A serious question, why the faith in Whaley?

[CSBill]

 

 

 

 

Yea laugh it up. I must be an idiot and have no idea what I am talking about so you can just make a quick one sentence statement and laugh me off instead of arguing your own valid points which it appears you have none of.

 

I am not going to defend Marrone's coaching because he wasn't good but to completely absolve Whaley from any responsibility for the offensive line is what is truly laughable. It is a position that only a complete homer would take. I would appreciate it next time if you actually post something that makes me think critically about my stance and maybe can change my mind a bit instead of saying pretty much nothing and just making an insulting laughing icon so you don't actually have to defend you position at all. It is weak as !@#$ and you credibility doing it. I think my position is completely reasonable and anyone who read my post with an open mind and isn't a giant homer would see that and see that I am being more than reasonable with my respect to Whaley.

 

As for Kelly's question, I must have missed it. What was it?

 

I guess what you missed, is that he did address it four different ways. Now, three of those four did not work out, but he certainly went after it. I would say, if there is blame for this, I point to two areas: 1) Whomever on your scouting staff is evaluating o-line talent, because this was a great year for top quality linemen in the draft, and the Bills whiffed on not just one, but two draft picks. And the FA signed had many many questions marks. They must have convinced Whaley that he still had something, but that was bad advise. 2) Coaching. The exCoach who put so much time into the o-line really was not that good at o-line coaching at all—that is one problem partly solved.

 

Yes, Whaley must own some of this, but if he has a flaw, it may be trusting too much in those who are supposed to know what they're doing. Here's hoping he can fix those problems, because in the long run, those will be more important to his success than everything else.

[OldNMBillsFan]

I believe that the root cause of the Bills failures is not so much just the QB position, but all positions. Name me one Bills receiver that has left the Bills and been successful. Stevie, some say the Bills best receiver since Moulds is a true #2 or 3, as evident by his play in SF. Evens, our #1 receiver until he was replaced by Stevie, couldn't even make the NFL the second year after he left the Bills. They drafted Maybin with the 11th pick. James Hardy at the 41 pick. How many starts did we get from these two fine draft picks? It is too early to know how things will turn out with Whaley, however IMO, the last 2 drafts have produced more productive players than in the past. Isn't it ironic that Woods was selected #41 same as Hardy. He will have some misses but lets give the man at least 5 years before we crucify him too.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

It was written that Marrone was Brandon guy and there was a 2-1 vote with Whaley being the 1 vote against. I never heard Whisenhunt thought. Although I don't doubt it

 

Thanks. I had missed that. Who was the 3rd guy voting?

[The Wiz]

 

Thanks. I had missed that. Who was the 3rd guy voting?

I'd assume nix.

[John from Riverside]

 

I guess what you missed, is that he did address it four different ways. Now, three of those four did not work out, but he certainly went after it. I would say, if there is blame for this, I point to two areas: 1) Whomever on your scouting staff is evaluating o-line talent, because this was a great year for top quality linemen in the draft, and the Bills whiffed on not just one, but two draft picks. And the FA signed had many many questions marks. They must have convinced Whaley that he still had something, but that was bad advise. 2) Coaching. The exCoach who put so much time into the o-line really was not that good at o-line coaching at all—that is one problem partly solved.

 

Yes, Whaley must own some of this, but if he has a flaw, it may be trusting too much in those who are supposed to know what they're doing. Here's hoping he can fix those problems, because in the long run, those will be more important to his success than everything else.

 

 

This is a good post.

 

I feel that the whiff on Kujo (if he is in fact a whiff) REALLY hurts the team because I feel that he would have been a big part of this offense........

 

Then at the end of the season you didnt get a committment from Marrone that Kujo was actually moving to OG....which is troubling.

 

Missing on a 2nd round pick really hurts. THis is not to say he has not done a pretty solid job overall....but missing on 2nd round picks hurt.

[KRT88]

Yea his draft picks are horrible. I see you convienantly ignore players thag don't fit your agenda.

 

Let's see:

Kiko Alonso

Preston Brown

Jerry Hughes

Boobie Dixon

Sentreal Henderson

Sammy Watkins

Robert Woods

 

All players Doug Whaley brought here. And he's added even more loads more of depth. But I'm not going to waste my time.

 

I'm not even sure why I'm responding to this thread.

but he didn't hit a home run with EVERY pick

 

seriously the bad 2nd round pick doesn't help him nor does the lame offensive line he put together.

 

However, we are all ready an A$$clown organization, why change coaches and GM's yet again? Make no sense.

[Lurker]

 

 

 

Then at the end of the season you didnt get a committment from Marrone that Kujo was actually moving to OG....which is troubling.

