Polian's Advice to the Pegulas

[bladiebla]

Wow, sage advice. Who did Marrone want? Franchise QB? Well that should be easy. Just call Greenbay and tell them to send us Rogers. Better offensive line? Picked up one guy in free agency and drafted three.

 

This was about evicerating Whaley and protecting Hackett nothing more.

 

Marrone wanted a valid QB option to backup and take over from EJ if EJ didnt pan out or got injured, such was very clear with that argument between him/Russ/Whaley at TC.

What was the timeline on that blowup at the end of preseason? Was it right after they signed that qb coach type (Palmer maybe?) and before Orton? Was Marrone looking for somebody other than EJ all along? Maybe give me EJ or that disaster of an offensive line, but not both, leading to the late signing of Orton?

 

Also makes sense of the sudden decision to leave by Marrone. Sees himself reliving the battles over the bust with Whaley that they had over the last year, and another refusal to bring in a decent qb.

Right after, sign doodle, Whaley/Marrone fight, release doodle, sign Orton.

Edited January 3, 2015 by bladiebla

[ExWNYer]

I agree with that and it got me thinking that this whole notion that Marrone wasn't given what he needed is crap.

Now, sure, maybe Marrone wanted player A and Whaley wanted B, so they selected B. That might piss Marrone off. But, both players are guards. Unless Whaley is a complete control freak (which nothing about him has ever projected as such), he was working with Marrone to bring in the players he wanted/needed. I just can't see Marrone saying I need a better RT as a priority; and Whaley then drafted everyone but a tackle until the 7th round.

 

I think the problem was in the details. Marrone wanted guard A, Whaley got him guard B. But, Whaley has the scouting department to back him up and split the tie. Or in the case of FAs, he's talking to the agents and such and knows who he can actually get versus getting wishlist guys (kinda like posters here befuddled at why we haven't signed Rodgers yet). And Marrone was too stubborn to see why he didn't always get his guy.

 

In the end, it's becoming more and more.. obvious.. Marrone and Whaley spent the last year in a power struggle. Marrone wanted a Chip Kelly type deal, and likely benched players this season to prove his point. If so, I'm really glad he's gone. He's not yet shown himself to be a great coach, let alone talent evaluator and team builder.

 

And if Polian really wanted to stand pat with Marrone, his assistants and Orton; then bring in AJ Smith over Whaley... well, I'm really glad he's decided to stay with ESPN. Nothing about that team structure sounds good.

Back when I still liked Marrone, and had no clue of any friction between him and Whaley, I believed and postulated that Whaley probably acquiesced a little to Marrone as far as OL guys go, and even QBS. Not that he would draft players he didn't like, but he would hold Marrone's opinion of those positions highly and more likely, maybe much more likely to lean toward who Marrone wanted. I know that happened with Tuel. It's impossible to believe that Marrone would tell Whaley or manos that I don't want Kujo, I don't think he will pan out, and they drafted him anyway.

Unless Pegula is an egomaniacal fool, he will listen carefully to Whaley's version of the story with an open mind. Any good boss would do this. I can't see Pegula having the success he's had without some shrewdness with people.

 

Also, last year the reports were that Whaley and Marrone were both frustrated with Littman and Overdorf's level of control. Littman was CFO (now gone) and Overdorf was "Senior VP of Football Administration" - wasn't he the one who was negotiating all the contracts? And isn't Overdorf being cut out of the coaching search? Polian's comments and Marrone's bad-mouthing are assumed to be directed at Whaley, but it seems to me there's a distinct possibility that they're directed elsewhere, at Littman, Overdorf, and even Berchtold.

 

If I'm correct, all 3 of them date from the late '80s when Polian was there, and may well have had personal stories that were not to Polian's credit - remember Levy being asked "which of Polian's temper tantrums was most memorable?" and responding "there were too many of them to choose". Obviously Levy liked and respected Polian and had to some extent an equal or superior position to protect him from ill effects, but temper tantrums from a boss towards a full subordinate are a different matter. They can be perceived as abusive or bullying.

