Did Whaley Panic?

[CodeMonkey]

If Watkins becomes a perrennial all-pro - which he clearly has the talent to be - how will people feel then? He's a freaking good player.

The same. Watkins is a good player and it is likely he will continue to get better, particularly if the Bills can find a QB. But that doesn't change the fact that the Bills could have gotten a WR in that draft that is nearly, if not completely, as good without overspending.

Edited December 26, 2014 by CodeMonkey

[Maddog69]

 

The same. Watkins is a good player and it is likely he will continue to get better, particularly if the Bills can find a QB. But that doesn't change the fact that the Bills could have gotten a WR in that draft that is nearly, if not completely, as good without overspending.

This is exactly the point.

 

Let's say you buy a Mercedes, fully loaded with all the bells and whistles and pay 3x the sticker price for it. No doubt you have an amazing vehicle that you will be thoroughly pleased with. Now lets assume your brother in law goes out and buys a Mercedes like yours with all the Bells and whistles at sticker price. You both have awesome cars, but you will kick yourself in the butt for overpaying.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

 

This is exactly the point.

 

Let's say you buy a Mercedes, fully loaded with all the bells and whistles and pay 3x the sticker price for it. No doubt you have an amazing vehicle that you will be thoroughly pleased with. Now lets assume your brother in law goes out and buys a Mercedes like yours with all the Bells and whistles at sticker price. You both have awesome cars, but you will kick yourself in the butt for overpaying.

Given the Bills' drafting mediocrity in the early to mid first round over the years, I'll take the sure-thing elite player every day of the week. Bear in mind that the Bills would likely have taken Ebron without the trade, and so far he looks like a JAG.

[H2o]

"The Pegulas' first order of business will be deciding whether to keep General Manager Doug Whaley and coach Doug Marrone. Apparently, tension mounted between the two during the season. Some inside the organization believe that their working relationship is beyond repair."

 

http://www.buffalone...e-soon-20141225

 

Fwiw, I am absolutely convinced that Manuel was Whaley's pick. He is the guy who scouted him personally in the rain at FSU in Feb 2013, and he was almost definitely the Bills guy who was quoted by SI at Barkley's USC workout, saying that his arm was unimpressive. He wanted a big arm, and when Manuel was drafted, he went on about how good it was.

 

If Whaley takes the fall for Marrone and Hackett's ineptitude I would be completely disgusted. Whaley has built a pretty good team for us Bills fans the last couple of years, especially through the draft and moves on the defensive side of the ball. Yes we don't have the greatest line, but there are teams around the league with weaknesses who actually (think about this now) come up with gameplans to utilize their BEST players on Sunday. They haven't done it with Spiller since they've been here and they sure as hell didn't use Sammy like they could have this season either. Don't just blame Sammy's so called "lack of production" compared to other WR's in this class on Whaley supposedly failing to address spots on the team. There are many areas he did address which is why we have the players to make us a top 5 defense and ST unit. Could we have done something different? Sure, the other 31 teams in the league could say the same thing about addressing their weak spots on the team and their fans could tell you exactly what they should have done as well.

Edited December 26, 2014 by H2o

[birdog1960]

some history of big trades involving 1st round picks: http://q.usatoday.com/2014/10/21/nfl-trades-first-round-picks-busts/. in how many of these would you retrospectively choose the picks over the player?

[Wayne Cubed]

 

The same. Watkins is a good player and it is likely he will continue to get better, particularly if the Bills can find a QB. But that doesn't change the fact that the Bills could have gotten a WR in that draft that is nearly, if not completely, as good without overspending.

 

But the question then becomes how do you know for certain in one of these other good receivers has the same season they had this year on the Bills roster? You don't know.

 

Let's say they stayed at 9 or the trade up failed and ODB Jr. is the pick, he was injured for the first couple games which would have surely annoyed some fans. Then look at Sammy targets per game and look at ODB's. He wouldn't have seen the ball nearly as much as he is in NY/NJ.

 

And you'd have the fans who would have said "could have traded up to get and the Bills failed again..."

