1billsfan Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Lots of rumors that Marrone and Whaley aren't getting along. I haven't seen any confirmation, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Marrone is pissed at Whaley. Think about it: Marrone is hired to coach a team that had been lousy for many years, with not a huge amount of talent on either side of the ball. There are questions about ownership hanging over everything like a black cloud. And, above all else, the team has no franchise player at the game's most important position. He knows he has three years, at best, to turn the ship around, and this is his one big shot to be an NFL head coach. If he flames out here, he won't likely get another shot. So what happens? Whaley reaches and gets him a questionable QB in the first round, which means there will be pressure to have him play. They need a veteran QB for security, but Whaley gets him a dud in Kolb, who can't make it past preseason. So now Marrone goes into the first season of his one big chance at NFL head coach with a questionable rookie QB, a barely serviceable backup QB who has no time to learn the offense because he was signed so late, and another rookie QB who really shouldn't be playing against professionals. They enter the season with huge questions at the game's most important position. That's a recipe for failure, and I'm sure Marrone puts most of the blame for that on Whaley. So they go into the second season of his one big chance at NFL head coach with the same three guys, and guess what? They still aren't very good. The questionable first-round QB still doesn't excel, and the barely serviceable backup QB regresses and is dumped late in the preseason. Whaley sifts through the garbage heap and comes up empty. Then, right before the season begins, he desperately signs a historically mediocre veteran out of "retirement" as a safety measure, who has no time to learn the offense because he was signed so late. There are signs of tension and shouting between Marrone and management, but who could blame him? They enter the season with huge questions at the game's most important position. Things are so bad, the safety measure who barely knows the offense is starting at QB a quarter of the way through the season. Now the historically mediocre veteran QB is retired, and Marrone is looking at the third season of his one big chance at NFL head coach with only two QBs on the roster -- the questionable first-rounder, who he doesn't have a lot of confidence in, and the third stringer who still shouldn't be playing against professionals. He's looking at yet another season with huge questions at the game's most important position. His three years will be up soon, and in that time Whaley has done him no favors at the QB position. In fact, the only favor he did was to get him a backup-quality QB who wouldn't even stick around more than one season. Twice now, Marrone has had to field QB's who had little experience in the offensive system because they weren't around for minicamp or training camp. Sure, finding a franchise QB is tough. But yeah, if I was Marrone I wouldn't be too happy with Whaley. Really?! Whaley isn’t the one that hired his buddy Nate Hackett as OC, a guy who had no experience being an NFL coordinator. There's no doubt that during the HC hiring process the Bills were discussing taking a project QB prospect in EJ Manuel who everyone knew would need a LOT of expert coaching to get ready. As a comparison, here is what other NFL teams gave their rookie QBs as an expert QB instructor to get them ready to become a starter in the NFL… Luck - Bruce Arians RGIII - Mike Shanahan Tannehill - Mike Sherman Bridgewater - Norv Turner Manuel - Hackett Marrone’s hiring of Hackett was professional malpractice since it was his job to find the best person to coach up an incoming rookie QB (he no doubt knew they were drafting one). No one talks about this. As if Hackett was an acceptable choice to develop EJ Manuel. The lack of anger over Marrone’s decision to hire Hackett as his OC still amazes me. How is Hackett still employed right now?
Rubes Posted December 30, 2014 Author Posted December 30, 2014 Seriously, who would you, or Marrone be happier with as far as available vets and rookies to draft? Well, to be honest, I'd have to go back a couple of years to see who was available, whether in the draft, through FA, or by trade. I don't know. It's not my job to know. All I can say is that there is a real possibility that Marrone feels like he was given the shaft -- rightly or wrongly -- by having to start the season with EJ/Thad/Tuel. I don't know if Marrone was totally on board with drafting EJ, maybe he liked him but not in round 1. Maybe there was pressure from Nix/Whaley to grab someone that year in the first round, regardless. Maybe Marrone was okay with drafting EJ, but wanted someone a bit more reliable than Kolb to start things out so EJ could sit and learn. Maybe there was a different vet he liked better, but Nix/Whaley didn't agree, or didn't do what it took to get him. I have no idea. What I do know is that the combination of EJ-Kolb/Thad-Tuel was not a recipe for success, and I still think it's possible that Marrone was not totally on board with going into the season that way.