 

All excellent points. Personally, I'm thrilled that Marrone opted out of his contract. I was happy with what his hire initially represented at the time: A younger, supposedly forward-thinking mind from the college ranks, not an NFL retread. But it became increasingly clear over the last two years that he was the same old conservative, "coaching not to lose" type of guy. Nothing innovative or special about him. His demeanor seemed to change, as well. He appeared to be upbeat and even joked with the media in his first year. This year, he seemed like a miserable mope, giving clipped and often times unintelligible responses to questions. Further, his background is offense but this offense has steadily regressed under his watch and that of his hand-picked OC. The line has gotten worse, the RBs have gotten worse, and the first WR taken in the draft was underutilized. His game day roster decisions were also baffling. Despite constant red zone problems, he routinely opted to activate a special teams guy rather than Mike Williams, who was specifically brought in to be a red zone target. Williams excelled in that role with Tampa Bay. Was a KO specialist really more important ?? All of that cannot be pinned entirely on the lack of a sufficient QB. Which is another point...where is/was the development of the young QBs he has/had? Weren't he and his staff touted as "teachers"?? All in all, he comes across as a phony, a liar, a bully, and ultimately, a quitter. That said, his choice was probably the smartest thing for him. There's a good chance that he would've been shown the door after next year and never been a HC again. If he's hired now by someone else, he gets to "reboot" and will be given at least two or three years to prove himself. In effect, he's bought himself more time. Nobody is cheering harder for him to be hired by the NJ Jest than I am. PLEASE make that happen, Woody Johnson. When it all starts to unravel in the Big Apple, the media there will eat him alive. You can't get surly and sulk there, 'Mr. Thin Skin'.

 

As for Polian, I may be in the minority, but I 'm also glad that he won't be rejoining the Bills. This is a different NFL. It's not played like it was in the '80s & '90s. He did great things with the Bills but that is distantly in the rear-view mirror now. He looks like he's a hundred years old on ESPN and he's very slow & deliberate in his thoughts and opinions. The times I've seen him on 'NFL Insiders', I haven't seen him present any earth-shattering analysis or fresh perspectives. He's old-guard NFL and it wouldn't be any better than the choice was to bring back Marv Levy. If the rumor is true that he would've brought back AJ Smith, OMG...no thanks. Polian is on TV now and not in an NFL front office for a reason. Exactly which of the other 31 teams are beating down his door to bring him on board? Thanks for the memories, Bill, but it's time for the Bills to move forward, not look back. Hopefully, the Pegulas can accomplish this and bring the team into the 21st century NFL. Just my two cents...

 

Whaley did work for the Seahawks for three years. As a scout on the east coast from 1996-1998. What an idiot Clayton is sometimes.

 

 

Maybe his "ma" made him some bad meatloaf after his segment was done?

Edited January 3, 2015 by ExWNYer

[Best Player Available]

Who are his scouts on the offensive side of the ball? The same as the scouts on the defensive side of the ball.

GO BILLS!!!

you're correct, but why can't they draft or scout FA's to save their lives on offense? They knew when Nix was here Levitre was probably leaving yet they get Doug Legursky a Steelers reject who cut him. and, the Steelers line sucked at the time. That should have raised at least a tiny red flag? And while Nelsons play at TE is (barely) acceptable. Is Lee Smith the best they Can find as a tight end prospect? gragg? I will leave the QB situation alone since that has not played out yet. Moving up for TJ Graham, it goes on throughout both the nIx and Whaley eras. if it is not scouting or the GM who is it? I guess it is easiest to blame the guy that just quit. But then Whaley and others hired these coaches.

[BADOLBILZ]

I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it was "Make sure the new head coach is actually listened to by the personnel department, when he says he needs something to run his team, they should be listening to him, and they should be acquiring the kinds of players the coach says that he needs."

 

 

 

 

ORRRRRR............do it the Bill Polian way and hire a community organizer for a head coach who won't challenge your personnel authority.

 

Marv Levy, Jim Caldwell, Dom Capers......even Tony Dungy to a great extent(and definitely his second choice to Dungy which was Dick Jauron)......were not the kind of personalities that would challenge a bully like Polian.

 

Does anyone honestly think that a strong HC like Bill Parcells or Joe Gibbs would have put up with Polian not replacing 260# Jeff Wright with a 300# run stopping DT after the Otis Anderson debacle in SB XXV?

