Manther Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 You could give Marrone Roaf, Boselli, Munoz, House, Hull, Joe D and Walter Jones and in two years our OL would be average. Exaggerated....but agree and point taken.
Manther Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 So a new OLine coach and two new guards fixes everything. I can agree to that, mostly. I also can't agree with that. A new OL coach would most likely help. 2 new guards would definitely help. A new OC would most likely help as well. 13th in the league in yards per play 2 years in a row the 2 previous years before Hackett. 29th in the league Hacketts 2 years as OC. The talent level on the OL hasn't regressed THAT much. Agree with all.
YoloinOhio Posted December 27, 2014 Author Posted December 27, 2014 I can't disagree with your assessment the Bills O-line has regressed. But your hyperbolic example of assembling a Pro Bowl caliber line, only to have Marrone destroy it with coaching is simply idiotic, based simply on the regression of this year's line, IMO. First of all, Marrone is NOT the O-Line coach for the Buffalo Bills. And he has had some real success in the past as an OL coach. He does seem to be more interest than many HC in the coaching of the OL--I'll give you that. Is this year an aberration? Should he be more, or less, involved with the coaching of the OL? Perhaps the OL coach is the issue. I happen to think the issue with the OL this year is a combination of several things: poor QBing, injuries to the starting RBs, poor play calling, guards who didn't perform at their predicted level, etc. It seemed like a perfect storm to the detriment to the OL and the offense overall. My point is, the problem is complicated and a simple solution like "fire Marrone" doesn't seem like an well thought out solution. Do you think the next HC will be an OL expert? Do you even have any idea who they might hire as a HC? Might the next HC do better with the OL but destroy the defense? The knee-jerk response to the Bills issues is understandable (for fans) given their years of failure, but it is rarely a good management strategy. I'm not arguing Marrone is the answer for this team and should be retained. But I would think long and hard before firing him. The constant changing of HCs, particularly when the team is making strides in the W column, seems like a bad idea to me. But if there is a proven NFL HC, whose strength is offense waiting to take the job, perhaps a change should be considered. But would Schwartz stay with a new HC? If not, who would be brought in? Would that DC need to change personnel to match his "system"? My point being a HC change changes more than just the OL. I believe this team has far fewer holes than in past years. Plus the needs are pretty specific this year. And I'd like to think that Whaley, and Marrone know what those needs are. Fortunately one of the biggest needs is also supposedly Marrone's strength. A concentrated effort by Whaley and Marrone should be able to improve this problem in the offseason. It seems like an area that shouldn't be too difficult to improve (I mean it would hard to be worse, no?). After all, aren't serviceable guards easier to find than tackles? One might think that experience should help Richardson, if he has any talent at all. The question I have re: Marrone is, will be be willing to change OC and OL coach? If not, that is a real problem, IMO. I'm not saying he should make a knee-jerk decision, but he needs to be open to the option, should the FO conclude those coaches are the biggest problem. agreed. He is not the OL coach. He works with them occasionally. I expect Pat Morris to get the Ike Hilliard ticket out of town.
8-8 Forever? Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 This appears to be true, the play of the line as a unit and its individuals has deteriorated. And I'd suggest the Bills made a concerted effort to focus on the offensive line in last year's off-season. They signed Chris Williams (who wasn't rated high on the free agent board) and drafted Kouandjio, Richardson, and Henderson so this need wasn't ignored but rather it wasn't successfully addressed by the front office. So what should give us any shread of confidence they are going to do it right this off-season? Meanwhile, teams like New England, Green Bay, and San Diego, just seem to find guys they can plug right into the line up and continue to play at a high level. Brady, Rodgers and Rivers. that's how they do it. Simple game. Find a top 10 QB and everything else is secondary. Which is why they'll never get there.
The Big Cat Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Has nobody stopped to wonder perhaps Marrone spends more time with the OLine because he's not satisfied with the coaching they ARE getting? I guess we'll find out within the week. And if fans think that the time he does devote--when the media is watching--makes up a substantial portion of his coaching duties and/or their preparation duties, they're flat wrong.
4merper4mer Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Has nobody stopped to wonder perhaps Marrone spends more time with the OLine because he's not satisfied with the coaching they ARE getting? I guess we'll find out within the week. And if fans think that the time he does devote--when the media is watching--makes up a substantial portion of his coaching duties and/or their preparation duties, they're flat wrong. If he needs more time to properly coach OL I would be all for him getting an OL coach job somewhere. I think North Carolina Ag & Tech has an opening.
The Big Cat Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 If he needs more time to properly coach OL I would be all for him getting an OL coach job somewhere. I think North Carolina Ag & Tech has an opening. No seriously, you do a great job of keeping honest discussion on track.
Bocephuz Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Some of you may be familiar with my weekly OLine Pass Protection/ Qb Unforced error film review posts I've been putting up since week 4. Coaching..play calling issues aside.. Here is how I grade out each lineman in pass protect for 14. Glenn: B minus -nowhere near his 2013 level but more of an asset than a liability Richardson - D minus - physically strong, poor mobility and very poor awareness( ie stunts etc..) Urbik - C+ - provided some stability .. Few mental errors but physically is on the downside Wood - D - Wood either made a mental mistake or was manhandled at least once in every game I watched. Pears - C minus- tough spot.. Clearly out of position. Awful in first half of year.. Actually started to settle a bit in second half. Still more liability than asset. Henderson - C- commendable job for a rookie. A Handful of horrendous outings cloud his mostly passable work in most games 2 things occur to me Injuries - aside from Chris Williams.. The OL avoided major injuries.. So one can't really blame injury or lack of cohesion for the O Line Failure Rookies - shock that Richardson and Kouandjio were so ill prepared
San-O Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Chris Williams was not playing well when he got hurt. Yes he was better than those other clowns but that's not saying much. And to expect a converted tackle with a history of back issues to solve the LG problem is negligence in its own right. Someone needs to be held accountable for these things, Yolo. + 1. People (the board) were extremely skeptical of this signing when made for obvious reasons, get the Bills F.O. makes poor decisions like this particularly on the O line all the time. Who's at fault here?
