrone has no interest or say in who we're signing on the OL in FA and the draft and Whaley doesn't have any interest in what Marrone says about these OL he is signing and drafting and just takes whoever he likes. Got it. Marrone's made suggestions on who he wanted for the line and if Whaley listened to him then he bears no responsibility for missing in FA or draft picks. Do you guys actually read what you post? This is a real eye opener though. I was actually very complimentary of Whaley and said I want him to have this year to prove himself. I also stated obvious legitimate criticisms of Whaley's tenure that anyone can see, but that was too much for the homers to handle. According to them Whaley has done nothing wrong and bears no responsibility for the personnel on the offensive line. It is seriously a pathetic display.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I am done arguing about this. Whaley is the GM. His has done a terrible job at getting quality offensive lineman. That is his job, that is on him. Pretend all you want that we have an all-star cast on the line and it was all Marrone's fault, I don't care. There is no point in debating with someone who is such a homer that he feels that the our crappy offensive line has nothing to do with Whaley. You're done making ridiculous arguments that counter your own points you mean? I'm not a blind homer, no matter how much you want to paint me as that. If you've read any of my posts over the past decade and change that I've been around, you'd know that to be true. What I am is a Bills fan -- who wants to see them get better. Whaley has been the first GM in over a decade to bring the team even close to competence. That's not being a homer, that's just a fact. The roster is light years better than it has been in that time, but of course there are still holes to fill. Do you really have to be reminded how terrible this roster was when Whaley was brought in as an asst GM? Names like Ellison, Edwards, and Lossman still keep me up at night. Maybe you need to revisit those rosters and then compare them to what Doug's been doing. You'll feel better. Got it. Marrone's made suggestions on who he wanted for the line and if Whaley listened to him then he bears no responsibility for missing in FA or draft picks. Do you guys actually read what you post? Do you read what you post? In the same breath you claim Doug's been on the job for one year and then blame him for letting Levitre walk!
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Marrone wasn't his guy. Whisenhunt was. Marrone was Nix and Brandon's guy. Here is why we should keep him. In his first full season of being a GM, the Bills had problems all over the place. We had serious WR problems, TE, OL, both our RBs had been hurt and CJ in last year, QB, Lb, a little bit at CB, and special teams were a disaster. Whaley, who had come from the Steelers, had a plan. Stock a deep roster than is a mix of old and new, across the board, that is built to last not just load up for the present. You can't fix everything in one year, there were no QBs in FA worth signing. He signed Dixon and traded for Brown for RB creating a four headed monster. Dixon was for short yardage and toughness, brown was slasher and security for CJ if he left this year. He drafted watkins #1 who was a can't miss prospect, traded Stevie who was always hurt and didn't fit the offense Marrone wanted because he freelanced and EJ was going to be throwing the ball to spots. He traded for MWilliams setting up a four headed monster at WR too. A number 1, a possession guy in Woods, a speed demon in Goodwin, and a go up and get it redzone guy in Williams. They all had a role. He signed Chris Williams which was a shaky pick, and spent his #2, #5 and #7 picks on OL. We can argue if they were busts, if they were projects, if Marrone screwed them up. We were terrible against the run. He signed the best run stuffer in the league in Spikes, and drafted Preston Brown who played terrific for a #3 especially after kiko went down. He signed Rivers who was beaten out by Brown but a vet backup. We got killed the year before with Justin Rogers and the 4th cb. He signed Leodis to a contract and he signed Corey Graham to be the #3 as well as had picked up a great slot guy in Robey the year before. We were terrible on special teams. He signed two pro bowl ST players in Graham and Dixon who immediately changed that dynamic. And he signed the punter, as well as re-signed a FA he picked up last year, Dan Carpenter who is tremendous. If he didn't draft Sammy he was going to draft a TE number one, but he had already signed Moeaki who unfortunately, predictably got hurt again, but who is now making plays for the Seahawks. He let Byrd go so he could sign Aaron Williams. Byrd was a huge flame out, williams is solid and a bargain. He signed branch and Charles. Branch didn't try and got in the Doug house so they cut him. But the DL was solid anyway all year. Whaley has built a solid team. Excellent points all and a good read. I'm curious how you know Marrone wasn't Whaley's guy and that Whaley wanted Whisenhunt? I know Brandon became Bills President on Jan 1 2013. Was Wilson still involved in the HC search which culminated in signing Marrone on Jan 6 2013? Did he still have to sign off?