 

Bill picked the groceries. If you couldn't make them work.....you weren't going to be his HC.

 

The best football coach he ever had was Jim Mora. Mora was a bit too opinionated for Polian.

 

Bill is right though.......if you want to win Super Bowls you gotta' be on the same page. He is proof that doing it his way was a recipe for underachievement.

[Wayne Cubed]

you're correct, but why can't they draft or scout FA's to save their lives on offense? They knew when Nix was here Levitre was probably leaving yet they get Doug Legursky a Steelers reject who cut him. and, the Steelers line sucked at the time. That should have raised at least a tiny red flag? And while Nelsons play at TE is (barely) acceptable. Is Lee Smith the best they Can find as a tight end prospect? gragg? I will leave the QB situation alone since that has not played out yet. Moving up for TJ Graham, it goes on throughout both the nIx and Whaley eras. if it is not scouting or the GM who is it? I guess it is easiest to blame the guy that just quit. But then Whaley and others hired these coaches.

 

Since Whaley has been GM:

 

Offensive guys they have hit on in the Draft: Watkins, Woods, Henderson, Goodwin.

• Richardson/Kouadijio are still ? but could be good who knows... Doug never played them. Out of the 8 offensive players drafted the Bills have hit on 4 for sure, possibly 5 or 6. I'd say thats pretty good especially since 2-3 of those are high impact players.

 

Offensive guys they have hit on in FA: Boobie Dixon.

 

• Only other FA pick up was Chris Williams and he didn't play an entire season so it's hard to know but let's say he's a miss. Dixon is still very very nice pick up.

 

Offensive guys traded or picked up: Mike Williams, Marqueis Gray, Bryce Brown

 

• Mike Williams apparently was on Dougs **** list or didn't fit his scheme which is a bit odd. Marqueis Gray is interesting and is a nice FB/TE combo. Brown looked good except for the fumble but again didn't see the field a ton, why? who knows.

 

 

So you telling me they don't know how to scout offensive players?

[Best Player Available]

Since Whaley has been GM:

 

Offensive guys they have hit on in the Draft: Watkins, Woods, Henderson, Goodwin.

 

• Richardson/Kouadijio are still ? but could be good who knows... Doug never played them. Out of the 8 offensive players drafted the Bills have hit on 4 for sure, possibly 5 or 6. I'd say thats pretty good especially since 2-3 of those are high impact players.

Offensive guys they have hit on in FA: Boobie Dixon.

 

• Only other FA pick up was Chris Williams and he didn't play an entire season so it's hard to know but let's say he's a miss. Dixon is still very very nice pick up.

Offensive guys traded or picked up: Mike Williams, Marqueis Gray, Bryce Brown

 

• Mike Williams apparently was on Dougs **** list or didn't fit his scheme which is a bit odd. Marqueis Gray is interesting and is a nice FB/TE combo. Brown looked good except for the fumble but again didn't see the field a ton, why? who knows.

 

So you telling me they don't know how to scout offensive players?

yes I am. Goodwin is a hit?Why not list the o line busts there are more than c. Williams. Edited January 3, 2015 by Best Player Available

[Wayne Cubed]

yes I am. Goodwin is a hit?Why not list the o line busts there are more than c. Williams.

 

 

Why? You said they don't know how to scout offensive players.

[Best Player Available]

Why? You said they don't know how to scout offensive players.

So in your opinion we in 2014 and 2013 had a good offense? I Guess were watching different games. Look at their ranking, and honestly tell me it is all because of inept coaching. Which granted is part of the problem.

[Wayne Cubed]

So in your opinion we in 2014 and 2013 had a good offense? I Guess were watching different games. Look at their ranking, and honestly tell me it is all because of inept coaching. Which granted is part of the problem.

 

You're changing the goal posts, where in my post did I say the Bills had a good offense? You said that Whaley doesn't know how to scout offensive players. I pointed out to players he has scouted that have been good. Thats it.

 

I'm looking at their ranking and it is in part because of coaching. Ask yourself this, where do you think average coaching gets this 2014 Bills team? 9-7 right? Where does excellent coaching get this team?

