Billsfan1972 Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I look @ 50% completion rate and how while the targets each month ere the same the completion % decreased. This can all be blamed on Orton and the lousy play calling & routes. ODB caught 70% of passes thrown and became the focal point of the offense, while Sammy was just another receiver. People pointed to Sammy dropping some early in the season, but saw few later and almost no catchable balls downfield after a while. Either playing hurt or just incompetence by the OC.
mannc Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I look @ 50% completion rate and how while the targets each month ere the same the completion % decreased. This can all be blamed on Orton and the lousy play calling & routes. ODB caught 70% of passes thrown and became the focal point of the offense, while Sammy was just another receiver. People pointed to Sammy dropping some early in the season, but saw few later and almost no catchable balls downfield after a while. Either playing hurt or just incompetence by the OC. There is simply no end to the excuses, is there? Face the facts--Beckham was a much more dynamic receiver this year than Watkins. And what about Mike Evans? He he was catching pass from Mike Glennon and Josh McCown.
dave mcbride Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Yeah, that was pretty stark. Then again, I wonder how many soft zone defenses Eli was seeing because they were always playing from behind. Regardless, he got the ball to ODB when Orton struggled to get it to Sammy... Also, recall that for 25 percent of the season, Manuel was throwing those deeper balls, and he was horribly inaccurate.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 There is simply no end to the excuses, is there? Face the facts--Beckham was a much more dynamic receiver this year than Watkins. And what about Mike Evans? He he was catching pass from Mike Glennon and Josh McCown. Evans was the number 2 WR on his own team, meaning Jackson always drew the double and/or better defender, leaving Evans one on one with the number 2 or number 3 DB. The Bucs also played in a semi-pro division of the sport. Context is important.
mannc Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Evans was the number 2 WR on his own team, meaning Jackson always drew the double and/or better defender, leaving Evans one on one with the number 2 or number 3 DB. The Bucs also played in a semi-pro division of the sport. Context is important. You've said this before, but I very much doubt teams covered Evans with their number 2 or 3 corners, especially in the second half of the year. If they did, then they were foolish. This sounds like just another excuse rather than "context".
YoloinOhio Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 (edited) You've said this before, but I very much doubt teams covered Evans with their number 2 or 3 corners, especially in the second half of the year. If they did, then they were foolish. This sounds like just another excuse rather than "context". all the corners in the NFC south are all number 2-3 corners. Lol Edited January 6, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 You've said this before, but I very much doubt teams covered Evans with their number 2 or 3 corners, especially in the second half of the year. If they did, then they were foolish. This sounds like just another excuse rather than "context". http://espn.go.com/blog/tampa-bay-buccaneers/post/_/id/8323/season-in-review-wide-receivers Sounds like coverage was slanted to Jackson most of the year. Late in the year Evans got more attention, he didn't produce as much but it opened things for Jackson.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 You've said this before, but I very much doubt teams covered Evans with their number 2 or 3 corners, especially in the second half of the year. If they did, then they were foolish. This sounds like just another excuse rather than "context". Watch the games. Vincent Jackson is a better WR than Evans currently, that's not debatable and wasn't debated by opposing defenses who spent more time covering the better WR.
FireChan Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Watch the games. Vincent Jackson is a better WR than Evans currently, that's not debatable and wasn't debated by opposing defenses who spent more time covering the better WR. "I doubt something that I've never seen."
Deranged Rhino Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 "I doubt something that I've never seen." Truth.