BillsVet Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Nix was still the GM. All three of them, plus Overdorf had their say. I imagine, of the three, that it was Nix who made the call. It's easy to imagine that amongst four guys, and the choices, which were basically Marrone and Wisenhunt and 1-2 others (but not Kelly or any of the big names), that there was no clear consensus. It would be much more surprising that all four agreed on one guy than it would be that 2 or 3 liked one slightly and 1 or 2 liked another slightly more. KtD you and I both know that Nix didn't retire unexpectedly in May 2013. Are we to believe Brandon didn't have a plan in place for Nix to step down and Whaley take over when he became team president? For a guy like Brandon to not have a plan and figure Nix would be there until the latter told him he wouldn't is a stretch. This is business/marketing guru Russ Brandon we're talking about here. Furthermore, remember when they went looking a HC early in 2010? They couldn't get an interview, save for Fewell, Leslie Frazier, and Gailey. And so the choice was Gailey. Fast forward 3 years and all of a sudden they get all these HC candidates? Why? What changed? Couldn't it be that Brandon told the HC candidates that the GM was changing to make the position as Buffalo HC more appealing? It wasn't because Brandon had replaced RW as defacto owner either. I don't buy for one minute that anyone but Brandon selected the HC, or that Russ had the biggest vote among Nix and Whaley on the HC. And that Nix was being pushed aside behind closed doors upon Brandon taking over. The results were disastrous and no way would anyone worth a dime keep the same GM in place and expect to get decent HC candidates.
PolishDave Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Anyone who thinks Marrone didn't have a say in the QBs they brought in including drafting EJ simply isnt paying attention. It's not like Whaley is picking these guys on his own and forcing them on Marrone. Any tension between the two is most likely a power play from Marrone and his ego which is well documented. It would not surprise me one bit if Marrone isn't using his 3 day window to force the Bills hand for a new contract and more power. Marrone isn't stupid. You don't screw over guys you intend to work with for the next few years. Marrone wouldn't use this moment in time and his 3 day out clause to do that because it would ruin his relationship with the guys he works with every day. If he gets a contract extension it will be if and when he proves he deserves one because he is an excellent coach. If he tries to pressure them into a contract extension right now, you can bet they will whip him the bird and show him the door. And it would burn those relationships permanently, especially the lovey dovey relationship he has with Brandon.
Nanker Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Not surprising to me that Whaley would be angry with Marrone. Coach is stubborn. His OLine expertise was as valuable as a bucket of warm spit. His OLine couldn't run block but made up for that by having a great inability to pass protect as well. He routinely benched players with more talent to play lesser yes-men. He is not innovative on Offense. He hired a chucklehead to coordinate that offensive offense. He doesn't know how to use a talent like CJ and Sammy. His game clock management would make Bugs Bunny chuckle. He was petulant and immature in his dealings with the media this year. Saint Doug indeed. Saint Dookie is more like it.
Kelly the Dog Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 KtD you and I both know that Nix didn't retire unexpectedly in May 2013. Are we to believe Brandon didn't have a plan in place for Nix to step down and Whaley take over when he became team president? For a guy like Brandon to not have a plan and figure Nix would be there until the latter told him he wouldn't is a stretch. This is business/marketing guru Russ Brandon we're talking about here. Furthermore, remember when they went looking a HC early in 2010? They couldn't get an interview, save for Fewell, Leslie Frazier, and Gailey. And so the choice was Gailey. Fast forward 3 years and all of a sudden they get all these HC candidates? Why? What changed? Couldn't it be that Brandon told the HC candidates that the GM was changing to make the position as Buffalo HC more appealing? It wasn't because Brandon had replaced RW as defacto owner either. I don't buy for one minute that anyone but Brandon selected the HC, or that Russ had the biggest vote among Nix and Whaley on the HC. And that Nix was being pushed aside behind closed doors upon Brandon taking over. The results were disastrous and no way would anyone worth a dime keep the same GM in place and expect to get decent HC candidates. I just see it differently. There was a big difference from the Gailey hire and the marrone hire, and that was Brandon taking over for Ralph. They couldn't get anyone but Gailey because of Ralph and had to settle for scraps, similar to what happened in Cleveland last year. With Brandon, and less of the purse strings taken off, it was a lot easier although not ideal. They could at least offer guys like Shanahan a huge contract, although they likely were not going to get them if any kind of bidding war would transpire. But surely around the league the job was way better than the last time. The Mario contract was a good indication, too. As far as Nix goes, of course they had the transition plan and planned. But part of that was Nix going out with a QB that he drafted. He said it a lot. That's why I think the brain trust as a whole were all in agreement about EJ. Just because they thought he was the best choice didn't mean they thought he was a sure thing. I'm positive that they thought what everyone thought, that NONE of these guys are close to a sure thing, it's just a matter of who has the best chance to be good and/or great. But I'm sure that Brandon would not make the final call on a draft pick, and pretty damn sure he wouldn't handpick a HC that his outgoing GM and his new GM didn't agree with. That's not his job.
