Polian's Advice to the Pegulas

[Manther]

 

He used some of the players then completely ignored others. His stubbornness meant Urbik sat on the bench and Pears was moved to right guard. Urbik is a much better RG than Pears. That move mad no sense.

 

No offense to Polian but this is completely 1 sided. He's taking what Marrone said, which sounds like whining and making assumptions.

Agreed! If the roster is excellent who needs a great coach....an important piece of a coaches duties is to teach and improve players....I don't think Marrone got that.

[Lurker]

guys like Polian, who are comfortably numb.

Nice analogy...

[Kelly the Dog]

I just don't see this. Do you really think Stevie is cut, Mike Williams gets no playing time, and we draft 3 OL men and bring one in on FA if Marrone has no say in what is going on? The whole thing reeks of revisionist history by both Marrone and Polian.

 

I think he has a say in what's going on, but I also think that Whaley brought in certain kinds of players to make a well rounded team, and Marrone just did things his way and his system, disregarding the players that he was given. Which is the height of arrogance and the wrong way to coach. I'm sure Marrone was heavily involved in the OL they chose, although he could possibly have wanted different guys and Whaley chose player A over Player B. Who knows.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

Also, I fail to see the reason why Marrone left, base on his excuses. Let's see ... concerned about future, some reports say they offered him an extension. Next he was worried about the future organization, Well he seems to be on the same page a Polian so, why would that be a concern. Apparently Polian thinks so highly of Marrone to take his word about the Negativity about him he surely would be able to do something about it in his new role.

 

None of this makes a lot of sense. My thought is as soon as the HOF vote occurs Polian will, all of a sudden, decide that the job is good again. Because outside of the Coach, what has really changed? Everyone knew they would need other options at the QB position.

[BobChalmers]

Most of the same OL players that were young rising stars two years ago (Glenn, Woods, Urbik) have REGRESSED after two years under Maroon and his handpicked OL coach Morris.

 

Marrone is full of it.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

I think he has a say in what's going on, but I also think that Whaley brought in certain kinds of players to make a well rounded team, and Marrone just did things his way and his system, disregarding the players that he was given. Which is the height of arrogance and the wrong way to coach. I'm sure Marrone was heavily involved in the OL they chose, although he could possibly have wanted different guys and Whaley chose player A over Player B. Who knows.

Maybe ... but with the "Bills Team Decision" mantra they spew I find it hard to believe that there is a player A over Player B choice without good reason(i.e the FA does not want to come to Buffalo or the player was drafted before the Bills could select them)

[xsoldier54]

 

Yeah the major retooling is from what his OC did ,which his play calling was so predictable and he was way out of his league.

I don't agree either that major retooling is needed. There is enough talent on both sides of the ball to be a playoff team right now. Marrone and his buddy Hacket mismanaged the offensive weapons that were at their disposal and IMO all that is needed is a competent HC and OC. If the Bills FO can manage that then this team is a force to be reckoned with next season.

[Doc]

I can see Marrone absolving himself of blame when it came to the offense (because Whaley did a great job of building up the defense and STs), claiming that he had no input into personnel. How would Polian verify that claim? But it still doesn't excuse the performance of the offense, which is supposedly Marrone's forte.

[Kelly the Dog]

Maybe ... but with the "Bills Team Decision" mantra they spew I find it hard to believe that there is a player A over Player B choice without good reason(i.e the FA does not want to come to Buffalo or the player was drafted before the Bills could select them)

That consensus idea is a bunch of crap. I'm sure it happens sometimes and I'm sure it happens the exact opposite others. If one guy likes A and two guys like B and they can't get a consensus they are not going to draft player C because all three kinda like him. They are going to draft A or B and then tell the media and fans they were all in consensus. It's like saying player A was at the top of our board. It's a flat lie at times.

[juno999]

This is all about Marrone. First he quit because he didn't get the extension and now he is using Polian to spin the story in a way that Marrone looks good and gets another HC job. Whaley might not be perfect, who is, but the roster is much more talented and there is better depth since he came on board. Marrone failed to use the talent he had properly, failed to recognize the shortcomings of his OC, and most importantly failed to recognize his own shortcomings i.e. too conservative, predictable, and bad game day management. I have full confidence that the Pegulas will get this going in the right direction for the first time in a long time maybe ever.

