Article: Why OL is bigger issue than Hackett/QB

[C.Biscuit97]

You harp on this regression narrative.

 

And you ignore the truth. But if 95% of players are regressing, there's no way it could be a coaching problem.

[reddogblitz]

Orton blows. The OLine is awful.

 

If we agree on these things we're in no position to evaluate the job our OC is doing, IMO.

 

Speak for yourself Big Cat. I understand that you must defense Marrone and his toady with all your might.

 

But just because our line is bad (oddly the same OLine minus Levitre was serviceable under that last regime) and our QB is not very good, that gives the coaching staff a pass? The coaching staffs job is to make the team perform and part of that is making what you got work.

 

If the same line sans Levitre had been a hot mess like the current line, I might agree with you. However, that is just not the case.

[The Big Cat]

 

 

Speak for yourself Big Cat. I understand that you must defense Marrone and his toady with all your might.

 

But just because our line is bad (oddly the same OLine minus Levitre was serviceable under that last regime) and our QB is not very good, that gives the coaching staff a pass? The coaching staffs job is to make the team perform and part of that is making what you got work.

 

If the same line sans Levitre had been a hot mess like the current line, I might agree with you. However, that is just not the case.

 

Firstly, it's not the same line.

 

Secondly, feel free to search the archives for when I and many others observed how Fitz's style did a lot to hide the OLine's deficiencies.

 

Finally, the prior regime was here for 48 games, and posts like yours show me that way too many fans seem only to recall the first six of 2011, and conveniently graft them into three years worth of BLEH. Those six games were a statistical blip. Over the course of the other 42, the offense was damn near identical to the one run by a guy who has lived fewer years than Gailey has coached.

[JC2002]

Do you have a link? Orton averages 6.7 ypa this year. He averages 6.6 for his career. The olne hs not been perfect but there's been plenty of times when Orton has time and chooses to dump the ball off.

 

Blaming the oline is such a cop out and is ignoring the real problems. The OC and QB aren't good enough.

 

In a good passing offense with a decent line he averaged well over 7 ypa

 

Our offense sucked before Orton got here

 

[Augie]

Watching USC Gamecock OG Cann (#50) mentioned in the article as a possible draft choice. Not in any way an endorement or a scouting report (I've seen him give up some QB hits and I'd never heard of him before today), but it's refreshing to see a guard who can pull and get down field. Giants who can't anchor, pull or get down field remove a lot of options on offense.

[San-O]

Watching USC Gamecock OG Cann (#50) mentioned in the article as a possible draft choice. Not in any way an endorement or a scouting report (I've seen him give up some QB hits and I'd never heard of him before today), but it's refreshing to see a guard who can pull and get down field. Giants who can't anchor, pull or get down field remove a lot of options on offense.

 

Yet I've read the Bills have or had the biggest O-lie in the league?

[NewEra]

 

 

Firstly, it's not the same line.

 

Secondly, feel free to search the archives for when I and many others observed how Fitz's style did a lot to hide the OLine's deficiencies.

 

Finally, the prior regime was here for 48 games, and posts like yours show me that way too many fans seem only to recall the first six of 2011, and conveniently graft them into three years worth of BLEH. Those six games were a statistical blip. Over the course of the other 42, the offense was damn near identical to the one run by a guy who has lived fewer years than Gailey has coached.

 

Fitz's "style" was also a product of play calling and the gameplan put together by the offensive coordinator/man in charge of the offense.

 

Finally, the bills were 13th in yards per play 2 years running prior to Marrone and Hackett. Now we're 29th 2 years running under Marrone. But I'm sure it's ALL because of the OL and QB and has nothing to do with the men putting the game plan together.

 

All of your posts that I read completely defend Hackett and our offensive game planning. That's fine, that's the way you see it. No problem there, although I see it differently. The thing I'm not sure regarding your feelings about the subject: do you think Hackett is a good Nfl OC? Yes or no?

 

[The Big Cat]

 

 

Fitz's "style" was also a product of play calling and the gameplan put together by the offensive coordinator/man in charge of the offense.