mannc Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Watch the games. Vincent Jackson is a better WR than Evans currently, that's not debatable and wasn't debated by opposing defenses who spent more time covering the better WR. From the ESPN.com profile of Jackson: "The emergence of rookie wideout Mike Evans and natural regression considerably diminished the veteran wideout's season. Jackson reached the 1,000-yard mark and played in all 16 games for a fourth straight season, but he posted his worst numbers since arriving in Tampa. Despite his durability -- he has played in at least 15 games in seven of the last eight seasons -- the 31-year-old receiver has dealt with minor injuries, including a groin issue in Week 17, and continues to show signs of aging. A significant drop-off could reasonably be expected next season, but he is clearly the Bucs' No. 2 wideout entering 2015." Evans: more catches, 12 TD catches (vs. 2 for Jackson) and higher YPC than Jackson. You're right; it's not debatable. And sorry, I don't want to watch any Tampa Bay Bucs games. I have never said that Mike Evans or ODB will in the long run turn out to be better pros than Watkins, nor have I said Watkins is a bust or even a disappointment. All I have said is that based on the evidence so far Watkins' performance (especially when compared to other receivers drafted later) does not justify the trade, even though he had a very good rookie year. I have watched ODB quite a bit and from where I sit, he plays faster than Watkins, is a better runner after the catch and has better hands. Maybe that's because Sammy was playing through injuries this year; time will tell. The fact remains that at the time of the trade (and even before), many fans (including me) as well as experts criticized the Bills for trading up to get Watkins, for a variety of reasons. Most of all, it was the wrong trade at the wrong time for a team that was not one WR away from the Super Bowl. So far, those critics appear to have been correct and OBD (not to be confused with ODB) once again appears to have gotten it wrong. In fact, the Watkins trade reportedly is one of the reasons Whaley may be on shaky ground. Only on the Stadium Wall is the trade viewed as an unqualified success, and the tortured justifications for it just keep coming.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 From the ESPN.com profile of Jackson: "The emergence of rookie wideout Mike Evans and natural regression considerably diminished the veteran wideout's season. Jackson reached the 1,000-yard mark and played in all 16 games for a fourth straight season, but he posted his worst numbers since arriving in Tampa. Despite his durability -- he has played in at least 15 games in seven of the last eight seasons -- the 31-year-old receiver has dealt with minor injuries, including a groin issue in Week 17, and continues to show signs of aging. A significant drop-off could reasonably be expected next season, but he is clearly the Bucs' No. 2 wideout entering 2015." Evans: more catches, 12 TD catches (vs. 2 for Jackson) and higher YPC than Jackson. You're right; it's not debatable. And sorry, I don't want to watch any Tampa Bay Bucs games. I have never said that Mike Evans or ODB will in the long run turn out to be better pros than Watkins, nor have I said Watkins is a bust or even a disappointment. All I have said is that based on the evidence so far Watkins' performance (especially when compared to other receivers drafted later) does not justify the trade, even though he had a very good rookie year. I have watched ODB quite a bit and from where I sit, he plays faster than Watkins, is a better runner after the catch and has better hands. Maybe that's because Sammy was playing through injuries this year; time will tell. The fact remains that at the time of the trade (and even before), many fans (including me) as well as experts criticized the Bills for trading up to get Watkins, for a variety of reasons. Most of all, it was the wrong trade at the wrong time for a team that was not one WR away from the Super Bowl. So far, those critics appear to have been correct and OBD (not to be confused with ODB) once again appears to have gotten it wrong. In fact, the Watkins trade reportedly is one of the reasons Whaley may be on shaky ground. Only on the Stadium Wall is the trade viewed as an unqualified success, and the tortured justifications for it just keep coming. I get where you're coming from and I understand that there are plenty of folks who object to the trade -- especially in light of ODB's emergence and the depth of the position. Those are all valid positions / opinions to hold, so don't take my posts as trying to dissuade you from that. I don't happen to agree, but I fully understand the logic of where you're coming from. What I object to (in general, not so much with your posts) is the line of thinking that goes: "I don't like the trade, thus I must exaggerate or invent reasons why" -- which are the folks like JTSP who make ridiculous claims that Sammy "is never open / doesn't go up for balls / is the 4th or 5th best WR in the class". Or, in this case, that Evans was clearly better than Watkins when he wasn't even the best WR on his own team. I can't help you if you don't want to watch the film yourself, you're just going to have to trust me (or anyone else who actually did watch). Look at your first paragraph, Jackson had 1,000+ yards and Evans had 1,000+ yards... TWO WRs with over 1,000 and there wasn't one on the Bills entire