Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Our 2nd round pick was viewed by many in the draft as a late 1st round pick. Again I'll ask the question. Was a guy (with a background as a former O-lineman) fail to develop the talent he was provided or did he not see that he/they were not as reported? If it's the first, then that is not the GMs problem, that's a coaching issue. If it's the second, then many more people than the GM was fooled AND then so too was the coach for not informing his boss that CK was destined to be a bust. Yea it can't possibly be that Whaley wiffed on the pick. Has to be Marrone's fault.
T master Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Now before answering and before reading this please understand how I am saying this. I am not trying to be a jerk, I am not being sarcastic, I am not bashing I am just trying to wrap my head around why so many think Whaley should still be GM and why the faith in him. I know in print its hard to see how someone is coming across so just imagine we are sitting around having a couple beers, wings and just discussing this. So in looking at Whaley here is what I see so far, he was in on the decision to draft EJ and hire Marrone, two horrible decisions. Now how much decision making did he have in those two decisions? Who knows? What I have read is it SEEMS (again just by what has been said/ printed) Whaley and Bradon wanted to force EJ on Marrone, and it is beyond proven and obvious Marrone and Whaley had issues regardless of what OBD says. Speaking of OBD can we finally agree no matter what its CYA there please? They will tell you that there is nothing to see here, all reports are wrong even if someone had video of it happening. Moving on, here is what I have seen of Whaley in his first year as GM... He signs a FA Guard with tons of ??? on him at Guard and the guy ends up being crap and not playing. Now some will say injuries, but this guy had issues at his last two places and didn't warrant his draft placing. He trades for a WR who hasn't produced since his rookie year, has attitude issues, already has a bad history with our HC And is now on "IR" (wink wink) and we are on the hook cap wise for 5 Mil + next year. He puts his faith in a QB that never should have been drafted in the first round (Was part of that decision), had many knocks against him and all the experts questioned why we took him in the 1st let alone to build this franchise around. He trades away our 1st and 4th this year for a WR who's talent he believes is so clear cut better than anywone else in the Draft that its worth the pick. he also thinks this is the one piece to finally get us over the hump....a rookie WR... Trades a 4th rounder for a RB we never hardly used. I can go on but you are getting the point. So far to me he looks like he has do damn idea what he is doing. Even in Pittsburgh they figured out how the NFL changed and its all about the QB. Now a franchise QB doesn't guarantee you get into the playoffs, but without one you pretty much are screwed. As for as building the Pittsburgh Model they have a Franchise QB, they have ONE RB that carries most of the load with others to back them up. So this building a Pittsburgh model to me is pure nonsense. So just looking at the guy's track record along with no ownership, no "I made that call", "I made that decision" it really bothers me. I just can't have faith in this guy and I can't see how so many are just so happy he is still the GM and have faith in him, So if you all don't mind can we discuss this? All of those decisions about EJ , bringing in the guard could be Marrone insisting on bringing these guys in , & seeing as his offense sucked I'm thinking that would be more the case than laying it entirely at the feet of Whaley , plus there was more influence from Buddy while there to draft a QB i would think ... Last years draft was totally Whaley he may have had in put before but it was trumped by either Brandon (which should not in any way be involved in football decisions !) or Buddy prior to . There is way to many unknowns before Whaley was GM from that point on it's all him .
yungmack Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) No, this is not a serious question; this is a piece of pure troll bait. Edited January 4, 2015 by yungmack
bmur66 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I think he has done well for a bright eyed young guy. He does need someone hardened by old age and treachery above him. Brandon should not be that guy. Now Mr. P is filling that role until he finds someone he is comfortable with paying to do it for him. The fringe players will be gone once Mr. P gets his ducks in row. Brandon may stay in a business capacity. Whaley will probably stay if Mr. P likes him. It seems to me that Marrone and Whaley had a disconnect. Maybe a personality clash. It's too bad because although he may have been a dick, I think Marrone did change the culture of the team. Sometimes some body needs to be an a hole. Sometime people perform better when the are mad. It can take some to the next level i.e. Jerry Hughes, Robert Woods. I think Marrone needs an enemy. Unfortunately I think it was Whaley. Do your job Dougie and get us a good Coach and somehow make The Schwarz happy to stay put.