 

Finally, the bills were 13th in yards per play 2 years running prior to Marrone and Hackett. Now we're 29th 2 years running under Marrone. But I'm sure it's ALL because of the OL and QB and has nothing to do with the men putting the game plan together.

 

All of your posts that I read completely defend Hackett and our offensive game planning. That's fine, that's the way you see it. No problem there, although I see it differently. The thing I'm not sure regarding your feelings about the subject: do you think Hackett is a good Nfl OC? Yes or no?

 

It's not that simple. We have the youngest WR duo in the NFL. We have a QB who's average on a good day, a stable of forgettable RB's, an OLine that needs (at least) a 50% overhaul and Scott Chandler, you know, 2013's leading receiver, a man who's entirely anonymous in three mainland time zones.

 

I know that Chan Gailey was Christ incarnate for making the self-described Goon Squad resemble a professional offense. Whoopity ****. He got them to zero.

 

Nate Hackett isn't Chan Gailey, and two years ago he would have received Western New York's man of the year for that fact alone (how soon we forget).

 

Until we have some COMPETENT play from a unit in transition, nobody outside the film room and outside the huddle has any clue what kind of job our OC is doing.

[NewEra]

 

 

It's not that simple. We have the youngest WR duo in the NFL. We have a QB who's average on a good day, a stable of forgettable RB's, an OLine that needs (at least) a 50% overhaul and Scott Chandler, you know, 2013's leading receiver, a man who's entirely anonymous in three mainland time zones.

 

I know that Chan Gailey was Christ incarnate for making the self-described Goon Squad resemble a professional offense. Whoopity ****. He got them to zero.

 

Nate Hackett isn't Chan Gailey, and two years ago he would have received Western New York's man of the year for that fact alone (how soon we forget).

 

Until we have some COMPETENT play from a unit in transition, nobody outside the film room and outside the huddle has any clue what kind of job our OC is doing.

So you just hate on people for having their opinion. Got it

[The Big Cat]

 

So you just hate on people for having their opinion. Got it

 

That's a one helluva conclusion.

[thewildrabbit]

The Buffalo Bills have been in the top 10 worst offense for two years now, and I honestly can't logically understand why a Bills fan would keep defending the offensive coaches.

 

The team is about to set a franchise record for fewest rushing yards in a season, and that comes after this same regime being the #2 rushing team in the league last year, and the #1 team in attempts. Was it because they garnered the nickname "hurry up and punt offense"? Perhaps they realized that all that running up the middle 71% of the time did nothing to actually win games.

 

New flash, in 2013 the Bills were 25th in three downs and out percentage, and this year with a veteran QB instead of three rookie QB's they are 27th. This year they are 25th in third down conversion. The 2014 Buffalo Bills are 31st in scoring TD's in the red zone.

 

It really makes me question as to why any Buffalo Bills fan would continue to defend known offensive coaching ineptitude. This would be like fans posting over and over to keep 2010 Bills DC George Edwards a 3rd season or Dave Wannstedt for another year. We all saw what marginal coaching talent did for the defense did for the Bills in 2013, and what really good coaching talent did for the Bills defense this season.

[BADOLBILZ]

It's not that simple. We have the youngest WR duo in the NFL. We have a QB who's average on a good day, a stable of forgettable RB's, an OLine that needs (at least) a 50% overhaul and Scott Chandler, you know, 2013's leading receiver, a man who's entirely anonymous in three mainland time zones.

 

I know that Chan Gailey was Christ incarnate for making the self-described Goon Squad resemble a professional offense. Whoopity ****. He got them to zero.

 

Nate Hackett isn't Chan Gailey, and two years ago he would have received Western New York's man of the year for that fact alone (how soon we forget).

 

Until we have some COMPETENT play from a unit in transition, nobody outside the film room and outside the huddle has any clue what kind of job our OC is doing.

 

Gailey is just an example of the difference between a good offensive coach and a poor one.

 

Hackett may improve.....but Gailey was a guy who made a career of getting good results from the Tomczak/Stewart combo, a washed up Troy Aikman and Jay Fiedler.

 

Gailey was a lousy head coach...not a good leader...but he was a guy who could raise the level of an offense.

 

Excusing Hackett for having two young WR is a joke when those two are Robert Woods and Sammy Watkins. Gailey's first WR corps was even greener and with a far lower pedigree.

