Article: Why OL is bigger issue than Hackett/QB

[Kellyto83TD]

@RQUINN619: #Bills Must Prioritize OL Over QB in 2015 Offseason (vines&adv stats) http://t.co/GaNgzGvrYH via @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/bVOGmaE7Cd

 

Good read. A lot of research.

 

Alot of stupidity is what it is. Bottom line we can have the best OL in the NFL we still have no QB which = No playoffs. At some point all this Bull **** needs to stop and this team finally find Jim Kelly's replacement. They have failed to do so since 1996 and until they do, this team sucks

[PolishDave]

Alot of stupidity is what it is. Bottom line we can have the best OL in the NFL we still have no QB which = No playoffs. At some point all this Bull **** needs to stop and this team finally find Jim Kelly's replacement. They have failed to do so since 1996 and until they do, this team sucks

Don't you get sick of saying this? Everyone knows that we need a franchise quarterback who is above average. It is not really a question.

 

The question is .."How do you put yourself in the best position to win games right now while you keep trying to find an above average quarterback in the draft?"

[hondo in seattle]

@RQUINN619: #Bills Must Prioritize OL Over QB in 2015 Offseason (vines&adv stats) http://t.co/GaNgzGvrYH via @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/bVOGmaE7Cd

 

Good read. A lot of research.

 

Thanks for the link. This was a great article with some good insight on how the OL play impacted the offense and play calling. The old truism, "Games are won and lost in the trenches" is still valid. We excelled in the D trenches with 3 of 4 players making the Pro Bowl. We were horrid in the offensive trenches with just two players with above-average grades and others near the worst at their position.

[billsfan714]

Good article, it gives a deeper understanding to what your eyes were seeing all year. Seems a lot easier to take the next step to the playoffs by improving the line rather than pipe dreaming about some quarterback. Im all for drafting another one this year, I just wouldnt expect him to step in and improve over what we did. If you take Orton's numbers and take them out over 16 games you would get 4100 yards passing 24 tds and 15 ints. I dont think there's anbody we can realistically get who is going to do better than that. With improved line play could Orton get to 30tds....maybe. With improved line play could we rush for more TDs than we did, without question. That should translate to more wins and the playoffs. I agree with other posters, the OL coach has got to go.

Edited December 24, 2014 by billsfan714

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

@RQUINN619: #Bills Must Prioritize OL Over QB in 2015 Offseason (vines&adv stats) http://t.co/GaNgzGvrYH via @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/bVOGmaE7Cd

 

Good read. A lot of research.

Thanks Yolo. I agree and have been saying a lot of the same things. I am still amazed that I can read that whole article and every reply on this post and still not see the name PAT MORRIS anywhere!!!! I could have missed it, but it's not everywhere like it should be. It is his job as the immediate supervisor of the position to teach technique and fundamentals, and quite frankly our lineman suck at this. Not sure who's idea it was to shift everybody around and to the left, but that was just plain messed up.

[hondo in seattle]

The OL has not played well, but why is everyone's play deteriorating with Marrone and Hackett in charge? Glenn, Wood, Pears all had the worst seasons of their careers. I wonder how much of the OL struggles result from poor scheme and coaching.

 

This is an interesting point. When Marrone was named the HC of the Bills, I remember hearing good things from NO about the work Marrone did with the OL. I thought it was curious at the time because Marrone was the OC for the Saints and I didn't note anyone praising his OC skills with Sean Payton running the show. It seemed that as OC, Marrone was really a glorified OL coach but at least he was good at that.

 

Yet our OL sucks and players seem to be regressing.

[The Big Cat]

So which posters want to recant their accusations against Marrone that he's a vindictive curmudgeon...and THAT'S why Urbrik wasn't playing.?

[The Dean]

And who would do that?

 

They drafted 3 OLs last year and signed a high profile FA last off season.

 

How confident are we that they'll hit the jackpot this year?