Rico Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I think he has done well for a bright eyed young guy. He does need someone hardened by old age and treachery above him. Brandon should not be that guy. Now Mr. P is filling that role until he finds someone he is comfortable with paying to do it for him. The fringe players will be gone once Mr. P gets his ducks in row. Brandon may stay in a business capacity. Whaley will probably stay if Mr. P likes him. It seems to me that Marrone and Whaley had a disconnect. Maybe a personality clash. It's too bad because although he may have been a dick, I think Marrone did change the culture of the team. Sometimes some body needs to be an a hole. Sometime people perform better when the are mad. It can take some to the next level i.e. Jerry Hughes, Robert Woods. I think Marrone needs an enemy. Unfortunately I think it was Whaley. Do your job Dougie and get us a good Coach and somehow make The Schwarz happy to stay put. Agreed. He needs to have a great off-season this year though to truly lock down the job.
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) I can't add much to Kelly the Dog's post on page 1 - that pretty much sums up how I feel. It is true that the Quarterback position needs to be addressed. But if you accept that Nix was in charge for the drafting of Woods and Alonso but that EJ was a consensus decision (which I think is your position and is not an unreasonable one) then you accept that Nix was for the most part in charge of that off-season. So Alex Smith is out. Which brings me back to the point that was made elsewhere on this board a couple of weeks ago - Since Whaley became GM what better options at Quarterback were out there? EDIT: And just in addition to the list of higher profile free agents are the Carpenter, Schmidt, Charles and Wynn type pick ups. Edited January 4, 2015 by GunnerBill
Reed83HOF Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Agreed. He needs to have a great off-season this year though to truly lock down the job. Without a doubt
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I see this a lot but who did you want that was available. The choices were McCown who only wanted to start, and the Buc promised him the job, and Mike Vick. I believe Moore and Cassell were FA who quickly re-signed with their own teams. Orton wasn't available until we signed him. It is more about the fact that he did not draft a QB in the last draft, and please don't come with "who did you want him to draft." Listen there are a lot of things I like about Whaley and I think he has done a fair job. That said under his watch the offensive line has gotten much worse and he traded up for a WR, giving up a future first, in a great WR draft, with no established QB in place. That is bad asset management. With all that said, I think Nix who was a terrible GM, put Whaley in a really bad position with the QB. Nix said QB was his #1 priority, yet he ignored the position for 3 straight drafts (good QB drafts at that), then backed himself into a corner and reached on a guy, in a bad QB draft when he already had one foot out the door. Considering everything that is happened, I am going to look at this like year one for Whaley and there are a couple of things he needs to do to prove himself. First go out and sign the best free agent offensive lineman you possibly can. Don't be cheap and go moneyball with a Chris Williams like signing. That is like paying for a cheap appliance. Yea it may work for a little bit but in the long run you are going to pay a lot more. Our offensive line is straight up bad. Adding a middling free agent isn't going to be enough. Stop being cheap on the offensive line. Number two, draft a QB on day one or two this year and yes I realize we don't have a pick on day one and would have to trade up to do it. We could be the best defense in the league the next 3 years and if we don't have a legit QB, we will be lucky to sneak into the playoffs once. Those great defensive players come and go because we won't be able to resign them all. If you don't find a QB that great defense will be all for nothing. The Bills need to start drafting a QB or