Kelly the Dog Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Got it. Marrone's made suggestions on who he wanted for the line and if Whaley listened to him then he bears no responsibility for missing in FA or draft picks. Do you guys actually read what you post? This is a real eye opener though. I was actually very complimentary of Whaley and said I want him to have this year to prove himself. I also stated obvious legitimate criticisms of Whaley's tenure that anyone can see, but that was too much for the homers to handle. According to them Whaley has done nothing wrong and bears no responsibility for the personnel on the offensive line. It is seriously a pathetic display. Where the fukk do you get that Whaley has no responsibility out of that?! I didn't say or imply that in any way. You said you're done with this. Please do what you say.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Where the fukk do you get that Whaley has no responsibility out of that?! I didn't say or imply that in any way. You said you're done with this. Please do what you say. :lol:
The Wiz Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Let's get this straight... it's Whaley's first year according to you, but it was his decision to let Levitre walk? How does that work? Not to mention levitre left in March and Whaley wasn't promoted until may. But that's a credit to nix in this case foreseeing his future downward spiral.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I see this a lot but who did you want that was available. The choices were McCown who only wanted to start, and the Buc promised him the job, and Mike Vick. I believe Moore and Cassell were FA who quickly re-signed with their own teams. Orton wasn't available until we signed him. Reports were the Bills were negotiating with Orton as soon as the Cowboys let him go but couldn't come to terms until just before the season
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 You're done making ridiculous arguments that counter your own points you mean? I'm not a blind homer, no matter how much you want to paint me as that. If you've read any of my posts over the past decade and change that I've been around, you'd know that to be true. What I am is a Bills fan -- who wants to see them get better. Whaley has been the first GM in over a decade to bring the team even close to competence. That's not being a homer, that's just a fact. The roster is light years better than it has been in that time, but of course there are still holes to fill. Do you really have to be reminded how terrible this roster was when Whaley was brought in as an asst GM? Names like Ellison, Edwards, and Lossman still keep me up at night. Maybe you need to revisit those rosters and then compare them to what Doug's been doing. You'll feel better. Do you read what you post? In the same breath you claim Doug's been on the job for one year and then blame him for letting Levitre walk! Clearly did not say that and if it came out that way it is nothing more than a grammatical error. For you to keep going back to this shows you have absolutely no points to defend your position. All you have basically said so far is Whaley deserves no criticism for the offensive line and anything bad with the Bills. Yet deserves praise for all the good things.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Reports were the Bills were negotiating with Orton as soon as the Cowboys let him go but couldn't come to terms until just before the season They were. But Orton was never going to sign until after the Thursday games the week before the season started. He wanted to see if a starter was going to be hurt so he could go to the best situation for him to play. As soon as those games were over and there were no starter jobs, he chose the Bills because they had the best situation for him to play: a shaky EJ in his second year after a bad preseason and no backup.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Clearly did not say that and if it came out that way it is nothing more than a grammatical error. For you to keep going back to this shows you have absolutely no points to defend your position. All you have basically said so far is Whaley deserves no criticism for the offensive line and anything bad with the Bills. Yet deserves praise for all the good things. You did say it that way -- clearly. You also inject inaccurate opinion's into other people's posts (like Kelly and my own). I only go back to what you said because it's what you said and, frankly, sums up why your opinion on this matter is so faulty.
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Clearly did not say that and if it came out that way it is nothing more than a grammatical error. For you to keep going back to this shows you have absolutely no points to defend your position. All you have basically said so far is Whaley deserves no criticism for the offensive line and anything bad with the Bills. Yet deserves praise for all the good things. As for being a homer? Yea when I make a very legit post about Whaley where I say I want him to remain GM but he needs to correct these 2 things and pointing out his very legitimate criticisms, and you act like I came on here and did some sort of a hatchet job on Whaley, yea you sound like a complete and total homer. Basically I made a very fair post about Whaley and you tried to make my opinion seem invalid because you are a total homer and I don't need to read your last ten years of posts. The position you are taking in this thread is basically Whaley has done no wrong and that is the definition of a homer.
thewildrabbit Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Good lord I can't stand not being able to see the quote outline. Dunno know if its a bug. All I know is its bugging me. Anyway, Doug Whaley needs to be 100% accountable for the the crap players he has brought in for the O line the last two years, and there is no question about that! "The front office has also bristled at how certain players are being used, sources said. Team executives believe tackle Cyrus Kouandjio, this year's second-round pick, warranted more of a long look this summer, were unhappy that emerging receiver Robert Woodswas benched at times, and they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on (the team explored trades for Urbik before roster cuts, league sources said)." http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24695455/buffalo-tension-boils-over-in-shouting-match-for-marrone-bills-officials
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 As for being a homer? Yea when I make a very legit post about Whaley where I say I want him to remain GM but he needs to correct these 2 things and pointing out his very legitimate criticisms, and you act like I came on here and did some sort of a hatchet job on Whaley, yea you sound like a complete and total homer. Basically I made a very fair post about Whaley and you tried to make my opinion seem invalid because you are a total homer and I don't need to read your last ten years of posts. The position you are taking in this thread is basically Whaley has done no wrong and that is the definition of a homer. That's in your head, brother. What I pounced on were your own faulty conclusions. And again, I never said (or even intimated) that Whaley has done no wrong. You can't get anything right, can you?
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I don't think he's really been on the job long enough to give an objective evaluation. He's had one off-season to date to put his mark on this team and the early returns are very mixed so far. Pegula should be monitoring things closely. The rapid dysfunction between Marrone and Whaley suggests potential problems. One of them is gone, but there are two sides to any conflict.
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