 

Not sure why people think Guard (of all positions) could be a blind spot for this FO. With a list of holes and priorities this was one of three they failed to fix in the offseason. QB and TE are the other two, and I'm not sure QB is a hole you just "fix" in an offseason. TE isn't as bad as it could be, but I still think it needs work. With the OL they made a bad decision or two, and misjudged a player or two. But even with Colin Brown and Urbik at G and Pears at RT this team could still run last year. I'm not sure anyone could have predicted this years' unit would be worse than that one. But it is.

 

So, judging by this FO's short history of improving the D and WR (and even getting depth at RB) I have to trust they can fix the G situation. It has to be the biggest priority this offseason. Maybe I'm mistaken but "hitting the jackpot" as you put it, shouldn't be that hard if you consider A. It's guards were talking about here (not a position where you need rare physical talent) and B. Given the current situation it shouldn't be too hard to improve on what we have.

[thewildrabbit]

I agree with the personnel group on Urbik. I think that he can adequately man one of the guard positions if they can find a strong player at the other one. At the very least, he's a better than average backup so the idea that the Bills would trade him when OL is the worst position on the team is ludicrous IMO.

 

The obvious conservative off season plan for OL:

 

Do not re-sign Pears.

Sign a here-to-date average FA guard with upside potential.

Draft another RT/OG prospect at #2 or #3.

Hope that Henderson, Richardson and Kouandjio develop.

Give Chris Williams one last chance to show improvement and stay healthy.

Replace OL coach.

 

At least that would be my plan.

Apparently you missed the last game against the Raiders in which Urbik was shoved five yards into the Bills backfield with Raiders D lineman Antonio Smith draped all over him to make the tackle on Spiller five yards behind the line of scrimmage. Then even if Spiller had managed to elude that tackle there were two other Raiders ready to jump on him before he even got back to the line of scrimmage.

 

On that particular play it was seven Bills on five Raiders, and the Bills lost. That is the trouble for the entire line this year, as they all stink. The O line coach should be fired. The Bills OC should be fired, and the guy who is coaching the entire offensive mess should be fired, and now I'm wondering if Whaley shouldn't go right along with them all.

[GG]

So, judging by this FO's short history of improving the D and WR (and even getting depth at RB) I have to trust they can fix the G situation. It has to be the biggest priority this offseason. Maybe I'm mistaken but "hitting the jackpot" as you put it, shouldn't be that hard if you consider A. It's guards were talking about here (not a position where you need rare physical talent) and B. Given the current situation it shouldn't be too hard to improve on what we have.

 

Common wisdom is that guards are easily replaceable.

 

That's why it took 7 years to find a competent replacement for Ruben Brown, and we're onto year 3 of fielding Levitre's replacement.

[thewildrabbit]

It's a lot easier to fix the guard postion than the qb position. With the latter, you have to get lucky.

 

I don't get the idea of moving Glenn to guard, btw, although it's brought up a lot. He's an objectively solid-to-good LT, and it's the most important position on the line. The Bills have had loads of bad LTs over the years, and Henderson's performance this year doesn't inspire confidence that he'll be an improvement over Glenn at all.

 

Also: great piece, Yolo. Thanks for posting.

You would think its an easy task to replace an offensive guard, as Buddy Nix thought they were a dime a dozen, that any tackle can be moved to OG with instant success. That you can always draft OG's in the later rounds as they are the easiest position on the team to fill. Yet, now its going to be three years, and still counting for a decent replacement for Levitre.

 

The reality is its a whole hell off a lot easier to draft a top OG then it is to find a franchise QB. But first you might need to actually use an early pick on a guard. Like following the Cowboys lead with a #16 first round pick in Zack Martin at OG. (who made the pro bowl as a rookie) Or like the Browns with a #2 draft pick in Joel Bitonio for OG.

[Solomon Grundy]

They tried but failed. They needed the two rookies--especially Kujo-- to have panned out. Both look like busts.

 

I find it strange that Richardson was so bad; guard is an easy transition from college.

 

Why is Pat Morris employed as an offensive line coach if he can't develop the players and make their play better? And being a former lineman and line coach, where is Marrone? The Bills need to employ a line coach that actually played the position at a high level in the league. Listening to Shaun O'Hara and "Stink" Schlerath breakdown the poor technique of our linemen makes me wonder why Morris/Marrone don't see the same things that's inhibiting them. And the fact that after week 15, they still can't recognize and pick up a line stunt is beyond my comprehension.