two every draft until we find one. If he doesn't realize this he doesn't belong in the league as a GM. Let's say the Bills are still looking for a QB in the 2016 draft. They are picking right around 20 in both the 1st and there are a couple prospects that they like. If I am GM and they are both there when I pick in the 1st, I take the one I like more. If the other one slips to my 2nd round pick, I take him too. If Whaley isn't thinking like this then I don't want him as my GM. Whaley failed miserably last off-season. I don't care who he signed or how many lineman he drafted, the line got significantly worse. He has to take criticism for that. He also was either too concerned about Manuel's feelings or just doesn't get it because he ignored the QB position in the draft. Either reason, it has got to stop. If Whaley shows me that he understands the importance of the QB position with his actions, then I will want him here. If he doesn't draft a QB early this year, I am done with him.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 It is more about the fact that he did not draft a QB in the last draft, and please don't come with "who did you want him to draft." Listen there are a lot of things I like about Whaley and I think he has done a fair job. That said under his watch the offensive line has gotten much worse and he traded up for a WR, giving up a future first, in a great WR draft, with no established QB in place. That is bad asset management. With all that said, I think Nix who was a terrible GM, put Whaley in a really bad position with the QB. Nix said QB was his #1 priority, yet he ignored the position for 3 straight drafts (good QB drafts at that), then backed himself into a corner and reached on a guy, in a bad QB draft when he already had one foot out the door. Considering everything that is happened, I am going to look at this like year one for Whaley and there are a couple of things he needs to do to prove himself. First go out and sign the best free agent offensive lineman you possibly can. Don't be cheap and go moneyball with a Chris Williams like signing. That is like paying for a cheap appliance. Yea it may work for a little bit but in the long run you are going to pay a lot more. Our offensive line is straight up bad. Adding a middling free agent isn't going to be enough. Stop being cheap on the offensive line. Number two, draft a QB on day one or two this year and yes I realize we don't have a pick on day one and would have to trade up to do it. We could be the best defense in the league the next 3 years and if we don't have a legit QB, we will be lucky to sneak into the playoffs once. Those great defensive players come and go because we won't be able to resign them all. If you don't find a QB that great defense will be all for nothing. The Bills need to start drafting a QB or two every draft until we find one. If he doesn't realize this he doesn't belong in the league as a GM. Let's say the Bills are still looking for a QB in the 2016 draft. They are picking right around 20 in both the 1st and there are a couple prospects that they like. If I am GM and they are both there when I pick in the 1st, I take the one I like more. If the other one slips to my 2nd round pick, I take him too. If Whaley isn't thinking like this then I don't want him as my GM. Whaley failed miserably last off-season. I don't care who he signed or how many lineman he drafted, the line got significantly worse. He has to take criticism for that. He also was either too concerned about Manuel's feelings or just doesn't get it because he ignored the QB position in the draft. Either reason, it has got to stop. If Whaley shows me that he understands the importance of the QB position with his actions, then I will want him here. If he doesn't draft a QB early this year, I am done with him. It's Whaley's fault the line regressed? Is he coaching now? You're getting the guy both ways -- while not answering Kelly's question.
die hard bills fan Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Don't forget Brandon Spikes, Corey Graham, Jairus Wynn, Nickell Robey...ah, you're right, just easier to leave poor-enough alone Exactly.