[TPS]

 

Agreed...

 

There's not many All Star Offenses in the league and finding a Franchise QB is not exactly an easy thing to do...The Bills as an Organization expected Marrone and Hackett to be able to develop a young QB with a ton of raw talent...And when they couldn't (in assuming) Marrone decides it's Whaley's fault for not bringing in a Franchise guy? Like they grow on trees?

 

Now...I'm not completely taking Whaley off the hook because we all knew going into the 2014 season with 3 kids at QB was going to be a huge risk...But the Bills were not going to be able to get much better than Orton anyway...They got Orton...And he started out decent enough...Then he regressed over the season under the awesome tutelage of St Doug and the boy wonder...I'm fairly certain Marrone asked for help along the O-line...And I'm also fairly certain he had input on the players they brought in...Now...Maybe the guys brought in were not Marrone's first choices...But no one can convince me he had zero input...No way...They signed a mid-level UFA OG, Drafted OT's in the 2nd and 7th rounds along with another prospect OG in the mid rounds...Marrone could do absolutely nothing with three of those four additions...And three of the four were rookies...They have to be developed...That's coaching...And despite what some Bills fans want to think there were plenty of Football minds who felt Kujo and Richardson had more than enough raw talent to be successful in time...Whaley also put his job on the line by going out and getting Marrone the best College WR prospect to come out since Julio Jones...Not to mention the additions of Boobie, Preston Brown, Corey Graham, etc...Whaley's not perfect...No GM is...But he's not bad either...

 

But it's all Whaley's fault because he did not give Marrone what he asked for?...Well...What the hell did he want? We all want Andrew Luck and a couple Pro-Bowl caliber OG's...Who doesn't? But it does not work that way in the NFL...And coaching makes a HUGE difference...St Doug and the boy wonder saw their side of the ball regress...Regress...And under the circumstances Marrone got a hell of a lot more talent than any of his predecessors at OBD...

 

Marrone is a joke...Please let him go to the Jets...Please, please, please...

To me, the he said, she said argument comes down to the Oline and the run game.

2013 starting lineup: Glenn+Brown/Legursky+Woods+Urbik+Pears

2014 lineup: Glenn+Williams/Richardson/Urbik+Woods+Pears+Henderson

Based on personnel, can anyone say there is a material difference? There is an experience gap at most, which could be material.

 

Running game comparisons:

Year 2013

Team 4.2ypc

FJ 4.3

CJ 4.6

Summers 3.8

Choice 3.6

 

Year 2014

Team 3.7ypc

FJ 3.7

CJ 3.8

Summers 2.8

Boobie/Brown 3.8/3.5

 

[Disclaimer: It would be more telling to analyze the changes wrt to running left, middle, right if someone has the time.]

 

It's straight-forward to explain any improvement in the passing game to a more experienced QB, but how do you explain the significant drop off in the running game? This isn't marginally different, it's HUGE!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

So I was just watching some ESPN2 show called "NFL Insiders" and Polian was on, talking about why he turned down the advisory role with the Bills. It was the same that we'd already heard - the job became more of a heavy lift and time commitment than he was looking for. But they then asked him about the Pegulas and what he would recommend to get the team back on track. What he said was interesting. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it was "Make sure the new head coach is actually listened to by the personnel department, when he says he needs something to run his team, they should be listening to him, and they should be acquiring the kinds of players the coach says that he needs."

 

So I'll deduce from that what it was that Marrone said to Polian on his way out, about the structure of the front office and the responsiveness. Marrone is a dickhead, no question - but this is not the first time we've heard this kind of thing about the Bills' front office.

 

Pollen did say that the Pegulas are smart and committed and will do what they need to do to get the ship righted.

 

Time to fire some lifers, Terry.

This is interesting, considering that Indy coach Jim Mora was held to be fired by Polian because Mora and DC Vic Fangio insisted on running a defense that required players that Polian couldn't supply whilst keeping the Manning-led successful offense in place, and Mora refused to try anything else. There is always a balance - the coach has to prioritize what he needs and be given some of it by the FO, but also have some willingness to adjust the way he runs his team to suit the personnel he has.

