Article: Why OL is bigger issue than Hackett/QB

[DC Tom]

The trend is most young players improve in their second year...let's hope & pray. The bigger question is, is it the student or the teacher, IMO. Marrone and staff has done nothing to show that they have a clue as to how to scheme an NFL offense.

 

There's a flaw or key in the scheme that's tipping the opposing defense. I've never seen a defense so ready for our screens, misdirections or play actions plays. I think its time to go back to the drawing board Team Marrone & Co.

 

That's the key point. I'm not sold on all the OL starters, and certainly think there's room for upgrade...but when I see the sort of regression in truly quality players like Glenn and Wood that we've seen this year, I've got to believe that personnel is only part of the problem.

 

Frankly, while I think a good offensive coaching staff might make this line work, I don't think any level of talent on the OL is going to compensate for Hackett and Morris.

[reddogblitz]

Both Pears, and Urbik were barely serviceable as pass blockers, and always stunk at run blocking. In fact the entire line stinks at run blocking. It might have something to do with Buddy Nix and his moronic thinking that bigger is always better.

 

Now hold one one minute.

 

Urbick, Pears, Wood, and Glenn were ALL on Coach Gailey's line and that was, while not a great line, at least serviceable. CJ was able to run for 1200yards behind that line. What changed?

 

I don't trust Hackett Jr./Marrone to be able to fix it even with more talent. Hopefully I don't have to find out.

Edited December 24, 2014 by reddogblitz

[3rdand12]

I'm pretty sure it was Wood who got pushed back on that play.

It was.

Urbik looked bad for other reasons : (

 

So i have been reading all this , and i see some folks can pare this down.

I have been watching the Oline closely ( i am no football guru whatsever lol )

But It even for me its been easy to see that nearly ALL the issue on Offense are based on the Oline playing poorly as a unit.

 

Pat Morris. I cant stress this enough.

We can work upstream after that but I thnk its starts right there.

I feel it has affected play calling and route running and the play of the QB. Both of them.

I think his head should be the first to roll.

I am surprised though. I felt his hire would be decent enough. Even though i was seriously butt hut hurt about my boy Joey D being canned .

But i have been on a witch hunt for weeks after Pat Morris watching this line miss blocks and execute poorly. while looking lost and defeated.

Except Henderson. He is a bright spot all considered. Every other player has sucked or regressed or both

 

Now hold one one minute.

 

Urbick, Pears, Wood, and Glenn were ALL on Coach Gailey's line and that was, while not a great line, at least serviceable. CJ was able to run for 1200yards behind that line. What changed?

 

I don't trust Hackett Jr./Marrone to be able to fix it even with more talent. Hopefully I don't have to find out.

Dig deeper. Its gotta be on coaching in the end though.

I was hpoing they would "gel" at some point.

but hardly.

great topic for discussion

[Buffalo Barbarian]

@RQUINN619: #Bills Must Prioritize OL Over QB in 2015 Offseason (vines&adv stats) http://t.co/GaNgzGvrYH via @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/bVOGmaE7Cd

 

Good read. A lot of research.

 

plus the good good QBs will be gone

[thewildrabbit]

Now hold one one minute.

 

Urbick, Pears, Wood, and Glenn were ALL on Coach Gailey's line and that was, while not a great line, at least serviceable. CJ was able to run for 1200yards behind that line. What changed?

 

I don't trust Hackett Jr./Marrone to be able to fix it even with more talent. Hopefully I don't have to find out.

The coaching changed and the smoke and mirrors left town.

 

Chan Gailey kept Fitz as his QB for a real reason, and he didn't want a rookie. The reason being in that Fitz can get rid of the ball to the open receiver in 2.2 seconds, and that's faster then Manning and his 2.5 second release. Then Chan would utilize and actual spread offensive line in which there was a gap between the linemen, and this enabled Spiller to make big plays in the run game out of the shotgun when everyone was expecting a pass.

 

If you notice in Hackett's spread offense the linemen are bunched tightly all together on the line as in a power zone blocking scheme.

 

The thing is Gailey's offensive scheme stopped working when opposing teams figured out that Fitz couldn't throw deep accurately, and jammed the receivers at the line. Then they were ready for Spiller to make his runs out of the passing shotgun spread offense. He was still a force in Gaileys spread offense even when defenses were expecting him.

 

Basically the same players on the O line, and the coaching changed for the worse all around. Despite what Marrone says O line continuity means a lot as each player needs to depend on the player next to him to do his job properly. When one player fails it makes the other players look bad as they try and compensate.