 

[Bangarang]

The same. Watkins is a good player and it is likely he will continue to get better, particularly if the Bills can find a QB. But that doesn't change the fact that the Bills could have gotten a WR in that draft that is nearly, if not completely, as good without overspending.

 

We also could have drafted Brady in the 5th round. Drafting is easy when you already know the results. Who's to say that ODB is as productive here as he is NY?

[SBUffalo]

some history of big trades involving 1st round picks: http://q.usatoday.com/2014/10/21/nfl-trades-first-round-picks-busts/. in how many of these would you retrospectively choose the picks over the player?

 

7 and 8 are the only ones in which I wouldn't take the picks over the player. But those are bad comparisons because each of those players had a certain circumstance that forced a deal.

[San-O]

He absolutely did panic. I don't think there's any question. They invested HEAVILY on the O., on a position that had a number of top talents, traded away future picks which is ridiculous to do for a receiver, AND was convinced E.J. was the guy to get him the ball, which he obviously wasn't. This isn't revisionist history either, as I was saying this before the draft also. Ask my son-in-law!!

 

 

That's three (3) mistakes in one shot in my book. EPIC.

 

To make it worse, the O line is again a mess, and now the Bills have no QB going forward.

 

He set the franchise back again, regardless of the success on D, which was pretty good.

 

 

Note: The Bills seemed to be almost injury free this year. Would anyone have a link to player-games-lost for the year?

 

 

Merry Christmas.

 

If Whaley takes the fall for Marrone and Hackett's ineptitude I would be completely disgusted. Whaley has built a pretty good team for us Bills fans the last couple of years, especially through the draft and moves on the defensive side of the ball. Yes we don't have the greatest line, but there are teams around the league with weaknesses who actually (think about this now) come up with gameplans to utilize their BEST players on Sunday. They haven't done it with Spiller since they've been here and they sure as hell didn't use Sammy like they could have this season either. Don't just blame Sammy's so called "lack of production" compared to other WR's in this class on Whaley supposedly failing to address spots on the team. There are many areas he did address which is why we have the players to make us a top 5 defense and ST unit. Could we have done something different? Sure, the other 31 teams in the league could say the same thing about addressing their weak spots on the team and their fans could tell you exactly what they should have done as well.

 

This offense has:

 

1. No QB.

2. No O-line.

3. Suspect receivers outside of Watson.

4. Who knows what at RB.

[You herd it hear last]

Sammy makes the game look easy. It's a trait of the great ones. The other receivers taken, albeit have excellent physical tools and decent production, don't have what Watkins has. Perhaps he had less opportunities due to the overall ineffectiveness of the offense, the limitations of the QBing and injuries. Just try to stop this guy next year.

[SBUffalo]

Sammy makes the game look easy. It's a trait of the great ones. The other receivers taken, albeit have excellent physical tools and decent production, don't have what Watkins has. Perhaps he had less opportunities due to the overall ineffectiveness of the offense, the limitations of the QBing and injuries. Just try to stop this guy next year.

 

I don't think you've watched ODB or Mike Evans... Not to mention that Evanshas better stats with a similarly poor QB situation.

Edited December 26, 2014 by SBUffalo

[Maddog69]

Sammy makes the game look easy. It's a trait of the great ones. The other receivers taken, albeit have excellent physical tools and decent production, don't have what Watkins has. Perhaps he had less opportunities due to the overall ineffectiveness of the offense, the limitations of the QBing and injuries. Just try to stop this guy next year.

by all accounts, our receivers were not able to get open against the Raiders. THE F&CKING RAIDERS. Tell me again how Sammy makes the game look easy? He's made some good plays. He's also quit on routes shows some very poor body language when things don't go his way (AKA: Pouts). I think Watkins is a good WR, but we should stop making excuses for him. The other rookie receivers (Beckam, Evans, Brandin Cook even Jordan Matthews) have faced challenges too and have looked tremendous.