[birdog1960]

Polian doing the "CYA" tour on TV now? Great. I hope our owner stays as far away Polian as he can in the future.

what motivation does polian have for lying? he's going into the hof. he's got a cush job at the top sports network in the world. i'm sure he's financially secure. he's had nearly unprecedented success managing multiple teams. and he's obviously still respected as an expert, at least by pegula.

 

now compare that to those that might disparage him. might they have some ulterior motives other than the truth? mmm hmmm…

[Ronin]

So I was just watching some ESPN2 show called "NFL Insiders" and Polian was on, talking about why he turned down the advisory role with the Bills. It was the same that we'd already heard - the job became more of a heavy lift and time commitment than he was looking for. But they then asked him about the Pegulas and what he would recommend to get the team back on track. What he said was interesting. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it was "Make sure the new head coach is actually listened to by the personnel department, when he says he needs something to run his team, they should be listening to him, and they should be acquiring the kinds of players the coach says that he needs."

 

So I'll deduce from that what it was that Marrone said to Polian on his way out, about the structure of the front office and the responsiveness. Marrone is a dickhead, no question - but this is not the first time we've heard this kind of thing about the Bills' front office.

 

Pollen did say that the Pegulas are smart and committed and will do what they need to do to get the ship righted.

 

Time to fire some lifers, Terry.

If that's true then it sounds like the single person most needing firing is Whaley. This makes particular sense given the disagreements between Whaley and Marrone.

 

It also makes more sense than anything we've heard to date for a variety of reasons the least of which is hardly the FO's propensity to want to retain as much power as possible.

 

Pegula should have been looking into these things quietly during the season. The fact that they're/he are wasting time now having to sort thru all this bull **** might very well mean that he too is in over his head right now.

[purple haze]

So I was just watching some ESPN2 show called "NFL Insiders" and Polian was on, talking about why he turned down the advisory role with the Bills. It was the same that we'd already heard - the job became more of a heavy lift and time commitment than he was looking for. But they then asked him about the Pegulas and what he would recommend to get the team back on track. What he said was interesting. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it was "Make sure the new head coach is actually listened to by the personnel department, when he says he needs something to run his team, they should be listening to him, and they should be acquiring the kinds of players the coach says that he needs."

 

So I'll deduce from that what it was that Marrone said to Polian on his way out, about the structure of the front office and the responsiveness. Marrone is a dickhead, no question - but this is not the first time we've heard this kind of thing about the Bills' front office.

 

Pollen did say that the Pegulas are smart and committed and will do what they need to do to get the ship righted.

 

Time to fire some lifers, Terry.

 

That's BOGUS. What he's saying is Marrone wanted more control. Which wasn't in his job description. Why is that the Defense and ST's got better, but his offense got even worse? I'll say it again, we can do better at the HC position.

[TPS]

 

Polian/Marrone have succeeded in undermining Whaley's position. Not good

 

 

Maybe with some media, but the only two whose opinions of Whaley really matter seem to be backing his vision of the team's future. Ralph Wilson, God bless him, was increasingly weak and distant in his long, declining years; and, it would seem, a culture of division and contention brewed behind the scenes in the the absence of strong leadership. But times have changed. I believe Terry and Kim Pegula will not hesitate to root out the rot and establish a new culture of cooperation and winning. Let's hope this is the way it plays out. Go Bills!

 

That's the bright side, there's no doubt they will put administrators in place that they trust--out with the old guard! And I don't mean the Whaley side of the operation.

[Malazan]

I'm more comfortable with Whaley being in charge than Polian.

[TPS]

 

Since Whaley has been GM:

 

Offensive guys they have hit on in the Draft: Watkins, Woods, Henderson, Goodwin.

• Richardson/Kouadijio are still ? but could be good who knows... Doug never played them. Out of the 8 offensive players drafted the Bills have hit on 4 for sure, possibly 5 or 6. I'd say thats pretty good especially since 2-3 of those are high impact players.

 

Offensive guys they have hit on in FA: Boobie Dixon.

 

• Only other FA pick up was Chris Williams and he didn't play an entire season so it's hard to know but let's say he's a miss. Dixon is still very very nice pick up.