[CSBill]

The article just confirms the eye-ball test we have seen all year. But I still can't getaway from the fact this was a decent group in previous years, and that not one of the new people has truly been an upgrade. So what does that tell us? Either the coaching or scheme isn't good, period.

 

Yes, keep looking for better players via the draft or free agency. But more importantly, new coaching.

[Augie]

Plus Urbik is horrible. They need at least 2 guards in the offseason

 

Talent > scheme imo

Urbik was horrible, and he was an UPGRADE!

[thewildrabbit]

Urbik was horrible, and he was an UPGRADE!

So true, and hilarious... if it weren't the team i want to win the SB.

 

The entire offensive side of the team needs to be replaced, coaches and that means the scouts too. Look at who Whaley would have drafted if he hadn't been able to trade up for Sammy Watkins. Eric Ebron #1 & Cyrus Kouandjio #2

 

Of the three linemen they draft the #7 pick becomes the starter. The O line regressed, the run game regressed, and the offense got worse with a veteran QB over the three rookie QB's of last year

[The Dean]

Common wisdom is that guards are easily replaceable.

 

That's why it took 7 years to find a competent replacement for Ruben Brown, and we're onto year 3 of fielding Levitre's replacement.

 

Not just common wisdom. Look at the relative draft position of guards to other positions on an NFL team. Look at their comparative salaries.

 

That's not to say ELITE guards aren't hard to find---they are. But serviceable guards shouldn't be that elusive---particularly if you make them a priority. And improving on the the current guard situation, shouldn't be the impossible task some make it out to me. Also, as has been mentioned, a bit of coaching (and in a couple cases a bit more experience) should make some difference.

 

Take a look around the league. Guards go down on good OLs all the time. Do their lines fall apart totally? Not usually. In some respect guards are meat. One goes off the field and another one takes his place. In a good offense, a well coached line can survive the loss of a player or two. Happens every year. It isn't like losing a QB.

 

I'm not saying I expect the FO to get two Pro Bowl level guards on this team by next year. I am saying I fully expect this line to be better constructed, with more depth. Anything less than that will constitute a major fail, as this is one of the few major priorities this offseason. In past years it has been one of a number of issues.

[xsoldier54]

 

 

It is the play calling that has ruined the rushing attack. Instead of just pounding the ball against weak run defenses he repeatedly calls almost exclusively pass plays. Hard for the run game to succeed when he won't even use it against even the worst run defenses. No mystery here, it's Hacket and his idiotic play calling.

Edited December 24, 2014 by xsoldier54

[NewEra]

Thanks Yolo. I agree and have been saying a lot of the same things. I am still amazed that I can read that whole article and every reply on this post and still not see the name PAT MORRIS anywhere!!!! I could have missed it, but it's not everywhere like it should be. It is his job as the immediate supervisor of the position to teach technique and fundamentals, and quite frankly our lineman suck at this. Not sure who's idea it was to shift everybody around and to the left, but that was just plain messed up.

 

This. Morris should be held accountable for this as well. It's his group of guys and all of them have performed poorly. I'd go so far as saying I don't want Glenn resigned if this is his ceiling. His play has regressed this season. Morris's fault? Marrones? The guy playing next to Glenn? Accountability needs to be addressed

[The Big Cat]

I'll challenge this regression this theory with the possibility that opponents expose player weaknesses and that may be--just may be--some of our players are more flawed than we want to admit.

[NewEra]

I'll challenge this regression this theory with the possibility that opponents expose player weaknesses and that may be--just may be--some of our players are more flawed than we want to admit.

 

Or maybe--- some good coaches have the ability to coach players up. Some don't. Some coaches know how to coach around players' disadvantages on the field. Some don't.

 

Our QB sucks. Our OL sucks. Yes. We know that already. Most of us know our offensive coaching sucks too. Some of us are in denial.

[Don Beebe]

@RQUINN619: #Bills Must Prioritize OL Over QB in 2015 Offseason (vines&adv stats) http://t.co/GaNgzGvrYH via @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/bVOGmaE7Cd

 

Good read. A lot of research.

Good article, I agree our offensive line sucks. They tried hard to fix it last year but it didn't work out. There is no doubt in my mind that is why we did not make the playoffs.

[The Big Cat]

Or maybe--- some good coaches have the ability to coach players up. Some don't. Some coaches know how to coach around players' disadvantages on the field. Some don't.

 

Our QB sucks. Our OL sucks. Yes. We know that already. Most of us know our offensive coaching sucks too. Some of us are in denial.

 

So a new OLine coach and two new guards fixes everything.

 

I can agree to that, mostly.