[hondo in seattle]

A few thoughts about this article and the OL...

 

When Rob Johnson was our QB, we all expected sacks because he held onto the ball too long. But Orton is getting rid of the ball in 2.32 seconds - third fastest in the NFL. And yet he's still hurried, hit or sacked on 38.2% of his dropbacks - 6th highest in the NFL. As quickly as Orton is getting the ball out, it's still not quick enough. Our OL is simply porous.

 

This may explain why Orton misses wide open receivers. He's trying to get rid of the ball as fast as he can to avoid the hurry/hit/sack.

 

Earlier this year the OL apologists were blaming the lack of run productions on the backs. Specifically, they were saying that the OL is opening holes but CJ isn't hitting him due to his supposed lack of peripheral vision. However, neither Freddy nor Bryce nor Boobie have found room to run this year either. The OL just doesn't create running lanes.

 

Someone suggested that we fans all act like we have Ph.Ds in OL play. I admit I don't know the finer points of life in the trenches. But after 40 years of watching football, I do know that QBs getting sacked and RBs running into a wall of defenders are bad things. We've seen a lot of bad things this year. In the run game, as in the pass game, the play of this line is indefensible.

 

The question remains how much you can blame the coaches - from Pat Morris on up - for the poor play of the OL? It's hard as a fan to really answer this question. But when you see our offensive linemen lose one-on-one battles again and again you know that individual talent is a huge part of the problem.

 

So I personally don't know how good an OC Hackett can be, or how good a QB Orton can be, for the Bills. This line is historically bad which makes it hard to make a fair evaluation of the QB or OC.

[Solomon Grundy]

 

 

Alot of stupidity is what it is. Bottom line we can have the best OL in the NFL we still have no QB which = No playoffs. At some point all this Bull **** needs to stop and this team finally find Jim Kelly's replacement. They have failed to do so since 1996 and until they do, this team sucks

 

Jim Kelly wasn't who he was in Buffalo until they put Hull, Ballard, Davis, Ritcher and Wolford around him!

 

A few thoughts about this article and the OL...

 

When Rob Johnson was our QB, we all expected sacks because he held onto the ball too long. But Orton is getting rid of the ball in 2.32 seconds - third fastest in the NFL. And yet he's still hurried, hit or sacked on 38.2% of his dropbacks - 6th highest in the NFL. As quickly as Orton is getting the ball out, it's still not quick enough. Our OL is simply porous.

 

This may explain why Orton misses wide open receivers. He's trying to get rid of the ball as fast as he can to avoid the hurry/hit/sack.

 

Earlier this year the OL apologists were blaming the lack of run productions on the backs. Specifically, they were saying that the OL is opening holes but CJ isn't hitting him due to his supposed lack of peripheral vision. However, neither Freddy nor Bryce nor Boobie have found room to run this year either. The OL just doesn't create running lanes.

 

Someone suggested that we fans all act like we have Ph.Ds in OL play. I admit I don't know the finer points of life in the trenches. But after 40 years of watching football, I do know that QBs getting sacked and RBs running into a wall of defenders are bad things. We've seen a lot of bad things this year. In the run game, as in the pass game, the play of this line is indefensible.

 

The question remains how much you can blame the coaches - from Pat Morris on up - for the poor play of the OL? It's hard as a fan to really answer this question. But when you see our offensive linemen lose one-on-one battles again and again you know that individual talent is a huge part of the problem.

 

So I personally don't know how good an OC Hackett can be, or how good a QB Orton can be, for the Bills. This line is historically bad which makes it hard to make a fair evaluation of the QB or OC.

 

Could this be the same problem Manuel was having with his inaccuracy? He accuracy problem wasn't as bad the year prior. That's why I'm so glad they don't play EJ behind this PUTRID line

[Dan]

Thought I recently read something like this somewhere else, and will keep looking for that article. Meanwhile this article is telling that Marrone soured on Pears, and for good reasons.