roster. Doesn't that throw a bit of a hiccup into your argument that McCown and Glennon and Tampa's Offense was just as capable as the Bills? Yes, Jackson will be surpassed by Evans eventually as the number 1, but he wasn't this year. He played really, really well and consistently drew coverage away from Evans -- Sammy on the other hand had no help drawing coverage away and played far better defenses over the course of his 16 games than Evans did. The only WR who you can really say played better than Watkins (all things being equal, which they most certainly are not) is ODB. He was electric this year, and even if he did benefit from a better QB situation and an OC who made it a priority to get him the ball ODB played out of his mind in his rookie year. Yes, he got more targets, yes he had a better QB situation, but I won't deny that ODB played well. But it's one year. We'll see how it looks three years from now. From what I've seen of all these guys on film is Sammy is unquestionably the best talent in terms of measurable and performance on the field -- even though his numbers don't show it. I could be wrong, ODB might end up being able to consistently put up those kind of numbers (and I hope he does because he's fun to watch), but he's going to have to work even harder next year just to match it. Cruz will take targets away from him and defenses now have 12 games of film on the guy to start taking things away. I have no doubts about Sammy's work ethic, the guy is a grinder. I have a lot of doubts about ODB's... especially playing in such a distracting market like NYC.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I can't say I was 100% thrilled with the Watkins trade because of the price tag. But if it led to Marrone leaving, I love it. The fact that they couldn't get Watkins 1,000 yards is another knock against this staff. He is going to be a top 5 receiver in this league. Marrone will never be a top 5 coach.
mannc Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I get where you're coming from and I understand that there are plenty of folks who object to the trade -- especially in light of ODB's emergence and the depth of the position. Those are all valid positions / opinions to hold, so don't take my posts as trying to dissuade you from that. I don't happen to agree, but I fully understand the logic of where you're coming from. What I object to (in general, not so much with your posts) is the line of thinking that goes: "I don't like the trade, thus I must exaggerate or invent reasons why" -- which are the folks like JTSP who make ridiculous claims that Sammy "is never open / doesn't go up for balls / is the 4th or 5th best WR in the class". Or, in this case, that Evans was clearly better than Watkins when he wasn't even the best WR on his own team. I can't help you if you don't want to watch the film yourself, you're just going to have to trust me (or anyone else who actually did watch). Look at your first paragraph, Jackson had 1,000+ yards and Evans had 1,000+ yards... TWO WRs with over 1,000 and there wasn't one on the Bills entire roster. Doesn't that throw a bit of a hiccup into your argument that McCown and Glennon and Tampa's Offense was just as capable as the Bills? Yes, Jackson will be surpassed by Evans eventually as the number 1, but he wasn't this year. He played really, really well and consistently drew coverage away from Evans -- Sammy on the other hand had no help drawing coverage away and played far better defenses over the course of his 16 games than Evans did. The only WR who you can really say played better than Watkins (all things being equal, which they most certainly are not) is ODB. He was electric this year, and even if he did benefit from a better QB situation and an OC who made it a priority to get him the ball ODB played out of his mind in his rookie year. Yes, he got more targets, yes he had a better QB situation, but I won't deny that ODB played well. But it's one year. We'll see how it looks three years from now. From what I've seen of all these guys on film is Sammy is unquestionably the best talent in terms of measurable and performance on the field -- even though his numbers don't show it. I could be wrong, ODB might end up being able to consistently put up those kind of numbers (and I hope he does because he's fun to watch), but he's going to have to work even harder next year just to match it. Cruz will take targets away from him and defenses now have 12 games of film on the guy to start taking things away. I have no doubts about Sammy's work ethic, the guy is a grinder. I have a lot of doubts about ODB's... especially playing in such a distracting market like NYC. Good post. I can't disagree with any of it.
Deranged Rhino Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 Good post. I can't disagree with any of it.
Kelly the Dog Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 My lips were moving. Okay, you're forgiven.
Billsfan1972 Posted January 7, 2015 Posted January 7, 2015 How terrible it is to be a Bills fan and get excited about a gifted offensive player as opposed to lamenting what we may have drafted at # 19 in 2015...... Maybe we should have kept the pick, drafted Ebron & gone 6-10 again? Would that make people here happy? Can we all agree that Watkins is a very good player and could be great? BTW First Round Buffalo picks..... Not too many All-Pros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buffalo_Bills_first-round_draft_picks
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