[NewEra]

 

 

So a new OLine coach and two new guards fixes everything.

 

I can agree to that, mostly.

 

A new OL coach would most likely help. 2 new guards would definitely help.

A new OC would most likely help as well. 13th in the league in yards per play 2 years in a row the 2 previous years before Hackett. 29th in the league Hacketts 2 years as OC. The talent level on the OL hasn't regressed THAT much.

[vincec]

Apparently you missed the last game against the Raiders in which Urbik was shoved five yards into the Bills backfield with Raiders D lineman Antonio Smith draped all over him to make the tackle on Spiller five yards behind the line of scrimmage. Then even if Spiller had managed to elude that tackle there were two other Raiders ready to jump on him before he even got back to the line of scrimmage.

 

On that particular play it was seven Bills on five Raiders, and the Bills lost. That is the trouble for the entire line this year, as they all stink. The O line coach should be fired. The Bills OC should be fired, and the guy who is coaching the entire offensive mess should be fired, and now I'm wondering if Whaley shouldn't go right along with them all.

Woods and Glenn got their butts kicked too. Cut them as well?

 

I agree with you about the OL coach, even though I really think the problem lies with Hackett. He seems to be learning on the job to me and that's not good.

Edited December 24, 2014 by vincec

[The Dean]

Woods and Glenn got their butts kicked too. Cut them as well?

 

I agree with you about the OL coach, even though I really think the problem lies with Hackett. He seems to be learning on the job to me and that's not good.

 

Actually, if he actually learning, that isn't so bad. Every great coach learns on the job, to some extent. The question remains: Is he learning quickly enough and is he capable of learning enough, soon enough, for this team to win?

 

Obviously it is a combo of bad play, bad scheme and bad coaching. At least it seems obvious to me.

[Bocephuz]

This is a fantastic analysis. It's really a shame it isn't the only positional issue that needs to be addressed, but I agree wholly that too much blame has been placed on Orton and Hackett than our OL. I'm not defending Orton or Hackett by saying this, but we would have seen much greater production from this offense with a proper OL.

 

Granted, we have a lot of unproven rookie linemen that may/may not pan out next year or in the years to come. The Williams move in the offseason left everyone wondering exactly what our front office saw in him and our doubts were realized early on. I appreciate this analysis most since it paints our OL's issues in the context of our entire offense - every aspect of the team suffers with a weak OL. If we can focus on signing 2-3 OL in free agency, at least two guards and maybe another tackle depending on how we use Pears and Henderson. Hopefully we get lucky in this draft and a solid OL talent drops to the 2nd round, but I'm not sure how deep the field is this year.

 

I'd love to see this team go after amplifying our OL first and foremost. Resign the necessary defensive/offensive talent (Hughes, Spikes, Searcy, Wynn, Hogan, Bryant, Thigpen - in no particular order) and then address our QB failings. With a better OL we would see a lot of "issues" from this season alleviated. Not necessarily cured, but manageable to allow consistent wins.

Completely agree that addressing OLine issues should be priority one. Look no farther for evidence than the example of our pass rush making Rodgers and Manning look bad. Hopefully whoever is in charge next year has a clear vision for the type of linemen/style of play they want. My hope is that we go back to the power running game

[thewildrabbit]

Woods and Glenn got their butts kicked too. Cut them as well?

 

I agree with you about the OL coach, even though I really think the problem lies with Hackett. He seems to be learning on the job to me and that's not good.

I agree hackett is a huge problem with the offense. Both Glenn and Woods are clearly head and shoulders above Pears, Urbik. The problem is that they both play right next to Woods which hurts him, and Urbik is next to Glenn which hurts him. Both the decent players need to worry about doing their jobs and also helping the scrubs do theirs.

 

Care to know why Dick Jauron drafted Eric Woods with a #1 pick, and Andy Levitre with a #2 in 2009? Because in 2008 he saw the Jets D lineman Kris Jenkins try and be triple teamed by the Bills center, and both OG's on one play and he still was able to plow right through and sack the QB. Things haven't gotten better with the OG situation, but they have with the OC position.

 

If the Bills had two quality OG's it would help everyone playing on the line, and suddenly both Woods, and Glenn would look significantly better then they currently look.

 

I'm pretty sure it was Wood who got pushed back on that play.

It was #60 no two ways about it.

 

Trying to figure out how to post a gif of that -4 yard play that caused a 2nd and 4 to go to a 3rd and 8, and the next play was an INT because Orton looked like he got hit as he threw. Both Raider DE's were about to have an Orton sandwhich. I'm just amazed that Orton has survived the season so far.