 

Missing on a 2nd round pick really hurts. THis is not to say he has not done a pretty solid job overall....but missing on 2nd round picks hurt.

 

And yet, Marrone loved the pick and thought highly of Cyrus after the draft...

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Doug-Marrone-All-I-care-about-is-what-you%E2%80%99re-going-to-do-now/7a113c7a-740e-4410-808e-a845a98e6ffb

[Ronin]

 

I can go on but you are getting the point. So far to me he looks like he has do damn idea what he is doing.

He doesn't. It just takes some people longer than others to figure this out. Unfortunately, some of those others are in key roles on the team, including Whaley, who's in a fox guarding the henhouse position right now in an enormous conflict of interests.

 

I was hoping for a change in the organization resulting in competence. I didn't realize that we would go from a 3-ring circus to a 5-ring circus in a "new and improved" circus.

 

Honestly, you can't make half the **** that's happening to this organization up.

[The Wiz]

He doesn't. It just takes some people longer than others to figure this out. Unfortunately, some of those others are in key roles on the team, including Whaley, who's in a fox guarding the henhouse position right now in an enormous conflict of interests.

 

I was hoping for a change in the organization resulting in competence. I didn't realize that we would go from a 3-ring circus to a 5-ring circus in a "new and improved" circus.

 

Honestly, you can't make half the **** that's happening to this organization up.

It also takes people longer to read the entire thread rather than just backing up the OP but that's a lot to ask.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Good stuff here. When all else fails please fall back on, well who did you want him to take. So pathetic. The toxic response I got while saying Whaley should be back but saying he needs to take responsibility for his mistakes as well is pretty telling. Either some of you are such giant homers that you have to attack anyone showing any criticism whatsoever towards Whaley or he has made no mistakes.

 

Pretty good strawmen and ad homina there with the "giant homers" and the false dichotomy about "attack anyone showing any criticism of Whaley or he has made no mistakes.

 

No GM hits a homer every time he swings, and everyone can be criticized.

 

The point you fail to address is that FA signings and draft choices aren't made in a vacuum. They're made in the context of

-what type of player was being sought (big tackle-size guard? smaller, nimble run blocker?)

-who else was available AT THAT TIME?

 

The point is, Whaley made 4 attempts to improve the OL: a FA signing, and 3 draft choices. In retrospect, Chris Williams was a whiff. But was it a blameworthy, bonehead move, or a legitimate attempt to address a known need with the best FA "fit" available AT THAT TIME? I don't know. That's why I'm asking. Context matters.

 

There are some moves that seem inexplicable and are legitimately hard to defend. Examples might be drafting TJ Graham in the 3rd round in 2012 after Fitzpatrick had collapsed in the last half of the 2011 season while Wilson and Foles were still on the board.

 

Chris Williams was a bust as a 1st round tackle draftee, and struggled with injury. He was servicable enough as a guard in St Louis protecting Bradford and opening holes for Steven Jackson that they offered him another year. The following year with Clemens and a no-name back, he didn't look so good. I can understand why B'lo scouts might have thought he was worth a shot, what I don't know is who else (that fit Marrone's "I want big hulking guards" mode) was available. If better big hulking guards were available, it's a suck move, criticize away. If no one better was available, it was a "best of a bad lot" attempt to serve the team.

 

The same thing is true of QB. The FA pickings have been very slim. If a better choice than Orton was available, then it was a mistake not to sign him. If no one was available, it was the best of a bad lot attempt to serve the team.

 

Because context matters, and all the ad hominems and insults you chuck out about "pathetic" and "toxic" don't change that fundamental fact.

I'd assume nix.

 

OK, yeah, he was still in the mix through the draft, I'd forgotten that. Thanks.

 

And yet, Marrone loved the pick and thought highly of Cyrus after the draft...

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Doug-Marrone-All-I-care-about-is-what-you%E2%80%99re-going-to-do-now/7a113c7a-740e-4410-808e-a845a98e6ffb

"All three of these kids (context: OL draftees) are impressive from what they can do"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Given that Pegula was hoping to bring Polian in, I'd say he isn't terribly happy with Whaley. The way things worked out, whether he likes him or not, Pegula might be stuck with Whaley for now. From Whaley's point of view, the team tried to bring in an older, more experienced GM who also happens to be on his way to the hall of fame so he has to be aware that he is on borrowed time.

 

?If you mean Polian as the "older more experienced GM", no way was Polian ever considering anything like an NFL GM position at his age and experience.

Did you mean AJ Smith? But why would he be HoF material?

[birdog1960]

 

 

 

People are blaming them to fit data to the outcome they hope to see. If a player is a failure, it is better to assume that it was Nix who screwed the soup, because Nix has left the building. The phenomena is a board constant. Every time someone is fired (or leaves), all the recent garbage on the field is shoveled into a brown paper bag, placed on the guy's doormat, set on fire, and the doorbell rung.