[dave mcbride]

by all accounts, our receivers were not able to get open against the Raiders. THE F&CKING RAIDERS. Tell me again how Sammy makes the game look easy? He's made some good plays. He's also quit on routes shows some very poor body language when things don't go his way (AKA: Pouts). I think Watkins is a good WR, but we should stop making excuses for him. The other rookie receivers (Beckam, Evans, Brandin Cook even Jordan Matthews) have faced challenges too and have looked tremendous.

He was wide open down the sideline right before the half but Orton overthrew him.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

He was wide open down the sideline right before the half but Orton overthrew him.

 

He was also wide open on the TD catch...

[Bangarang]

by all accounts, our receivers were not able to get open against the Raiders. THE F&CKING RAIDERS. Tell me again how Sammy makes the game look easy? He's made some good plays. He's also quit on routes shows some very poor body language when things don't go his way (AKA: Pouts). I think Watkins is a good WR, but we should stop making excuses for him. The other rookie receivers (Beckam, Evans, Brandin Cook even Jordan Matthews) have faced challenges too and have looked tremendous.

 

Our receivers were able to get open against the Raiders. I believe Orton predetermines where he's throwing the ball before it is snapped a little too much. I also think Orton's accuracy has taken a dump in the last 2 months. Guys are getting hopen but he can't deliver the ball for plays to be made. What I've seen on film seems to confirm that.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Bangarang

[H2o]

He absolutely did panic. I don't think there's any question. They invested HEAVILY on the O., on a position that had a number of top talents, traded away future picks which is ridiculous to do for a receiver, AND was convinced E.J. was the guy to get him the ball, which he obviously wasn't. This isn't revisionist history either, as I was saying this before the draft also. Ask my son-in-law!!

 

 

That's three (3) mistakes in one shot in my book. EPIC.

 

To make it worse, the O line is again a mess, and now the Bills have no QB going forward.

 

He set the franchise back again, regardless of the success on D, which was pretty good.

 

 

Note: The Bills seemed to be almost injury free this year. Would anyone have a link to player-games-lost for the year?

 

 

Merry Christmas.

 

 

 

This offense has:

 

1. No QB.

2. No O-line.

3. Suspect receivers outside of Watson.

4. Who knows what at RB.

 

QB? I'll give you that, but you can't tell me Orton couldn't be serviceable al Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer.

 

OL? Yes, we have discussed this. Doug Marrone's specialty is supposed to be OL though and he hasn't done very well with what he has. How else do you explain how Urbik is decent enough one year, but the next can't even get on the field until 3rd or 4th shot in the rotation. Some of that has to be coaching and scheme I would believe.

 

WR? Watkins is a star in the making in my opinion, better than anything we have had in previous years. Woods is solid and a quality WR. The use of Mike Williams is pretty mind boggling to me. Don't get it. The guy was a Pro Bowl caliber WR at one point, but now can't get on the field in Buffalo. Could be his own issues causing the problem, but he could have been useful if utilized. Hogan has quietly emerged as a pretty decent slot receiver. Marquise Goodwin can burn defenses deep on any given moment, but he has to stay helathy to do that. Chandler is what he is, a decent TE in today's NFL. He'll work hard, catch a few passes, and is big enough to be a Red Zone threat if his number is called.

 

RB? Fred is Fred, just one of the better Buffalo Bills players we have seen in a while. He's not the Fred of 3 years ago, but he still has a little tread left on the tires. Is he Jamaal Charles, LeSean McCoy, or Demarco Murray? Of course not. He will give 110% and leave it all on the field though with some fairly productive numbers. Spiller has been misused by MARRONE and HACKETT since day one they stepped foot in the door. Look at his last season under Gailey and what has happened since. It goes back again to what I said before aout gameplanning to utilize your best players in a way to give them the opportunity to be successful. Dixon is a big boy who can get you some yards here or there and pound it between the OT's. Bryce Brown had some success in Philly, but wasn't pulled off the shelf here until Spiller and Jackson went down. He had some fumbling issues at times, but I remember watching him for the Eagles and thinking he was talented enough to be a quality RB in the NFL.

