Article: Why OL is bigger issue than Hackett/QB

[Coach Tuesday]

The real problem from what I recently read is that Marrone wanted real changes to the players on the line, and was denied. He was told by the FO that the current players were good enough. I noticed in the article that it didn't say Whaley, so I gotta wonder if this is Russ Brandon and his stinking analytic dept with a very stupid attempt to "moneyball" the OG position.

 

Both Pears, and Urbik were barely serviceable as pass blockers, and always stunk at run blocking. In fact the entire line stinks at run blocking. It might have something to do with Buddy Nix and his moronic thinking that bigger is always better.

 

All I need to do is look at what the Cowboys did to build a top offensive line to realize this FO has been near totally inept in their process of trying to get by with some sub par players.

 

Where did you read that?

[thewildrabbit]

Where did you read that?

I'll try and find it again

[rsxfirefighter]

@RQUINN619: #Bills Must Prioritize OL Over QB in 2015 Offseason (vines&adv stats) http://t.co/GaNgzGvrYH via @TheBillsMafia http://t.co/bVOGmaE7Cd

 

Good read. A lot of research.

 

Agree Yolo.. Well written and researched.

 

 

Buffalo has had so many holes to fill these past few years, and we all knew it couldnt be done in one off season. They took the chance that CW would fill the gap and the Richardson would transition smoothly. Obviously that didnt happen.

From what I remember, last off-season was the worse to find a Starting Off. Guard. Lots of teams were looking to upgrade, but the talent/availability wasnt there. Hopefully they can sign a great FA and draft another potential stud in round 2 and maybe Richardson steps up his game in year 2.

 

A few years ago, it was hard to identify our glaring weakness because we had so many holes. Now we appear to only have OG, Game Breaking TE, and maybe QB. We know this draft is not going to be heavy on GB TE's or Franchise QBs (Some say none in draft) after round 1. So that allows us to focus all our attention on a potential starting OG.

 

Lets go Buffalo!!

[thewildrabbit]

Thought I recently read something like this somewhere else, and will keep looking for that article. Meanwhile this article is telling that Marrone soured on Pears, and for good reasons.

 

 

"The front office has also bristled at how certain players are being used, sources said. Team executives believe tackle Cyrus Kouandjio, this year's second-round pick, warranted more of a long look this summer, were unhappy that emerging receiver Robert Woods was benched at times, and they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on (the team explored trades for Urbik before roster cuts, league sources said)."

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24695455/buffalo-tension-boils-over-in-shouting-match-for-marrone-bills-officials

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

WHOA WHOA WHOA. Given the leeway by whom?

id guess the one controlling the money

[papazoid]

in this case, they must do BOTH qb & o line.

 

fixing one without the other will not end our playoff drought.

 

 

[Justice]

Thought I recently read something like this somewhere else, and will keep looking for that article. Meanwhile this article is telling that Marrone soured on Pears, and for good reasons.

 

 

"The front office has also bristled at how certain players are being used, sources said. Team executives believe tackle Cyrus Kouandjio, this year's second-round pick, warranted more of a long look this summer, were unhappy that emerging receiver Robert Woods was benched at times, and they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on (the team explored trades for Urbik before roster cuts, league sources said)."

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer/jason-la-canfora/24695455/buffalo-tension-boils-over-in-shouting-match-for-marrone-bills-officials

 

The FO and coaching staff are definitely at odds with each other. You already provided some examples, but here's a couple more, Mike Williams, and Bryce Brown.

[Dopey]

This appears to be true, the play of the line as a unit and its individuals has deteriorated. And I'd suggest the Bills made a concerted effort to focus on the offensive line in last year's off-season. They signed Chris Williams (who wasn't rated high on the free agent board) and drafted Kouandjio, Richardson, and Henderson so this need wasn't ignored but rather it wasn't successfully addressed by the front office.