 

Edit: And like you say, the converse is also true. Some may place all the blame on the guy still in the building.

 

The sticky part is that for some, saying there are group decisions involved is totally unacceptable. Saying X had anything more than 0% to do with bad decision Y is simply unfathomable.

this is what i see as well. most of the same folks defending whaley here also defended the old guard and may still be now despite their pettiness, incompetence and self serving nature recently coming clearly into focus.

[TSOL]

 

 

We are never going to agree on this. The Bills have sucked for 15 years. During that time the one truth is we have had **** at QB. If an owner was GM were forward thinking enough to know that it doesn't matter until you get a QB and had the balls to do this I think it would work.

 

 

 

If I were an NFL GM taking over a team with a bad QB situation I would need my owner to understand that we might be really bad for 2 or 3 years. Right now you pretty much have to luck into getting a great QB. So is there any way to make your luck better? Yes, draft more of them. This would be my strategy:

 

Draft a QB on day one or two every year until you find your guy. Of course you want to draft for value so this doesn't mean you are going with a QB in the first round every year. Get the best value on a QB in the first 3 rounds every year. Also if there is a guy in round 1 that you absolutely believe then you can obviously overpay and give up some value. I would also draft one project QB in rounds 4-7 every year.

 

Next, I am never drafting for need during the time I am trying to find a QB. I am always taking the best player available and also always trading down when the value is there, trying to accumulate as many picks as possible over the years.

 

So you are taking shots at QB's and adding picks to coincide with the finding of the QB.

 

It would be radically different from what GM's do now but I think this is a great long term strategy to finding a great QB and setting yourself up for 10-15 years window. You may struggle at first but it would be worth it in the end.

 

 

 

 

You know who shares this QB drafting stragty with you, right?

[TPS]

To me the debate makes no sense either way. I say both nix and Whaley are responsible for drafting EJ, and that's fine with me.

 

The team had no possible franchise QB on the roster, and there wasn't one available in FA or via trade, so they HAD to draft someone.

 

They took a shot with EJ based on his being (in their opinion) the most talented guy in the class. So far it hasn't worked out--not sure what else they could've done.

yes, they did exactly what the anti-whaley crowd demands, drafted a QB with their R1 pick.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

but he didn't hit a home run with EVERY pick

 

seriously the bad 2nd round pick doesn't help him nor does the lame offensive line he put together.

 

However, we are all ready an A$$clown organization, why change coaches and GM's yet again? Make no sense.

First of all, what we know about Kouandjio is 1) he didn't play this year 2) reportedly, there was tension between Marrone and someone unidentified in the FO who felt Kouandjio should have had more of a look in pre-season. Given what's come out about Marrone having a "Doug House", I think we have to wait and see on Kouandjio.

 

Second please realize that the "lame offensive line" he put together includes 4 of the 5 players who made us a top-half offense under Gailey. Perhaps what's lame about the offensive line, had to do with how they were being used including the positions they were asked to play, and not with Whaley?

[thewildrabbit]

I think what so many Bills fans fail to see is that trade for Watkins with two #1's and a #4 was basically unprecedented for a non QB, especially when the team didn't already have a rock solid franchise QB. Then they could have stayed put at #9 and gotten Odell Beckham Jr who missed the first four games and then came withing a few yards of breaking Randy Moss's rookie yardage record.

 

Looking at what ESPN reported that if Bill Polian had taken the job as team president he had ear marked ex GM of the Chargers AJ Smith as his GM. Many other teams look at that trade as a very high risk, low reward gamble that didn't pay off for Buffalo.

 

What bothers me most about the trade or i should say if they hadn't made the trade for Sammy it has been announced that the #1 pick at 9 would have been Eric Ebron, and the #2 pick for Cyrus Koundjio. This, plus the fact they overlooked Beckham, and even Kelvin Benjamin tells me the Bills have some serious issues with their offensive scouting abilities. This seriously needs to be addressed this off season.

[Sisyphean Bills]

To me the debate makes no sense either way. I say both nix and Whaley are responsible for drafting EJ, and that's fine with me.

 

The team had no possible franchise QB on the roster, and there wasn't one available in FA or via trade, so they HAD to draft someone.

 

They took a shot with EJ based on his being (in their opinion) the most talented guy in the class. So far it hasn't worked out--not sure what else they could've done.

 

The problem with this is that they already had two veteran care-taker QBs under contract. They have only themselves to blame for forcing themselves into a "we have to roll the dice" situation.

