birdog1960 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 No panic, this was their plan. Had they not traded up, they most likely would have selected Eric Ebron (whom I really wanted the Bills to pick). Eric Ebron is not lighting the field on fire even with a semi decent QB. As a Bills fan I am very content with the Watkins deal. Even with the very good year he had, he has plenty of develoment potential as most WRs do as they go into their second year. Find the Bills a more accurate passing QB and the sky is his limit. Unfortunately not having a no. 1 in the next draft looms large at this point and is a dent in this shiny deal. Let's see how they recover this off season. this is the false choice that so many whaley apologists want to make. this argument only points out how bad his judgement is. it appears that he not only got less than the best receiver available (according to chip kelly on nfl.com) but he also spent a first round draft choice in the process. there should be consequences to his career with the bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What a Tuel Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 (edited) this is the false choice that so many whaley apologists want to make. this argument only points out how bad his judgement is. it appears that he not only got less than the best receiver available (according to chip kelly on nfl.com) but he also spent a first round draft choice in the process. there should be consequences to his career with the bills. You don't know this yet. As someone else eloquently pointed out: I agree that he has been far better than Watkins. Watkins has been excellent but he seems behind the curve on some of the finer points of playing the position versus Beckham and Beckham has been more explosive(he's just simply faster). That said, Terry Glenn was far and away the best rookie WR in 1996. The guy was unbelievable as a rookie playing with a big time passer in Bledsoe. TO, Marvin Harrison and Moulds from the same class all far surpassed his long term impact. I see a potential parallel there in that OBJr was nagged by a hamstring injury that kept him off the field for months thru OTA's, camp and 4 weeks of the season. Glenn had chronic hamstring issues that shortened his career/impact. Sammy's has been nagged by injuries but he's been available and played thru them. He's also built for punishment. Time will tell but the book is far from closed on which of these guys will be better. Another thought, would this year have went any different had we not sent Stevie away/or played Mike Williams? I feel like had Stevie Johnson been on the field, our offense would have had a little more kick to it. I know, I know, old regime, new young team blah blah blah. Edited December 25, 2014 by What a Tuel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 It's funny how people rip the Bills for being too conservative but then rip them for being aggressive. Utter nonsense (again) in defense of the most consistently incompetent front office of the past 15 years. "People" rip Bills coaches for punting on 4 and 1 on the opponents side of the field, which some call "conservative" coaching ( I call it stupid). I have not heard "people" rip the Bills for being too conservative on draft day--just for selecting people who are not able to succeed in the NFL, and for pretending that the quarterback position is about as important as a long-snapper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Utter nonsense (again) in defense of the most consistently incompetent front office of the past 15 years. "People" rip Bills coaches for punting on 4 and 1 on the opponents side of the field, which some call "conservative" coaching ( I call it stupid). I have not heard "people" rip the Bills for being too conservative on draft day--just for selecting people who are not able to succeed in the NFL, and for pretending that the quarterback position is about as important as a long-snapper. Are you seriously calling the Whaley front office the most incompetant of the past 15 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 (edited) At this point Beckham and this years first > Watkins and no first this year. This year's first could have been used in multiple ways to get a better QB. It will take a couple of years to really tell if Watkins was worth it, but at this point he certainly wasn't. Not because he isn't a good player but because of the many needs the Bills have. But “at this point” is meaningless. Sammy has shown enough to display the impact he is capable of. This years first could have gotten a better QB in what way? Where the Bills will pick, there will be no obvious difference maker at the QB position to draft. Would you advocate trading a first round pick for any of the QB’s who could potentially be available (Not that I think it will take that to get a Cutler, et al.) I’m glad Whaley gambled. Bills sat back for years and played it straight and went nowhere. We’re all disappointed with the end result of no playoffs, but the team is better than it had been. And Whaley has stocked the team with a lot of talent. Edited December 25, 2014 by purple haze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Are you seriously calling the Whaley front office the most incompetant of the past 15 years? No, I am saying the Bills front office has been the most incompetent in the NFL over the past 15 years. Whaley is just the latest chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 You don't know this yet. As someone else eloquently pointed out: that the point is even debatable make the trade extremely dubious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan714 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 (edited) Panic is not the right word IMO. He took Sammy because he was going all in for 2014. Misguided might be a better word. Misguided in his belief that EJ was ready to take advantage of Watkins' talent. This I agree with. Looking at the QBs for AFC playoff teams---Brady, Mannning, Luck, Rivers, Roethlisburger, Flacco, etc., it was a foolish to think you were going to get there with the lot of EJ, Thad Lewis and Tuel. This team wasnt a Sammy Watkins away from the playoffs, we are several players away. I dont think anybody is arguing Watkins is a bust, that's a strawman arguement. The question is simply did we give up too much. I would say yes...If the all rookie team is just a starting lineup, then Sammy doesnt make the team over ODB, Evans or Benjamin. He will make a AFC all rookie team. Everybody knew this was a deep WR draft, it wasnt the year to move up to get one, it was a year to stand pat and let the draft come to you. I say this a lot in my posts, but I compare the Bills organization to the Steelers, one successful and one not successful, and try to compare what we do that they dont. To me, the Steelers dont panic and let the draft come to them. Need a QB--Big Ben, a safety-Polamalu, TE-Miller, a G-Decastro, RB-Bell, C-Pouncey, etc. You rarely seem them trade up or panic. The Bills on the other hand fall in love too much with one player and frequently over draft that player or they panic. For example I feel confident the Bills could of traded down again, got another pick and still got EJ, spare me the Eagles BS. They panic for a QB, trade extra picks for JP and miss Rodgers the next year, they think they know more than other teams and take Whitner over Ngata, and it goes on and on. Edited December 25, 2014 by billsfan714 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Are you seriously calling the Whaley front office the most incompetant of the past 15 years? it really doesn't matter where he is relative to other bills suits. it matters where he is relative to the rest of the league. this trade makes him a longshot in a field of proven thoroughbreds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 I have no problem with what DW did to get Sammy. I might in a few years but it is way too early at this point and Sammy could turn out to be great (still) ,it's an unknown right now. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Don Banks at si.com has an article regarding the 2015 coaching carousel and suggests that some think Whaley is vulnerable because of overdrafting Manuel and the cost of moving up for Watkins with Beckham available. Accountability--what a concept. Hindsight is sooooo easy. So, how should we evaluate a team's drafts if we can't use hindsight? By how we did according to Mel Kiper and Todd McShay the morning after? I still say its a damn good pick, even with giving up a 1. Not many neutral observers would agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterNextYearRight? Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Even if the Bills lost value, Watkins put up near 1000yds in a dysfunctional offense as a #1 WR as a rookie. Any other year we would be singing his praises because rookie WRs are not supposed to do that, this year was the exception. Mike Evans is the only one I'm as impressed by, wasn't sold on him pre-draft though. Sammy has the highest ceiling of any WR drafted this year, book it. And the 16th pick (think its 16th atm) was not gonna get us a QB anyways, it all comes down to whether EJ develops or not for Whaley, it's a topic that's been beaten to death but there is still a chance it happens. Kujo wasn't a panic, thought Whaley said in a conference or something that they expected him to be gone, had the highest grade left and also filled a need. However missing so far on that pick might have cost us the playoffs this year. A decent lineman or a tight end could have made just enough difference, G.Jackson or Sef-Jenkins would have made the draft a A+. P.Brown set the LB's over the edge. Richardson is good developmental depth Henderson was great in the 7th, has a pro bowl ceiling imo. If he did panic, he still had a top end draft. Better then 2/3 in the league. Whaley has earned his time, hope the Pegs see it the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Even if the Bills lost value, Watkins put up near 1000yds in a dysfunctional offense as a #1 WR as a rookie. Any other year we would be singing his praises because rookie WRs are not supposed to do that, this year was the exception. Mike Evans is the only one I'm as impressed by, wasn't sold on him pre-draft though. Sammy has the highest ceiling of any WR drafted this year, book it. And the 16th pick (think its 16th atm) was not gonna get us a QB anyways, it all comes down to whether EJ develops or not for Whaley, it's a topic that's been beaten to death but there is still a chance it happens. Kujo wasn't a panic, thought Whaley said in a conference or something that they expected him to be gone, had the highest grade left and also filled a need. However missing so far on that pick might have cost us the playoffs this year. A decent lineman or a tight end could have made just enough difference, G.Jackson or Sef-Jenkins would have made the draft a A+. P.Brown set the LB's over the edge. Richardson is good developmental depth Henderson was great in the 7th, has a pro bowl ceiling imo. If he did panic, he still had a top end draft. Better then 2/3 in the league. Whaley has earned his time, hope the Pegs see it the same way. Again, not many unbiased observers would agree with most of this. Richardson is good depth? Did you see him play? You aren't impressed by ODB? Really? What would he have to do to impress you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 (edited) No, I am saying the Bills front office has been the most incompetent in the NFL over the past 15 years. Whaley is just the latest chapter. He and Nix built the best defense in the NFL. I know we are all frustrated but try to maintain some perspective. Edited December 25, 2014 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 He and Nix built the best defense in the NFL. No, they did not. But they built a very good defense, while "building" one of the worst offenses in the NFL. It is much easier to assemble a good defense than a good offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 No, they did not. But they built a very good defense, while "building" one of the worst offenses in the NFL. It is much easier to assemble a good defense than a good offense. We get your point. Bills FO sucks. Move along now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Linen Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 If you end up with a player like Sammy every other year you will be an outstanding GM and build a fantastic team. I would give up a first rounder every other year in a heartbeat if they were all Sammy Watkins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jahnyc Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 We will need more years to be able to fully evaluate the trade up for Watkins, but at this point (and it is very early), it was not a wise move. We would be drafting in the middle of the first round this year, and you would hope that the Bills would have drafted a blue or red chip player. A decent QB available may not be available with that pick, but that does not significantly reduce the overall value of the pick, which could have resulted in a top tier prospect. The other aspect of the trade that must be considered is that Whaley would not give up the second round pick in last year's draft, which turned out to be CK. If this is true, you can argue that Whaley gave up a first this year, and drafted a bust last year (in a very strong draft by all accounts), meaning that the Bills missed on the opportunity to have two top tier talents on the team. That is the kind of thing that ends up hurting a team badly in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfk Posted December 25, 2014 Author Share Posted December 25, 2014 Panic is not the right word IMO. He took Sammy because he was going all in for 2014. Misguided might be a better word. Misguided in his belief that EJ was ready to take advantage of Watkins' talent. I guess thats my point ...Whaley seems prudent and has had success getting players here... Its clear he wanted to make a splash during this ownership thing but i think (with hindsight) he should stuck to the picks he had...Trade Sammy for a first rounder.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Again, not many unbiased observers would agree with most of this. it is truly shameless bias. makes you wonder about "astroturf" obd planted posters here except that no one is on the pay clock Christmas day. regardless, it's the type complacency that perpetuates 15 non playoff seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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