 

And also remember, Gailey inherited what was just the year before the LEAST EXPERIENCED OFFENSIVE LINE to start a game in NFL history.....so those guys were still really green.

 

Then they patched in the rest of their offense with waiver wire pickups like Chandler, Urbik and Pears. INEXPERIENCED players other teams didn't want.

 

Gailey is not a HOF offensive mind but he is an example of the fact that it's very possible to get more from less with good coaching.

 

Watching what Hackett and Marrone have done this year has been painful.

 

Their offense has no rhythm. They do not attack, which puts their unathletic blockers on their heels. They kill drives with ridiculous playcalls.....like calling a delay draw to Boobie Dixon on first down, which they did to dreadful results on multiple occasions in key games. They design far too many plays that put bad players like Lee Smith on the field.....and into pass routes.

 

It just is what it is.....Hackett coaches like he doesn't know how the defense is going to attack his offense. It's one thing when good defenses make plays to beat your good design. This offense has beaten itself with poor design. They run themselves into stops.

 

Now if we are taking the route they took with Danny Crossman.......give me top 2-3 ST talent and I'll give you a top 15 ST unit......then I think Marrone and Hackett can probably repeat that kind of success offensively. That's not good enough.

[The Big Cat]

 

 

Gailey is just an example of the difference between a good offensive coach and a poor one.

 

Hackett may improve.....but Gailey was a guy who made a career of getting good results from the Tomczak/Stewart combo, a washed up Troy Aikman and Jay Fiedler.

 

Gailey was a lousy head coach...not a good leader...but he was a guy who could raise the level of an offense.

 

Excusing Hackett for having two young WR is a joke when those two are Robert Woods and Sammy Watkins. Gailey's first WR corps was even greener and with a far lower pedigree.

 

And also remember, Gailey inherited what was just the year before the LEAST EXPERIENCED OFFENSIVE LINE to start a game in NFL history.....so those guys were still really green.

 

Then they patched in the rest of their offense with waiver wire pickups like Chandler, Urbik and Pears. INEXPERIENCED players other teams didn't want.

 

Gailey is not a HOF offensive mind but he is an example of the fact that it's very possible to get more from less with good coaching.

 

Watching what Hackett and Marrone have done this year has been painful.

 

Their offense has no rhythm. They do not attack, which puts their unathletic blockers on their heels. They kill drives with ridiculous playcalls.....like calling a delay draw to Boobie Dixon on first down, which they did to dreadful results on multiple occasions in key games. They design far too many plays that put bad players like Lee Smith on the field.....and into pass routes.

 

It just is what it is.....Hackett coaches like he doesn't know how the defense is going to attack his offense. It's one thing when good defenses make plays to beat your good design. This offense has beaten itself with poor design. They run themselves into stops.

 

Now if we are taking the route they took with Danny Crossman.......give me top 2-3 ST talent and I'll give you a top 15 ST unit......then I think Marrone and Hackett can probably repeat that kind of success offensively. That's not good enough.

 

Lost in all of this is the exceedingly MEDIOCRE results Gailey produced. And that was my whole point. We've coronated the guy retroactively. If I were to search through the archives to find your 2012 opinion on Gailey's scheme, how approving would it be?

 

Bills fans just want to fire the playcaller, and since 2006, they've gotten their wish, what? Five times? Then what happens? The same rag tag results with the same RAG TAG talent.

[The Dean]

r.

 

Gailey was a lousy head coach...not a good leader...but he was a guy who could raise the level of an offense.

 

Excusing Hackett for having two young WR is a joke when those two are Robert Woods and Sammy Watkins. Gailey's first WR corps was even greener and with a far lower pedigree.

 

And also remember, Gailey inherited what was just the year before the LEAST EXPERIENCED OFFENSIVE LINE to start a game in NFL history.....so those guys were still really green.

 

Then they patched in the rest of their offense with waiver wire pickups like Chandler, Urbik and Pears. INEXPERIENCED players other teams didn't want.

 

Gailey is not a HOF offensive mind but he is an example of the fact that it's very possible to get more from less with good coaching.