 

Also, the "he refused to renegotiate" line is regurgitating the official company line. If they were that hard up, why turn right around and flush cap money straight down the toilet on the brittle and damaged Kevin "TKO'd by a Rubber Mat" Kolb? They were well under the cap before and after cutting Fitzpatrick. In a way, it was purely a marketing move to dump him and replace him with a first-round pick. It was exactly what people were publicly suggesting was the solution.

[thebandit27]

 

The problem with this is that they already had two veteran care-taker QBs under contract. They have only themselves to blame for forcing themselves into a "we have to roll the dice" situation.

 

Also, the "he refused to renegotiate" line is regurgitating the official company line. If they were that hard up, why turn right around and flush cap money straight down the toilet on the brittle and damaged Kevin "TKO'd by a Rubber Mat" Kolb? They were well under the cap before and after cutting Fitzpatrick. In a way, it was purely a marketing move to dump him and replace him with a first-round pick. It was exactly what people were publicly suggesting was the solution.

Caretakers do not equal "franchise" QBs. They weren't going anywhere with Fitz, Jackson, or Kolb--they needed a guy with franchise potential. Every team needs one, and if you don't have one, getting one should be a priority. How they managed the other aspects of the position group is an entirely different matter IMO.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

The problem with this is that they already had two veteran care-taker QBs under contract. They have only themselves to blame for forcing themselves into a "we have to roll the dice" situation.

 

Also, the "he refused to renegotiate" line is regurgitating the official company line. If they were that hard up, why turn right around and flush cap money straight down the toilet on the brittle and damaged Kevin "TKO'd by a Rubber Mat" Kolb? They were well under the cap before and after cutting Fitzpatrick. In a way, it was purely a marketing move to dump him and replace him with a first-round pick. It was exactly what people were publicly suggesting was the solution.

This is a thoughtful and interesting post. Fitz' public word on the situation is that the Bills made him an offer, he countered, and there it sat - no real attempt to negotiate. It's clear being potentially cast as a backup wasn't a deal-breaker for Fitz or he wouldn't have gone to the Titans.

 

It's clear that Nix/Gailey/Brandon/whoever painted themselves into a corner. Most teams, even teams with proven starters, will draft developmental QB. The Pats, with Brady firmly enscounced, used a 4th on Mallet in 2011 and a 2nd on Garopollo last year. Washington drafted RGIII and Foles the same year. GB has drafted 4 QB since they drafted Rodgers, going as high as the 2nd round. Seattle opened the piggy bank to acquire Flynn from Green Bay when they had servicable Tarvaris Jackson who had played like a trump with a torn pec for them, then drafted Wilson when he fell to the 4th. The point is, good teams will spend a pick on a QB if there is a value player available.

 

With Fitzpatrick as the best option at QB, the Bills risked a 7th round pick on Levi Brown and that's it until EJ Manual, despite the fact that some well-regarded QB prospects fell a bit and were available when they drafted in the 3rd or 4th round a couple of those years. We act as though bringing a developmental prospect into the building is a terrible risk likely to cause team Staph infections contagious hangnails and cardiac arrhythmias.

 

I have no quarrel with the Bills drafting Manual. I even have no quarrel with the Bills drafting Watkins - if they honestly thought he was The Truth, go for him. I do think the Bills scouting department needs overhaul, but it does seem clear that the OLmen they looked at were cast in a specific physical mold desired by Marrone - big hulking tackle-type guards.

 

It seems pretty clear though, that the Bills need a change in philosphy where drafting a QB is concerned. They need to be on the watch, every year, for a high-value QB who drops a bit. Stop acting like a QB is Highlander "There can be only One" in the building at the same time. They need to do this even if Manuel, or their next draftee, develops into Magical Franchilse Man.

 

I am also concerned that shared responsibility = lack of accountability. Whaley can say "everyone in the room signed off on Manuel" or "everyone was in favor of drafting Watkins" and it blurrs the lines of accountability for just what was given up and just what was the overarching QB plan. I personally incline that Brandon is still mixing it in on some football decisions, especially the Draft, and that his football evaluations are heavily influenced by his marketing background "whoo hoo, we'll make an attention grabbing trade that only a team one player away from a championship would make, that'll stir up interest and sell tickets! Yeah!" I never thought that until I watched the 2014 Draft Day video linked in another thread and saw how giddy Brandon was after the trade-up. In that light, the trade-up appears as one in a long line of decisions with questionable added football value and strong PR value (signing TO, bringing in Vince Young, etc).

 

I hope the Pegulas clean FO house. I think Whaley has promise as a young GM, but he's definitely been here for some of the problems so if the Pegulas decide he has to go because they can't sort out to what degree he was part of them, I'm chill with that too. I don't trust Brandon an inch.

[reddogblitz]

Marrone wasn't his guy. Whisenhunt was. Marrone was Nix and Brandon's guy.

 

How do you know this?