Nanker Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 The JESTS would have taken EJ in the 1st with their 2nd pick if The Bills didn't grab him. We'd have been stuck with Gee-NO!
Malazan Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 I'm curious about the tension between Whaley and Marrone. I didn't think much of it before, but I wonder how Brandon fits into it as well. There is a bit in an article about Orton's retirment that perked my curiosity: Before the Bills' team meeting on Monday morning, Orton walked into coach Doug Marrone's office and told him the news. Marrone, like most people who heard the news, was surprised and asked Orton to think about it. But the 10th-year journeyman had his mind made up. He was happy with his decision. At that point, Marrone informed team president Russ Brandon and asked him to inform Whaley while Marrone informed new owners Terry and Kim Pegula. Source: http://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2014/12/kyle_orton_retirement_surprises_doug_whaley_doug_marrone_buffalo_bills_in_a_bind.html It may be nothing, but it seemed strange to me. Given the source, it may not even be true. It does seem that there is a disconnect between the two though.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 It's hard to win in the NFL. Who was Marrone going to get at QB that would have made him "happy?" I believe he said, "it is very difficult to win in the NFL" yesterday
thewildrabbit Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 I realize that Marrone, Hackett, and Whaley were all NFL rookies at their new jobs last season (2013) But that still doesn't give them a viable intelligent reason to have no QB coach, no senior NFL offensive adviser, and three rookie QB's on the roster. Those moves were monumentally moronic, and border on insanity. It has become ever so clear to me as an outsider looking in that Hackett is a complete buffoon, and shouldn't have been retained after his first year as OC. Yet, here we are going into a third off season with no changes mentioned. All three rookie QB's regressed badly under Hackett, as did Kyle Orton. Whomever thought that Jeff Tuel would even be a viable NFL backup either didn't actually look at his college history or didn't care. This could be St Doug in his unbelievable arrogance. Then It looks to me that there isn't one scout on the offensive side of the ball that has the first clue in identifying quality talent. Not for any position on offense, QB, O line, WR, TE, RB. I see a huge disconnect between Whaley and Marrone in so many areas. The O line that Marrone wanted changes on and was denied, the QB's, the trading for Mike Williams, Bryce Brown, and trading away Stevie Johnson. My take is Whaley said enough of this rookie QB crap, and went after Kyle Orton. Then Orton managed to save all their jobs despite no real OC, a horrid O line, no running game, and some of the most atrocious offensive all around blocking I've ever seen. The fact that when Orton first told Marrone he was retiring, Marrone then asked him to reconsider. Then his next move was to inform the team owner rather then the GM. This entire mess comes down to not having a senior NFL "football" man at the top to properly direct the team, GM, coaches, offensive schemes. The team still lacks a defined offensive direction. Last year it was all out running, and this year all out passing. Both Pettine, and Schwartz were both experienced enough to know and understand how to run their side of the ball without help. Players, coaches, schemes. The HC was more intent on helping his buddy the ST coach all season then his OC, and it showed. The offensive side is still a disaster, and now with no Orton it just gets worse. Just my 2 cents.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 The JESTS would have taken EJ in the 1st with their 2nd pick if The Bills didn't grab him. We'd have been stuck with Gee-NO! or not, maybe they take someone else latter like Foles or Glennon
kota Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 I still don't understand why people are concerned with the relationship between Whaley and Marrone. They looked just fine together yesterday on the podium. They looked to be in step and on the same page of everything. I am sure a few naysayers will say they put on a face but you would be able to tell if there was tension. You can cut Tension with a knife. I didn't get that sense at all. People need to stop picking up little tidbits that the media is reporting. The Media will report anything they can to draw interest so people read their articles and columns. I honestly hope there are alot of disagreements about the team between the HC and GM as long as it's constructive. When people have differing opinions they need to put everything on the table and in the end the best decision will be made if everyone is heard. I work in a Fortune 100 company and this is common practice in corporations. A Football Organization is no different. The fact they are are doing the 360 approach with the players where they get input from the players on everything in the organization shows me that the are taking this approach. It was almost laughable that these bo dunk reporters had no idea what Marrone was talking about when it was brought up. It's an effective tool if used properly and I am glad the Bills are using it.