So what should give us any shread of confidence they are going to do it right this off-season? Meanwhile, teams like New England, Green Bay, and San Diego, just seem to find guys they can plug right into the line up and continue to play at a high level.

If you take the QB's of the 3 teams you mentioned, we would be in the playoffs. Think about it, put Aaron Rodgers or Brady on this team and we probably have the # 1 or 2 team in the AFC. Add Rivers and we make the playoffs. IMO.

[thewildrabbit]

Great article, and pretty much sums up my thoughts on the O line situation. Sucks it has taken over two years to fix it, and it still isn't good.

 

Still, Hackett must go for not even trying to run the ball in some games, and if running the ball was Marrone's offensive philosophy. Then why didn't he curtail all the passing game after game or demand / ask for a trade before the deadline. There was also the option of Richie Incognito who would be an upgrade over any OG on the roster.

 

My favorite line was, "The Bills’ offensive line has played at such a low level this season that it’s actually pretty incredible that the team managed to claw out eight wins."

[Justice]

We are averaging 50 less rushing yards per game, according to the article. That's an indictment on everyone, offensive line as well as coaching/scheme.

[KD in CA]

You only need to look at the Dallas Cowboys to understand the value of having a good offensive line. Made DeMarco Murray look like Walter Payton.

 

Plenty of people questioned their 'un-sexy' pick of a guard in the first round this year. I recall the same criticism of Pittsburgh for taking DeCastro. That pick seems to have worked out for Leveon Bell.

[thebandit27]

It's a well-written article, and I think we're all on the same page that the OL needs to be better.

 

I think, however, that saying it needs to be THE focus is misguided. The focus should be on the QB position, as it easily trumps the OL in terms of quality translating to success.

 

That said, there's no question in my min that personnel is holding back Hackett, and not vice versa.

 

My opinion is that there are two approaches that make sense for the OL:

 

1) Sign one FA guard (Boling) and draft another guard in rd 3 or 4. Re-sign Hairston and keep Urbik as interior backup.

 

2) Sign a FA guard and pray that Kouandjio can play RT, flipping Henderson to LT and Glenn to LG. There was a Vic Carucci article a week or two back that hinted that the organization may be leaning in this direction.

 

Of course, if the QB position isn't figured out none of this will matter; I still would like to see what Hackett can do with actual offensive talent at a position other than WR.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

The FO and coaching staff are definitely at odds with each other. You already provided some examples, but here's a couple more, Mike Williams, and Bryce Brown.

i would be surprised if the FO didn't want brown inactive as much as possible. Production qualifiers affect when and where that draft pick we give up for him. Williams is a story that no one knows at this point unless they have a source. Edited December 24, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[Justice]

i would be surprised if the FO didn't want brown inactive as much as possible. Production qualifiers affect when bad where that draft pick we give up for him. Williams is a story that no one knows at this point unless they have a source.

 

I don't buy that reasoning. I would hope they want to see their players excel on the football field no matter the potential draft compensation.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

I don't buy that reasoning. I would hope they want to see their players excel on the football field no matter the potential draft compensation.

he would have been playing a backup over a starter

[All_Pro_Bills]

Thought I recently read something like this somewhere else, and will keep looking for that article. Meanwhile this article is telling that Marrone soured on Pears, and for good reasons.

 

 

"The front office has also bristled at how certain players are being used, sources said. Team executives believe tackle Cyrus Kouandjio, this year's second-round pick, warranted more of a long look this summer, were unhappy that emerging receiver Robert Woods was benched at times, and they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on (the team explored trades for Urbik before roster cuts, league sources said)."

 

http://www.cbssports...bills-officials

This seems to indicate the Front Office and the Head Coach & his staff are not on the same page here. An organization cannot function at a high level this way. This gets reflected by the product on the field. Clearly in order to resolve this situation one or the other, or both need to go.

 

Internal debate and differences are a normal part of any business but once a course of action or a plan is determined then everybody has got to get behind it and the time for disagreement is over. Big priority for ownership to resolve..