MattM Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) It is more about the fact that he did not draft a QB in the last draft, and please don't come with "who did you want him to draft." Listen there are a lot of things I like about Whaley and I think he has done a fair job. That said under his watch the offensive line has gotten much worse and he traded up for a WR, giving up a future first, in a great WR draft, with no established QB in place. That is bad asset management. With all that said, I think Nix who was a terrible GM, put Whaley in a really bad position with the QB. Nix said QB was his #1 priority, yet he ignored the position for 3 straight drafts (good QB drafts at that), then backed himself into a corner and reached on a guy, in a bad QB draft when he already had one foot out the door. Considering everything that is happened, I am going to look at this like year one for Whaley and there are a couple of things he needs to do to prove himself. First go out and sign the best free agent offensive lineman you possibly can. Don't be cheap and go moneyball with a Chris Williams like signing. That is like paying for a cheap appliance. Yea it may work for a little bit but in the long run you are going to pay a lot more. Our offensive line is straight up bad. Adding a middling free agent isn't going to be enough. Stop being cheap on the offensive line. Number two, draft a QB on day one or two this year and yes I realize we don't have a pick on day one and would have to trade up to do it. We could be the best defense in the league the next 3 years and if we don't have a legit QB, we will be lucky to sneak into the playoffs once. Those great defensive players come and go because we won't be able to resign them all. If you don't find a QB that great defense will be all for nothing. The Bills need to start drafting a QB or two every draft until we find one. If he doesn't realize this he doesn't belong in the league as a GM. Let's say the Bills are still looking for a QB in the 2016 draft. They are picking right around 20 in both the 1st and there are a couple prospects that they like. If I am GM and they are both there when I pick in the 1st, I take the one I like more. If the other one slips to my 2nd round pick, I take him too. If Whaley isn't thinking like this then I don't want him as my GM. Whaley failed miserably last off-season. I don't care who he signed or how many lineman he drafted, the line got significantly worse. He has to take criticism for that. He also was either too concerned about Manuel's feelings or just doesn't get it because he ignored the QB position in the draft. Either reason, it has got to stop. If Whaley shows me that he understands the importance of the QB position with his actions, then I will want him here. If he doesn't draft a QB early this year, I am done with him. How is it that the line got worse with largely the same personnel (which I agree it did)? Factors to my mind included: Marrone not starting Urbik, a serviceable player in prior years, until midway through the season Moving Pears from RT to RG--again, that was likely Marrone's call and not Whaley's Glenn missing TC with an injury Lack of continuity in TC, due to things like said injury C. Williams' injury--never really saw how he could perform, since he missed about 90% of the year Missing on Koundijo and (to a lesser extent) Richardson--somewhat made up for in Henderson, who has talent, but was only a rookie As you'll see, much of that was on Marrone or bad injury luck. As you also acknowledge, Whaley did try to address the OL in FA and the draft, so it's not like it was ignored or something. I swear, some people here seem to get a bug up their arse about something and close their eyes to all logic or counterpoints (witness the OP in this thread for a great example--I'd almost swear that one or both of EJ and Whaley slept with his wife.) Edited January 4, 2015 by MattM
GunnerBill Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 The Bills need to start drafting a QB or two every draft until we find one. If he doesn't realize this he doesn't belong in the league as a GM. Let's say the Bills are still looking for a QB in the 2016 draft. They are picking right around 20 in both the 1st and there are a couple prospects that they like. If I am GM and they are both there when I pick in the 1st, I take the one I like more. If the other one slips to my 2nd round pick, I take him too. If Whaley isn't thinking like this then I don't want him as my GM. I do understand that line of thinking however, given the CBA rules these days I'm just not sure you get the chance to truly develop 2 guys. I think you have to be more certain. My strategy is pick one in the 3rd or 4th this year as a bit of a flier and try and get a guy in FA to compete with EJ and hopefully beat him out to start. Then regardless of how that pans out you try and find a guy in the 1st round in 2016, trade up for him if necessary and trust your gut. I don't think you can properly develop 1 rookie these days if he is splitting too much time with another rookie in the off season.