DrDawkinstein Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) The only thing I cant believe is how much all you grown men act like little school girls and make up this crap. Its obvious that few, if any of you, have ever been in a high-pressure position running a company with a close-knit team. Yes, there will be disagreements. GOOD! That means they CARE! But everyone knows you are all arguing for the good of the organization, so at the end of the day there are no hard feelings, there are no grudges. You say your piece, and you move on. If you want everyone agreeing on everything, then go back to nice guys like Levy and Jauron. I want some ass-kickers that will stand up for their beliefs and opinions. I also trust that the Dougs are professional enough to let things go once the matter is settled. Because that's what grown-ass men do! I can speak from personal experience on this, having just sold off my 2nd telecom company. I was 1 of 4 founding members, and you best believe that over the 8 years we were together, we had some real knock-down drag-out arguments. Some to the point where a partner and I would actually leave the office in order to yell it out. But then we walk in, grumble back to our desks, take a breath... and see where we want to go to lunch like old buddies. We clashed way more than we agreed, and I wouldnt have had it any other way. It helped us make the best decisions, and those 3 other guys will always be some of my closest friends. And you "guys" are in here worrying about why Marrone texted Pegula first. Good grief. Go back to worrying about your prom dress, it'll be here in no time. edit: Kota gets it! Edited December 30, 2014 by DrDareustein
thebandit27 Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Here is how I see those same events. Marrone and Whaley started out on basically the same page. I had heard that Marrone was not Whaley's first choice, Wisenhunt was, but that may or may not enter into any of this. Marrone said Nassib was not good enough or they would have taken him, but told Whaley get me the QB with the best tools and potential, and Nate and I can mold him. They were likely in agreement on EJ being the best to work with and most potential regardless of how much each thought of him. Geno was the only other possible choice. Kolb was brought in to start. And EJ to sit. There weren't any better options really as far as veterans go although I never liked Kolb at all. It's not like there was a lot of choice. EJ beat Kolb out and then Kolb got hurt. For some unknown reason, Marrone also fell in love with Tuel and thought he could mold him like he did Nassib. Tuel was always a Marrone guy not a Whaley guy. When Kolb was done they had to get a vet and Whaley got Thad, with Marrone insisting Tuel can play. EJ got hurt again and Thad played better than expected but not good. Tuel was horrible but Marrone still liked him as a development guy. In the off season, Whaley and Marrone both looked at all the available veterans around, EJs potential, Thad's serviceability, and EJ's fragile ego, and decided together that it's not the best situation but there isn't an obvious choice for veteran starter or even backup. Vick is about the only one and he wants to start. The Bucs promised McKown he would start. So we are better off not threatening Ej, making him the starter, and working with Thad, as a backup. We won two games with him. He's a gamer. And Marrone insisted he could develop Tuel. It wasn't perfect but I think they both agreed on that. During OTAs and training camp, both Thad and Tuel regressed. When the preseason started, Whaley pulled the plug and went hard after Orton, who was never going to sign with anyone until the eve of the season. They signed Palmer when Thad went from bad to worse. It's possible then that Marrone said you're kidding me, but I think the Bills probably knew it was a good chance the Thursday ending the preseason, that they would get Orton, because it was the best chance that he would play. EJ faltered. Marrone was convinced and probably right that Orton gave him the best chance to win, and started playing Orton. Probably very close to the truth here...I believe that you're right on with Nix making the final call on Marrone. Brandon pushed for him to be interviewed, but it's not at all his style to put his foot down and demand that Marrone be hired. Whaley didn't hire Marrone. Marrone is close to Brandon, who did have the most say in hiring him. Heck, before the Oakland game, Brandon was talking to Marrone in the fieldhouse while the former was in shorts and a sweatshirt. This conflict is the product of the team president deciding on a HC and not the GM, who should have the say given that much of his success or failure is the determined by that HC. And people wonder why the franchise can't get it right for 15 years. Brandon didn't--to my knowledge--make the final call on Marrone. He certainly could have if he wanted to, but it runs completely opposite of the way he's run the team in his short time as President and CEO. He wants his football people making those calls from what I understand. Now, that doesn't mean that Nix didn't decide on Marrone because he wanted to make Brandon happy, which is a whole different discussion. Whether Marrone ends up a good coach or not, that's not how the GM should be making his decisions. Nix was still the GM. All three of them, plus Overdorf had their say. I imagine, of the three, that it was Nix who made the call. It's easy to imagine that amongst four guys, and the choices, which were basically Marrone and Wisenhunt and 1-2 others (but not Kelly or any of the big names), that there was no clear consensus. It would be much more surprising that all four agreed on one guy than it would be that 2 or 3 liked one slightly and 1 or 2 liked another slightly more. Again, that sounds like what I've heard as well.