 

"The front office has also bristled at how certain players are being used, sources said. Team executives believe tackle Cyrus Kouandjio, this year's second-round pick, warranted more of a long look this summer, were unhappy that emerging receiver Robert Woods was benched at times, and they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on (the team explored trades for Urbik before roster cuts, league sources said)."

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24695455/buffalo-tension-boils-over-in-shouting-match-for-marrone-bills-officials

This is one of the reasons I fault coaching and scheme. The FO addressed the line with draft picks and FA, and 4/5 of the line returned from 2013... a line that wasn't that bad. Yet, Marrone and company fiddled with it all off season right into the regualr season. They moved players around, switched positions, and basically screwed the whole thing up.

 

So, although we had 4/5 of the line return, we only had 2 players playing the same position. Marrone said you don't need continuity, you need your 5 best guys. The results say he was wrong.

 

Add to all that, Hackett's predictable game calling and planning that gives defenses a leg up on what we're doing and you have a recipe for failure. I don't think anyone has ever said that our line is full of probowlers or that we're all good at the QB spot. But, Marrone and the entire offensive staff seemed to do everything possible to highlight every weakness, every week.

 

There were times, I actually wondered... are they screwing this up on purpose to prove a point to someone? Because, I honestly can't see doing some of the things they did... over and over again.

[thewildrabbit]

This is one of the reasons I fault coaching and scheme. The FO addressed the line with draft picks and FA, and 4/5 of the line returned from 2013... a line that wasn't that bad. Yet, Marrone and company fiddled with it all off season right into the regualr season. They moved players around, switched positions, and basically screwed the whole thing up.

 

So, although we had 4/5 of the line return, we only had 2 players playing the same position. Marrone said you don't need continuity, you need your 5 best guys. The results say he was wrong.

 

Add to all that, Hackett's predictable game calling and planning that gives defenses a leg up on what we're doing and you have a recipe for failure. I don't think anyone has ever said that our line is full of probowlers or that we're all good at the QB spot. But, Marrone and the entire offensive staff seemed to do everything possible to highlight every weakness, every week.

 

There were times, I actually wondered... are they screwing this up on purpose to prove a point to someone? Because, I honestly can't see doing some of the things they did... over and over again.

Dan, I was wondering this almost every game when I would see the Bills OC purposely playing right into the strengths of the defense. Last game was a perfect example as the Raiders were the #7 pass defense, and Hackett calls for 49 passes. Yet the Raiders were particularity bad against the run #24, and Hackett calls for only 13 run plays for 13 yards.

 

It really isn't that difficult to build a decent run game even with two deficient players on the line, as they could easily use misdirection plays. Reverses, fake reverses, end around's. Put EJ in there to run read option plays, and only ask him to run the ball. Or simply do what the Denver Broncos did when faced with the same dilemma of bad OG's, and wanting to run the ball effectively. They brought in an extra OT, and took out a TE. Then had the interior linemen double up on their blocking assignments, and that worked very well all year for them. Except against the Bills run D, yet their RB had 3 TD's, and was a big difference in that game.

 

Since the Chargers game the Bills OC has been going pass happy by calling for more passes then runs, and was almost the exact opposite last year. I gotta wonder if this comes back to Marrone not being happy with the line situation so he instructs his OC to throw it all game.

 

Then again, given the limited mentality of the Bills OC.... http://www.buffalobi...bb-c911b4607d09

 

Is probably a big reason as to why Mike Williams went invisible after the Texans game

[3rdand12]

This seems to indicate the Front Office and the Head Coach & his staff are not on the same page here. An organization cannot function at a high level this way. This gets reflected by the product on the field. Clearly in order to resolve this situation one or the other, or both need to go.

 

Internal debate and differences are a normal part of any business but once a course of action or a plan is determined then everybody has got to get behind it and the time for disagreement is over. Big priority for ownership to resolve..

I agree mostly except how to repair it.

This will be on Pegula to have them find a common goal and the work together towards it.