Reed83HOF Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 You're getting the guy both ways Is that really an appropriate statement to make here.... Not that there is anything wrong with that... One a side not, you should check out the http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/174979-scathing-article-in-ny-daily-news-on-marrone/page-13 thread. Doug or his Agent joined TBD and posted LOL
purple haze Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Yea his draft picks are horrible. I see you convienantly ignore players thag don't fit your agenda. Let's see: Kiko Alonso Preston Brown Jerry Hughes Boobie Dixon Sentreal Henderson Sammy Watkins Robert Woods All players Doug Whaley brought here. And he's added even more loads more of depth. But I'm not going to waste my time. I'm not even sure why I'm responding to this thread. Corey Graham Brandon Spikes Colton Schmitt
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) It's Whaley's fault the line regressed? Is he coaching now? You're getting the guy both ways -- while not answering Kelly's question. Yea laugh it up. I must be an idiot and have no idea what I am talking about so you can just make a quick one sentence statement and laugh me off instead of arguing your own valid points which it appears you have none of. I am not going to defend Marrone's coaching because he wasn't good but to completely absolve Whaley from any responsibility for the offensive line is what is truly laughable. It is a position that only a complete homer would take. I would appreciate it next time if you actually post something that makes me think critically about my stance and maybe can change my mind a bit instead of saying pretty much nothing and just making an insulting laughing icon so you don't actually have to defend you position at all. It is weak as !@#$ and you credibility doing it. I think my position is completely reasonable and anyone who read my post with an open mind and isn't a giant homer would see that and see that I am being more than reasonable with my respect to Whaley. As for Kelly's question, I must have missed it. What was it? Edited January 4, 2015 by Proteus
Deranged Rhino Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Yea laugh it up. I must be an idiot and have no idea what I am talking about so you can just make a quick one sentence statement and laugh me off instead of arguing your own valid points which it appears you have none of. I am not going to defend Marrone's coaching because he wasn't good but to completely absolve Whaley from any responsibility for the offensive line is what is truly laughable. It is a position that only a complete homer would take. I would appreciate it next time if you actually post something that makes me think critically about my stance and maybe can change my mind a bit instead of saying pretty much nothing and just making an insulting laughing icon so you don't actually have to defend you position at all. It is weak as !@#$ and you credibility doing it. I think my position is completely reasonable and anyone who read my post with an open mind and isn't a giant homer would see that and see that I am being more than reasonable with my respect to Whaley. As for Kelly's question, I must have missed it. What was it? I have made my opinion clear in multiple threads prior to this -- and in this thread. Whaley has improved this roster ten fold since he took over, and despite the past week's events, this team's arrow is pointed up -- not down. That's largely due to Whaley's input. If you disagree, that's fine, but come at us with better examples than the OL which was Marrone's pet project. You can kill Whaley for trading up to get Sammy (I disagree and support that trade), you can kill him for not getting a QB (though it's easy to do when you're unwilling to state who you'd rather have taken given the same constraints Whaley faced), but you cannot argue this team isn't in a better position today than it was two seasons ago.
thewildrabbit Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 Like I've said in other threads. I think Whaley has done a near brilliant job with the defensive side of the ball, and there is no question about this. OTOH, Whaley has done an outright bad job with the offensive side of the ball the last two years. Two #1 picks, and a #4th for a position other then a QB when the team doesn't have a franchise QB is enough to get him fired by most team owners IMO. The Bills have thrown six players at the O line the last two years, and all but one have been bad players so far. That one decent player may or may not develop into a top starting player. Trading away Stevie Johnson because he didn't work well with EJ wasn't very smart considering the team would bench him after four games, and Orton could have used Stevie in the red zone IMO. Then trading for Mike Williams, Bryce Brown, and both were hardly utilized, and Williams is already gone. I know I no longer trust Whaley to do anything on the offensive side of the ball, and am hoping the team hires a president of football operations to oversee future offensive acquisitions. I'm also hoping that perhaps because they have been so bad at identifying O line talent that they hire specialist scouts for the offense.