 

Whaley is also pretty adamant that various personnel and drafting decisions have been bought off on by everyone.

[TPS]

The more I think about this, the more worrisome it is, at least until this cluster!@#$ gets resolved...ugh!

 

Polian tells Pegulas to make sure the HC gets what he needs, implying Whaley didn't do that.

Pegulas say HC will report to them.

 

Polian/Marrone have succeeded in undermining Whaley's position. Not good.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

When he said that I believe he had already been coaching for 12-13 years. IMO more power in personal decisions is earned and doesn't usually come after a 6-10 year one and then quit the next year because you weren't listened to. If this is true Marrone has serious psychological issues.

Best insight here. In another post I linked describing various NFL organizational structures, the point was made several times that longer-tenured, successful coaches generally get more input into personnel decisions.

 

There's also the widespread "best player available" philosophy that if you truly think someone is the best player available, you go after them, rather than drafting for "need". This is widely held by the cognoscenti to be essential to building a quality team over time.

 

Marrone is supposed to be an OL specialist. I don't buy it that Marrone had no input into the OL guys who were drafted, and when it was obvious the line was performing poorly with his chosen guys, he waited to the bye week to bring in Urbik (the line was immediately better after Urbik came in). I could see something happening like Marrone coming in to bang on the desk and say "you got to hit the waiver wire and get me better OLmen" and Whaley saying "dude, you have better OLmen sitting on the bench, there's nobody better available unless you really want to give up a talented player in a trade, take another look" or Marrone saying similar about RB and Whaley saying "look, I got you a boy who can do the job, give him a try, make him active on game day, play him".

 

Listening is usually a two-way street. It's a fact that the players Marrone chose to leave inactive vs play were a puzzle to many of us.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Hopeful

[Dan]

That consensus idea is a bunch of crap. I'm sure it happens sometimes and I'm sure it happens the exact opposite others. If one guy likes A and two guys like B and they can't get a consensus they are not going to draft player C because all three kinda like him. They are going to draft A or B and then tell the media and fans they were all in consensus. It's like saying player A was at the top of our board. It's a flat lie at times.

I agree with that and it got me thinking that this whole notion that Marrone wasn't given what he needed is crap.

 

Now, sure, maybe Marrone wanted player A and Whaley wanted B, so they selected B. That might piss Marrone off. But, both players are guards. Unless Whaley is a complete control freak (which nothing about him has ever projected as such), he was working with Marrone to bring in the players he wanted/needed. I just can't see Marrone saying I need a better RT as a priority; and Whaley then drafted everyone but a tackle until the 7th round.

 

I think the problem was in the details. Marrone wanted guard A, Whaley got him guard B. But, Whaley has the scouting department to back him up and split the tie. Or in the case of FAs, he's talking to the agents and such and knows who he can actually get versus getting wishlist guys (kinda like posters here befuddled at why we haven't signed Rodgers yet). And Marrone was too stubborn to see why he didn't always get his guy.

 

In the end, it's becoming more and more.. obvious.. Marrone and Whaley spent the last year in a power struggle. Marrone wanted a Chip Kelly type deal, and likely benched players this season to prove his point. If so, I'm really glad he's gone. He's not yet shown himself to be a great coach, let alone talent evaluator and team builder.

 

And if Polian really wanted to stand pat with Marrone, his assistants and Orton; then bring in AJ Smith over Whaley... well, I'm really glad he's decided to stay with ESPN. Nothing about that team structure sounds good.

[Kelly the Dog]

I agree with that and it got me thinking that this whole notion that Marrone wasn't given what he needed is crap.Now, sure, maybe Marrone wanted player A and Whaley wanted B, so they selected B. That might piss Marrone off. But, both players are guards. Unless Whaley is a complete control freak (which nothing about him has ever projected as such), he was working with Marrone to bring in the players he wanted/needed. I just can't see Marrone saying I need a better RT as a priority; and Whaley then drafted everyone but a tackle until the 7th round.I think the problem was in the details. Marrone wanted guard A, Whaley got him guard B. But, Whaley has the scouting department to back him up and split the tie. Or in the case of FAs, he's talking to the agents and such and knows who he can actually get versus getting wishlist guys (kinda like posters here befuddled at why we haven't signed Rodgers yet). And Marrone was too stubborn to see why he didn't always get his guy.In the end, it's becoming more and more.. obvious.. Marrone and Whaley spent the last year in a power struggle. Marrone wanted a Chip Kelly type deal, and likely benched players this season to prove his point. If so, I'm really glad he's gone. He's not yet shown himself to be a great coach, let alone talent evaluator and team builder.And if Polian really wanted to stand pat with Marrone, his assistants and Orton; then bring in AJ Smith over Whaley... well, I'm really glad he's decided to stay with ESPN. Nothing about that team structure sounds good.