The Issue with Ralph Wilson and the ensuing transition was surely a factor in all the disconnect and "in fighting "

[ctk232]

This is a fantastic analysis. It's really a shame it isn't the only positional issue that needs to be addressed, but I agree wholly that too much blame has been placed on Orton and Hackett than our OL. I'm not defending Orton or Hackett by saying this, but we would have seen much greater production from this offense with a proper OL.

 

Granted, we have a lot of unproven rookie linemen that may/may not pan out next year or in the years to come. The Williams move in the offseason left everyone wondering exactly what our front office saw in him and our doubts were realized early on. I appreciate this analysis most since it paints our OL's issues in the context of our entire offense - every aspect of the team suffers with a weak OL. If we can focus on signing 2-3 OL in free agency, at least two guards and maybe another tackle depending on how we use Pears and Henderson. Hopefully we get lucky in this draft and a solid OL talent drops to the 2nd round, but I'm not sure how deep the field is this year.

 

I'd love to see this team go after amplifying our OL first and foremost. Resign the necessary defensive/offensive talent (Hughes, Spikes, Searcy, Wynn, Hogan, Bryant, Thigpen - in no particular order) and then address our QB failings. With a better OL we would see a lot of "issues" from this season alleviated. Not necessarily cured, but manageable to allow consistent wins.

[dave mcbride]

Apparently you missed the last game against the Raiders in which Urbik was shoved five yards into the Bills backfield with Raiders D lineman Antonio Smith draped all over him to make the tackle on Spiller five yards behind the line of scrimmage. Then even if Spiller had managed to elude that tackle there were two other Raiders ready to jump on him before he even got back to the line of scrimmage.

 

On that particular play it was seven Bills on five Raiders, and the Bills lost. That is the trouble for the entire line this year, as they all stink. The O line coach should be fired. The Bills OC should be fired, and the guy who is coaching the entire offensive mess should be fired, and now I'm wondering if Whaley shouldn't go right along with them all.

I'm pretty sure it was Wood who got pushed back on that play.

[Dan]

Dan, I was wondering this almost every game when I would see the Bills OC purposely playing right into the strengths of the defense. Last game was a perfect example as the Raiders were the #7 pass defense, and Hackett calls for 49 passes. Yet the Raiders were particularity bad against the run #24, and Hackett calls for only 13 run plays for 13 yards.

 

It really isn't that difficult to build a decent run game even with two deficient players on the line, as they could easily use misdirection plays. Reverses, fake reverses, end around's. Put EJ in there to run read option plays, and only ask him to run the ball. Or simply do what the Denver Broncos did when faced with the same dilemma of bad OG's, and wanting to run the ball effectively. They brought in an extra OT, and took out a TE. Then had the interior linemen double up on their blocking assignments, and that worked very well all year for them. Except against the Bills run D, yet their RB had 3 TD's, and was a big difference in that game.

 

Since the Chargers game the Bills OC has been going pass happy by calling for more passes then runs, and was almost the exact opposite last year. I gotta wonder if this comes back to Marrone not being happy with the line situation so he instructs his OC to throw it all game.

 

Then again, given the limited mentality of the Bills OC.... http://www.buffalobi...bb-c911b4607d09

 

Is probably a big reason as to why Mike Williams went invisible after the Texans game

Precisely my point. We played right to the Raiders' strength. And as bad as that is, its not the first time we did that in a game.

 

And, I also agree, there's ways to create running lanes and design around poor guards. But knowing that guard is the weakest position on the line, we continually and repeatedly ran right behind the guard. That's what I don't get. Honestly, it made me think Marrone told Whaley he needed different players; Whaley said these are fine; so Marrone said fine... I'll show you how bad they are. It sounds stupid even as I type it, but it's baffling how bad we got and how little we adjusted to compensate for how bad we were.

 

Why have all those sub standard TEs activated and playing? Why have a kick off specialist only to have him kick it to the goal line forcing a run back? Why bench a viable red zone threat when we can't score in the red zone? Why not try to score before the half? Why bench Urbik to start the season? There's so many questions over the course of the season that were never answered and probably never wil be.