Proteus Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 I have made my opinion clear in multiple threads prior to this -- and in this thread. Whaley has improved this roster ten fold since he took over, and despite the past week's events, this team's arrow is pointed up -- not down. That's largely due to Whaley's input. If you disagree, that's fine, but come at us with better examples than the OL which was Marrone's pet project. You can kill Whaley for trading up to get Sammy (I disagree and support that trade), you can kill him for not getting a QB (though it's easy to do when you're unwilling to state who you'd rather have taken given the same constraints Whaley faced), but you cannot argue this team isn't in a better position today than it was two seasons ago. Well like I said I am taking this as year one for Whaley and I will judge him on what his does from here. I am glad you have made your opinion on the offensive line known in multiple threads, but you did not in this one and I am not about to go reading your previous threads that pertain to the offensive line. If you want to criticize then you should be able to counter with your own argument within the thread. If you can't do that, then you lose credibility. The offensive line may be "Marrone's project" but simply making this statement shows how disingenuous you really are. Glenn and Wood are the only lineman that anyone would call quality starters. Whaley let Livitre walk and replaced him with Legursky and Brown. Two guys who don't belong in the league. Is that Marrone's fault? This year he went cheap and signed Chris Williams. He had one great block against the Bears before he got injured and that was pretty much it. It was a FA failure. He drafted a RT in the 2nd who may be out of the league in a year. Marrone's fault too? The personnel on the offensive line is well below average and if you want to pretend that Whaley, the GM has nothing to do with the personnel on the offensive line then you can go ahead and do that and keep laughing when anyone tells you different. Well like I said I am taking this as year one for Whaley and I will judge him on what his does from here. I am glad you have made your opinion on the offensive line known in multiple threads, but you did not in this one and I am not about to go reading your previous threads that pertain to the offensive line. If you want to criticize then you should be able to counter with your own argument within the thread. If you can't do that, then you lose credibility. The offensive line may be "Marrone's project" but simply making this statement shows how disingenuous you really are. Glenn and Wood are the only lineman that anyone would call quality starters. Whaley let Livitre walk and replaced him with Legursky and Brown. Two guys who don't belong in the league. Is that Marrone's fault? This year he went cheap and signed Chris Williams. He had one great block against the Bears before he got injured and that was pretty much it. It was a FA failure. He drafted a RT in the 2nd who may be out of the league in a year. Marrone's fault too? The personnel on the offensive line is well below average and if you want to pretend that Whaley, the GM has nothing to do with the personnel on the offensive line then you can go ahead and do that and keep laughing when anyone tells you different.
billsfan1959 Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Like I've said in other threads. I think Whaley has done a near brilliant job with the defensive side of the ball, and there is no question about this. OTOH, Whaley has done an outright bad job with the offensive side of the ball the last two years. Two #1 picks, and a #4th for a position other then a QB when the team doesn't have a franchise QB is enough to get him fired by most team owners IMO. The Bills have thrown six players at the O line the last two years, and all but one have been bad players so far. That one decent player may or may not develop into a top starting player. Trading away Stevie Johnson because he didn't work well with EJ wasn't very smart considering the team would bench him after four games, and Orton could have used Stevie in the red zone IMO. Then trading for Mike Williams, Bryce Brown, and both were hardly utilized, and Williams is already gone. I know I no longer trust Whaley to do anything on the offensive side of the ball, and am hoping the team hires a president of football operations to oversee future offensive acquisitions. I'm also hoping that perhaps because they have been so bad at identifying O line talent that they hire specialist scouts for the offense. Interesting that pretty much all the players Whaley has been involved in acquiring on the defensive side of the ball have been good and improving - while pretty much everyone on the offensive side of the ball have either been no good from the beginning or regressed over time. Do you think Whaley can be that good on one side of the ball and that bad on the other? Or might it have something to do with the quality of the coaching staff on the defensive side as opposed to that on the offensive side? I can't help but think of the overall jump in the play of defensive players under Pettine - compared to the results the previous coaching staff achieved with most of the same players... Edited January 4, 2015 by billsfan1959
Simon Says Posted January 4, 2015 Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Some lesser pickups were helpful ;P Scmidht, TE Gray, S Rambo, KR Thigpen. I would like to see Whaley work for at least one year.lead the transition..maintain some continuity, work his plan. With Brandon,Marrone,Nix, Littman,Overdorf,et.al out of his hair. Put the onus on Whaley so there are no questions about who made what moves.He has been adding pieces, and yes,swung and missed a coople times. (WR M.Williams,G Williams, LB Rivers etc). Now that we have Pegulas's money (assuming he will spend it, let Whaley go to work and get the Bills the best HC,a QB,and fix the O line. I dont think there is much left to do to ge this team into the playoffs. Keep Schwarz and the defensive coaches. Plus, we get Alonzo and Mckelvin back. Let Whaley,without distraction,disfunction and interfernece,run the show and see what happens. He might surprise us. Edited January 4, 2015 by Pablocruise
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