Direhard Fan Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 all the spec on Marron and others think he would have a job tomorow if he left. He did the best with what he had. If our QB was so bad how did Sammy get that many yards? I think our receivers made Ortin look OK. Not Ortin. I'm not sad to see him go.
BillsVet Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 I just see it differently. There was a big difference from the Gailey hire and the marrone hire, and that was Brandon taking over for Ralph. They couldn't get anyone but Gailey because of Ralph and had to settle for scraps, similar to what happened in Cleveland last year. With Brandon, and less of the purse strings taken off, it was a lot easier although not ideal. They could at least offer guys like Shanahan a huge contract, although they likely were not going to get them if any kind of bidding war would transpire. But surely around the league the job was way better than the last time. The Mario contract was a good indication, too. As far as Nix goes, of course they had the transition plan and planned. But part of that was Nix going out with a QB that he drafted. He said it a lot. That's why I think the brain trust as a whole were all in agreement about EJ. Just because they thought he was the best choice didn't mean they thought he was a sure thing. I'm positive that they thought what everyone thought, that NONE of these guys are close to a sure thing, it's just a matter of who has the best chance to be good and/or great. But I'm sure that Brandon would not make the final call on a draft pick, and pretty damn sure he wouldn't handpick a HC that his outgoing GM and his new GM didn't agree with. That's not his job. I'm going to go ahead and disagree in true Bill Lumbergh fashion with your take. But I get why you disagree. Fair enough.
San-O Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 Lots of rumors that Marrone and Whaley aren't getting along. I haven't seen any confirmation, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Marrone is pissed at Whaley. Think about it: Marrone is hired to coach a team that had been lousy for many years, with not a huge amount of talent on either side of the ball. There are questions about ownership hanging over everything like a black cloud. And, above all else, the team has no franchise player at the game's most important position. He knows he has three years, at best, to turn the ship around, and this is his one big shot to be an NFL head coach. If he flames out here, he won't likely get another shot. So what happens? Whaley reaches and gets him a questionable QB in the first round, which means there will be pressure to have him play. They need a veteran QB for security, but Whaley gets him a dud in Kolb, who can't make it past preseason. So now Marrone goes into the first season of his one big chance at NFL head coach with a questionable rookie QB, a barely serviceable backup QB who has no time to learn the offense because he was signed so late, and another rookie QB who really shouldn't be playing against professionals. They enter the season with huge questions at the game's most important position. That's a recipe for failure, and I'm sure Marrone puts most of the blame for that on Whaley. So they go into the second season of his one big chance at NFL head coach with the same three guys, and guess what? They still aren't very good. The questionable first-round QB still doesn't excel, and the barely serviceable backup QB regresses and is dumped late in the preseason. Whaley sifts through the garbage heap and comes up empty. Then, right before the season begins, he desperately signs a historically mediocre veteran out of "retirement" as a safety measure, who has no time to learn the offense because he was signed so late. There are signs of tension and shouting between Marrone and management, but who could blame him? They enter the season with huge questions at the game's most important position. Things are so bad, the safety measure who barely knows the offense is starting at QB a quarter of the way through the season. Now the historically mediocre veteran QB is retired, and Marrone is looking at the third season of his one big chance at NFL head coach with only two QBs on the roster -- the questionable first-rounder, who he doesn't have a lot of confidence in, and the third stringer who still shouldn't be playing against professionals. He's looking at yet another season with huge questions at the game's most important position. His three years will be up soon, and in that time Whaley has done him no favors at the QB position. In fact, the only favor he did was to get him a backup-quality QB who wouldn't even stick around more than one season. Twice now, Marrone has had to field QB's who had little experience in the offensive system because they weren't around for minicamp or training camp. Sure, finding a franchise QB is tough. But yeah, if I was Marrone I wouldn't be too happy with Whaley. I don't know how anybody could have screwed up the QB situation any worse than Whaley has....
RuntheDamnBall Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 I don't know how anybody could have screwed up the QB situation any worse than Whaley has.... Browns?
1billsfan Posted December 30, 2014 Posted December 30, 2014 I don't know how anybody could have screwed up the QB situation any worse than Whaley has.... Sure thing, and Marrone hiring a guy who had no experience as an NFL offensive coordinator had nothing to do with Manuel and Orton's failures.
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