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Since Urbik was freed from Marrone's idiotic doghouse, the oline has been average. Not great but average. Orton makes them look worse than they are because he holds the ball too long or falls the second a defender breathes on him. Also, predictable playcalling hurts them. Defenses are teeing off because our calls are so easy to guess.
RyanC883 Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) The OL has not played well, but why is everyone's play deteriorating with Marrone and Hackett in charge? Glenn, Wood, Pears all had the worst seasons of their careers. I wonder how much of the OL struggles result from poor scheme and coaching. This is the problem. Everyone's play gets worse from season to season, and also during the season (Orton, O-line,etc.). This appears to apply exclusively to the offensive side of the ball. Hackett must be replaced, a real OC who Marrone would not meddle with must be brought in (Tony Sparano), and of course, we must improve the O-line talent. But there is no point in bringing in additional "talent" if this coaching staff will make it regress. Edited December 27, 2014 by RyanC883
Mickey Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Since Urbik was freed from Marrone's idiotic doghouse, the oline has been average. Not great but average. Orton makes them look worse than they are because he holds the ball too long or falls the second a defender breathes on him. Also, predictable playcalling hurts them. Defenses are teeing off because our calls are so easy to guess. They have not been average, not even close. The services that rate these guys on every play all season make it clear that this bunch was well below average. But you don't need a service to tell you that, just watch the all-22 tapes and you'll see that they fail to protect Orton long enough for the WR's to get far enough into their routes for Orton to deliver the ball. That is why he so often has to dump it off to a receiver whose running a short, quick route that, on third and 6 or 7+ is not long enough to pick up the first down. I don't know why this is even a debate. We all knew the line was a liability going into the off season last year and that the odds of a serious improvement with a handful of rookies and the often injured Williams were pretty long. Turns out our fears were justified.
reddogblitz Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 People (the board) were extremely skeptical of this signing when made for obvious reasons, get the Bills F.O. makes poor decisions like this particularly on the O line all the time. Who's at fault here? Doug Whaley
hondo in seattle Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 (edited) Since Urbik was freed from Marrone's idiotic doghouse, the oline has been average. Not great but average. Orton makes them look worse than they are because he holds the ball too long or falls the second a defender breathes on him. Also, predictable playcalling hurts them. Defenses are teeing off because our calls are so easy to guess. Actually Orton gets the ball out in 2.32 seconds (if memory serves), third fastest of qualifiers in the NFL. With or without Urbik, this OL has been awful. Maybe less awful with him, but still horrid. Edited December 27, 2014 by hondo in seattle
The Big Cat Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Actually Orton gets the ball out in 2.32 seconds (if memory serves), third fastest of qualifiers in the NFL. With or without Urbik, this OL has been awful. Maybe less awful with him, but still horrid. I'm glad that this anti-Marrone propaganda is being stomped out accordingly. Urbril sucks. That's why he didn't play. Not to satisfy some fantastical personal attack on our HC.
San-O Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Excellent article. Great conversation / posts resulting from. Thx. My question is what are the Bills going to do to address the terrible talent/personnel evaluation that is a major issue and a huge part of the problem as a whole? Also, how Marrone and Hackett screwed this one unit up SO bad is beyond me. Coaching/play-calling/scheme, you name it. And how drafted rookies can't get on the field with the O-line unit which is so bad is another indication how bad evaluation is? Putting guys out of position also makes no sense. Bad coaching.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Actually Orton gets the ball out in 2.32 seconds (if memory serves), third fastest of qualifiers in the NFL. With or without Urbik, this OL has been awful. Maybe less awful with him, but still horrid. Do you have a link? Orton averages 6.7 ypa this year. He averages 6.6 for his career. The olne hs not been perfect but there's been plenty of times when Orton has time and chooses to dump the ball off. Blaming the oline is such a cop out and is ignoring the real problems. The OC and QB aren't good enough.
The Big Cat Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Do you have a link? Orton averages 6.7 ypa this year. He averages 6.6 for his career. The olne hs not been perfect but there's been plenty of times when Orton has time and chooses to dump the ball off. Blaming the oline is such a cop out and is ignoring the real problems. The OC and QB aren't good enough. Mmmmm, there has been A LOT written lately by sources everywhere that say otherwise. Mine own eyes agree. Orton blows. The OLine is awful. If we agree on these things we're in no position to evaluate the job our OC is doing, IMO.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 Mmmmm, there has been A LOT written lately by sources everywhere that say otherwise. Mine own eyes agree. Orton blows. The OLine is awful. If we agree on these things we're in no position to evaluate the job our OC is doing, IMO. So the OC has no responsibilty in the regression of the oline? The OC has no say in the QB? Our OC was Manuel's QB coach his rookie year. He doesn't bear a big chunk of that?
The Big Cat Posted December 27, 2014 Posted December 27, 2014 So the OC has no responsibilty in the regression of the oline? The OC has no say in the QB? Our OC was Manuel's QB coach his rookie year. He doesn't bear a big chunk of that? You harp on this regression narrative.
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