 

Offensive guys traded or picked up: Mike Williams, Marqueis Gray, Bryce Brown

 

• Mike Williams apparently was on Dougs **** list or didn't fit his scheme which is a bit odd. Marqueis Gray is interesting and is a nice FB/TE combo. Brown looked good except for the fumble but again didn't see the field a ton, why? who knows.

 

 

So you telling me they don't know how to scout offensive players?

I think the issue with Mike W had more to do with Orton not being comfortable with him rather than Marrone, because that's about when he got into the "doug house."

Also, Richardson did play a few games but was pulled for Urbik due to poor play. However, it will take time until we know if he and Ck are busts or not.

I do agree with you, it's kind of silly to say Whaley and his guys can find D players but not O players.

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

Was he as in love with Watkins as Whaley is/was? I'm wondering if anyone in the war room really understood exactly how deep this last draft was at the WR position.

 

You have to ask around the league if anyone understood how deep it was.

 

And look, the jury is still very much out.

 

If Watkins turns out to be Larry Fitzgerald, you have the kind of constant that has allowed Arizona to contend over several different systems and regimes. If that's the case, and the other dudes turn out to be just very good and productive a la Rod Smith or Jimmy Smith, then Whaley did in fact make the right move. That is what Whaley is banking on - that Watkins is the biggest game-changer.

 

That said, the draft is a crapshoot in some ways. If it weren't, Tom Brady would have been a #1 overall instead of #200-something. Everyone wants to think they could have forecast the emergence of a great player. It simply doesn't always happen, and ODB might be one of those guys who slipped by and turned it on as a pro. He also could be a one-year-wonder once there is more film on him and an off-season to prepare. The fact is that neither player put his team over the top to make the playoffs, and both players seem to have won a few games single-handedly for their teams. I'm confident in Watkins, and the moves to acquire players like Kiko give me confidence in Whaley.

[Protocal69]

Marrone was just trying to cover his ass. He was brought in to fix the offense and couldnt do it. Most of same players he complained on offense regressed on his watch. It was is stubbornness not to use the talent that was there.

 

I bet if you gave Chip Kelly the talent that Buffalo offense has I bet we would have made the the playoffs straight up.

 

What has he really done in his career. He was a bum lineman who only played a couple of years in the league. He was Sean Peytons flunky in NO. He took a bum team at Cuse and made them .500 and he took a over a top 10 talented d and couldnt make the playoffs in 2 years.

 

All he looks for is teams that are at rock bottom so he can make them .500 and he can pimp around like he really did something.

[John from Riverside]

Well said.

I gotta say Im getting more and more negative on Polian with each passing day........

 

Whaley's drafts for the most part have been strong......in the NFL you cant get every player you want

[Superb Owl]

Since Whaley has been GM:

 

Offensive guys they have hit on in the Draft: Watkins, Woods, Henderson, Goodwin.

 

• Richardson/Kouadijio are still ? but could be good who knows... Doug never played them. Out of the 8 offensive players drafted the Bills have hit on 4 for sure, possibly 5 or 6. I'd say thats pretty good especially since 2-3 of those are high impact players.

Offensive guys they have hit on in FA: Boobie Dixon.

 

• Only other FA pick up was Chris Williams and he didn't play an entire season so it's hard to know but let's say he's a miss. Dixon is still very very nice pick up.

Offensive guys traded or picked up: Mike Williams, Marqueis Gray, Bryce Brown

 

• Mike Williams apparently was on Dougs **** list or didn't fit his scheme which is a bit odd. Marqueis Gray is interesting and is a nice FB/TE combo. Brown looked good except for the fumble but again didn't see the field a ton, why? who knows.

 

So you telling me they don't know how to scout offensive players?

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Whaley is great at D which makes sense coming from PIT. He is just bad at O. Why not have someone separate for O? Or even have finer specialties, if someone has a knack for a certain thing, like Nix seemed to have for O-Line

[Wayne Cubed]

Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Whaley is great at D which makes sense coming from PIT. He is just bad at O. Why not have someone separate for O? Or even have finer specialties, if someone has a knack for a certain thing, like Nix seemed to have for O-Line

 

Like I said he's not bad at O, I just listed players he's hit on.