Back when I still liked Marrone, and had no clue of any friction between him and Whaley, I believed and postulated that Whaley probably acquiesced a little to Marrone as far as OL guys go, and even QBS. Not that he would draft players he didn't like, but he would hold Marrone's opinion of those positions highly and more likely, maybe much more likely to lean toward who Marrone wanted. I know that happened with Tuel. It's impossible to believe that Marrone would tell Whaley or manos that I don't want Kujo, I don't think he will pan out, and they drafted him anyway.

[Doc]

I can see Marrone absolving himself of blame when it came to the offense (because Whaley did a great job of building up the defense and STs), claiming that he had no input into personnel. How would Polian verify that claim? But it still doesn't excuse the performance of the offense, which is supposedly Marrone's forte.

To add to this, what was Marrone's beef with what Whaley did or didn't do on offense? Look at the skill position players the Bills had and brought in. I mean, how much more talent do you need at WR than Sammy, Woods, Williams as your starting 3? What about CJ and Fred, with Bryce Brown and Boobie Dixon thrown in? What he miffed that Chandler is a average TE and a stud wasn't brought in? And there weren't a whole lot of options at QB.

[chris heff]

The more I think about this, the more worrisome it is, at least until this cluster!@#$ gets resolved...ugh!

 

Polian tells Pegulas to make sure the HC gets what he needs, implying Whaley didn't do that.

Pegulas say HC will report to them.

 

Polian/Marrone have succeeded in undermining Whaley's position. Not good.

What? Marrone decided to go around Whaley, it was an attempt to undermine him. He asked for an extension for himself and his staff or he was going to opt out. Tried to blackmail the Pegulas and it didn't work. Anyone who has ever owned a business has had this happen. For this tactic to work the employee better have a very strong case, like Cowher vs Donahoe. Marrone is no Bill Cowher.

 

Polian's decision was based on, by his own admission, he didn't want to make a long term commitment or work very hard.

[FLFan]

Most of the same OL players that were young rising stars two years ago (Glenn, Woods, Urbik) have REGRESSED after two years under Maroon and his handpicked OL coach Morris.

 

Marrone is full of it.

No question this is true.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The more I think about this, the more worrisome it is, at least until this cluster!@#$ gets resolved...ugh!

 

Polian tells Pegulas to make sure the HC gets what he needs, implying Whaley didn't do that.

Pegulas say HC will report to them.

 

Polian/Marrone have succeeded in undermining Whaley's position. Not good.

Unless Pegula is an egomaniacal fool, he will listen carefully to Whaley's version of the story with an open mind. Any good boss would do this. I can't see Pegula having the success he's had without some shrewdness with people.

 

Also, last year the reports were that Whaley and Marrone were both frustrated with Littman and Overdorf's level of control. Littman was CFO (now gone) and Overdorf was "Senior VP of Football Administration" - wasn't he the one who was negotiating all the contracts? And isn't Overdorf being cut out of the coaching search? Polian's comments and Marrone's bad-mouthing are assumed to be directed at Whaley, but it seems to me there's a distinct possibility that they're directed elsewhere, at Littman, Overdorf, and even Berchtold.

 

If I'm correct, all 3 of them date from the late '80s when Polian was there, and may well have had personal stories that were not to Polian's credit - remember Levy being asked "which of Polian's temper tantrums was most memorable?" and responding "there were too many of them to choose". Obviously Levy liked and respected Polian and had to some extent an equal or superior position to protect him from ill effects, but temper tantrums from a boss towards a full subordinate are a different matter. They can be perceived as abusive or bullying.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Hopeful