Edited December 24, 2014 by All_Pro_Bills

[dave mcbride]

It's a well-written article, and I think we're all on the same page that the OL needs to be better.

 

I think, however, that saying it needs to be THE focus is misguided. The focus should be on the QB position, as it easily trumps the OL in terms of quality translating to success.

 

That said, there's no question in my min that personnel is holding back Hackett, and not vice versa.

 

My opinion is that there are two approaches that make sense for the OL:

 

1) Sign one FA guard (Boling) and draft another guard in rd 3 or 4. Re-sign Hairston and keep Urbik as interior backup.

 

2) Sign a FA guard and pray that Kouandjio can play RT, flipping Henderson to LT and Glenn to LG. There was a Vic Carucci article a week or two back that hinted that the organization may be leaning in this direction.

 

Of course, if the QB position isn't figured out none of this will matter; I still would like to see what Hackett can do with actual offensive talent at a position other than WR.

It's a lot easier to fix the guard postion than the qb position. With the latter, you have to get lucky.

 

I don't get the idea of moving Glenn to guard, btw, although it's brought up a lot. He's an objectively solid-to-good LT, and it's the most important position on the line. The Bills have had loads of bad LTs over the years, and Henderson's performance this year doesn't inspire confidence that he'll be an improvement over Glenn at all.

 

Also: great piece, Yolo. Thanks for posting.

Edited December 24, 2014 by dave mcbride

[thebandit27]

 

It's a lot easier to fix the guard postion than the qb position. With the latter, you have to get lucky.

 

I don't get the idea of moving Glenn to guard, btw, although it's brought up a lot. He's an objectively solid-to-good LT, and it's the most important position on the line. The Bills have had loads of bad LTs over the years, and Henderson's performance this year doesn't inspire confidence that he'll be an improvement over Glenn at all.

 

Also: great piece, Yolo. Thanks for posting.

 

I agree with all of that, Dave.

 

I would approach 2015 as though you have quality starters at LT and C, and will have one at RT based on competition between Henderson, Kouandjio, and a re-signed Hairston. Then I'd assume I need a bona fide starting RG in FA (my guy is Boling as I've mentioned more times than most would care to hear).

 

After that, I'd draft a 3rd or (more likely) 4th round guard and let him fight it out with Williams & Richardson (assuming he loses about 20 lbs) for the LG spot.

 

As for QB, do what it takes to get a veteran like Sam Bradford, then draft a developmental guy like Bryce Petty or Garrett Grayson in round 3 and have him sit behind EJ.

[vincec]

Thought I recently read something like this somewhere else, and will keep looking for that article. Meanwhile this article is telling that Marrone soured on Pears, and for good reasons.

 

 

"The front office has also bristled at how certain players are being used, sources said. Team executives believe tackle Cyrus Kouandjio, this year's second-round pick, warranted more of a long look this summer, were unhappy that emerging receiver Robert Woods was benched at times, and they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on (the team explored trades for Urbik before roster cuts, league sources said)."

 

http://www.cbssports...bills-officials

I agree with the personnel group on Urbik. I think that he can adequately man one of the guard positions if they can find a strong player at the other one. At the very least, he's a better than average backup so the idea that the Bills would trade him when OL is the worst position on the team is ludicrous IMO.

 

The obvious conservative off season plan for OL:

 

Do not re-sign Pears.

Sign a here-to-date average FA guard with upside potential.

Draft another RT/OG prospect at #2 or #3.

Hope that Henderson, Richardson and Kouandjio develop.

Give Chris Williams one last chance to show improvement and stay healthy.

Replace OL coach.

 

At least that would be my plan.

Edited December 24, 2014 by vincec

[Manther]

The OL has not played well, but why is everyone's play deteriorating with Marrone and Hackett in charge? Glenn, Wood, Pears all had the worst seasons of their careers. I wonder how much of the OL struggles result from poor scheme and coaching.

Exactly!