 

When Chan was the HC the offense was pretty good--with the exception of Red Zone production. The plays were creative. You didn't know what play was going to be run simply based on down, distance or personnel. I actually think Chan would be an improvement as OC for this team, in some respects.

[Augie]

 

 

Yet I've read the Bills have or had the biggest O-lie in the league?

The really sad part is that while our "monsters" can't get out and run, they can't push the pile or even anchor either. What a mess.

[boyst]

If he needs more time to properly coach OL I would be all for him getting an OL coach job somewhere. I think North Carolina Ag & Tech has an opening.

I think you'd be wrong. A&T has been pretty damn good for a while now. A&T is known for their OL, fwiw. They've done very well in the MEAC.

[NewEra]

 

 

That's a one helluva conclusion.

 

Well, you basically said that no one can say if Hackett is good or bad because our QB sucks, our OL needs to be upgraded, our RBs are forgettable and we have the youngest WRs I'm the nfl. Yet, you continue to bash people who say Hackett needs to be replaced.....what conclusion shall I draw? It's the same schtick every time someone says they want Hackett out. "Our QB sucks. Our OL sucks". Yes, we know. We also think Hackett sucks. And we have reasons to support our feelings. It's a message board, people vent. You're not going to change anyone's mind regarding Hackett. Until our offense doesn't suck, we need to try and get an OC that can make it not suck. Just like we need to find a QB and an OL that doesn't suck. If its broke, fix it. You like hacketts play calling. Most everyone else hates hacketts play calling. People will hate on Hackett because our offense sucks. Deal with it. Why? Because you have no choice and continue to waste countless hours of your life on your crusade. Pretty sad. Fo sho

[The Big Cat]

 

 

Well, you basically said that no one can say if Hackett is good or bad because our QB sucks, our OL needs to be upgraded, our RBs are forgettable and we have the youngest WRs I'm the nfl. Yet, you continue to bash people who say Hackett needs to be replaced.....what conclusion shall I draw? It's the same schtick every time someone says they want Hackett out. "Our QB sucks. Our OL sucks". Yes, we know. We also think Hackett sucks. And we have reasons to support our feelings. It's a message board, people vent. You're not going to change anyone's mind regarding Hackett. Until our offense doesn't suck, we need to try and get an OC that can make it not suck. Just like we need to find a QB and an OL that doesn't suck. If its broke, fix it. You like hacketts play calling. Most everyone else hates hacketts play calling. People will hate on Hackett because our offense sucks. Deal with it. Why? Because you have no choice and continue to waste countless hours of your life on your crusade. Pretty sad. Fo sho

 

You're right. This place would be much more entertaining if we all just got out of your way.

[NewEra]

 

 

Lost in all of this is the exceedingly MEDIOCRE results Gailey produced. And that was my whole point. We've coronated the guy retroactively. If I were to search through the archives to find your 2012 opinion on Gailey's scheme, how approving would it be?

 

Bills fans just want to fire the playcaller, and since 2006, they've gotten their wish, what? Five times? Then what happens? The same rag tag results with the same RAG TAG talent.

 

I'm the archives....I didn't like chan as a HC. I didn't hate him, but I thought we needed an upgrade. I DID like his play calling and I thought our offense was halfway exciting, even though I hated our QB that couldn't throw the ball beyond 15 yards. I would've liked to bring him back as our OC, but also understand that it doesn't work that way. Head coaches don't get demoted. They get fired. Chan biggest problem was that he was clueless in his hiring of defensive coordinators. It ended his tenure as HC IMO.

[John Adams]

I agree with this. Orton is objectively bad. But the weaknesses of the interior line have severely limited what they are able to do on offense. This is the SECOND YEAR IN A ROW that Whaley and Marrone went into the season with ZERO capable guards. In a normal business, heads would roll for that type of negligence. I'm pissed.

 

Orton with no line and no running game has almost 3000 yards passing in 11 games...17 TDs and 10 INTs. 64%

 

He's not a world beater but to lay the blame for the offiense on him is not fair. They had zero running game and no line at all. Oh...and no coordinator.

 

Marrone is an offensive guy. How's that side of the team doing?

Edited December 28, 2014 by John Adams