 

We need help on the OL we all agree, could definitely use an upgrade @ QB, but the rest I attribute to scheme and coaching. We have good, but not GREAT players on this offense (though I do think Watkins will be great at some point). Our coaching staff though has been mainly vanilla in their approach and I think their tactics have handcuffed what some of our players could be doing well if given the opportunity.

[purple haze]

I like a GM that targets his player and gets er done....

 

You guys ask for this every day........well he did !

 

Amen. There is a whole bunch of 20/20 hindsight going on in ITT. I continue to be certain most on this board will be overjoyed Watkins is a Bill, as opposed to any other of the WR’s they might have drafted, by the time is his rookie deal is up.

[San-O]

QB? I'll give you that, but you can't tell me Orton couldn't be serviceable al Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer.

 

I am telling you, Orton is NOT serviceable, he's terrible.

 

 

OL? Yes, we have discussed this. Doug Marrone's specialty is supposed to be OL though and he hasn't done very well with what he has. How else do you explain how Urbik is decent enough one year, but the next can't even get on the field until 3rd or 4th shot in the rotation. Some of that has to be coaching and scheme I would believe.

Agree

His specialty was supposed to be O-line. They have poor personnel, however either Marrone gets blame or his O line coach. Take your pick.

 

WR? Watkins is a star in the making in my opinion, better than anything we have had in previous years. Woods is solid and a quality WR. The use of Mike Williams is pretty mind boggling to me. Don't get it. The guy was a Pro Bowl caliber WR at one point, but now can't get on the field in Buffalo. Could be his own issues causing the problem, but he could have been useful if utilized. Hogan has quietly emerged as a pretty decent slot receiver. Marquise Goodwin can burn defenses deep on any given moment, but he has to stay helathy to do that. Chandler is what he is, a decent TE in today's NFL. He'll work hard, catch a few passes, and is big enough to be a Red Zone threat if his number is called.

This entire group disappeared at times, Williams, gone. Woods. Drops waiting to happen? Hogan. Bad and good. Goodwin. Does little. Chandler. Can do much better IMO.

 

RB? Fred is Fred, just one of the better Buffalo Bills players we have seen in a while. He's not the Fred of 3 years ago, but he still has a little tread left on the tires. Is he Jamaal Charles, LeSean McCoy, or Demarco Murray? Of course not. He will give 110% and leave it all on the field though with some fairly productive numbers. Spiller has been misused by MARRONE and HACKETT since day one they stepped foot in the door. Look at his last season under Gailey and what has happened since. It goes back again to what I said before aout gameplanning to utilize your best players in a way to give them the opportunity to be successful. Dixon is a big boy who can get you some yards here or there and pound it between the OT's. Bryce Brown had some success in Philly, but wasn't pulled off the shelf here until Spiller and Jackson went down. He had some fumbling issues at times, but I remember watching him for the Eagles and thinking he was talented enough to be a quality RB in the NFL.

Fred is great, love Fred. Retire? Spiller. Waste of space with this OC. The others. ??

 

We need help on the OL we all agree, could definitely use an upgrade @ QB, but the rest I attribute to scheme and coaching. We have good, but not GREAT players on this offense (though I do think Watkins will be great at some point). Our coaching staff though has been mainly vanilla in their approach and I think their tactics have handcuffed what some of our players could be doing well if given the opportunity.

 

I do blame a LOT on the OC, but that was Marrone's choice and I don;t see him cutting him loose.

 

[Peter]

the value of the pick changes each year based on the players available. Cleveland was open about the fact they were set on taking Watkins and would only give up the pick for a very steep price. There were other teams interested in the pick. The players available in 2014 at the top were very different in level than 2013. A OT from central Michigan went 1st overall. It was a weak draft in 2013.

 

In my view, it is just the opposite due to supply and demand. The stronger the draft, the LESS valuable the picks at the top. This was particularly true with the WR position in the 2014 draft.

[TheFunPolice]

Forget aggressive or conservative

 

I want the Bills to be SMART and to get it right