DC Tom Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 They're in a Cover 1 on 1st down because they have absolutely zero fear of the Bills hurting them downfield. Orton has two primary reads here, the first is the one he actually took up the right sideline; the other is waiting for Watkins to come clean on the drag route, but only if he's willing to wait on it. He's clearly not willing to wait on it (possibly for good reason) so he went with the default option of the outside throw against that defense. If he is stupid enough to throw the post against a Cover 1 like The Big Clueless wants him to, its an automatic pick unless the WR makes a great defensive play. And note the deep safety is already breaking on the sideline pass. A second earlier, he's waiting for Orton to commit. Which places him in a good position to jump all over that post if Orton commits to that read (the counterpoint to that being that he wouldn't, since if he does and blows it, there is no one behind him). But then, there's also the LB right in the passing lane, and two DLs about to turn Orton into roadkill.
PolishDave Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 I have beeing arguing something similar to this for a while now. I think people are looking at the wrong frames in the all-22 videos. Passing lanes are one thing people miss a lot. Also, the wind up for the throw, once the defense knows where the QB is going with the ball, the pull off their coverage, and suddenly everybody looks open. In real time it is tough to distinguish, when the decision is made and when a receiver is open. I though the Houston game was a prime example. Guys were not running around open all game, in fact coverage was pretty good. This screen shot needs to be one second sooner. These photos can be abused as badly as stats that people dig into to try to prove their point. In this case it is the Orton haters and/or Hacket lovers who just want to (once again) try and make it look like Orton is the worst quarterback ever. I don't even know why people keep trying to make repeated points about Orton's lack of elite status. Nobody here thinks he is elite. He is merely serviceable, especially compared to the Bills' available options.
ricojes Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 (edited) This 3rd and 1, before the "no punt" looks just as bad for Orton, Hackett, Marrone, The Bills, My parents, and everyone involved: How do you pin that on Orton? He had one option, the other 2 receivers were blocking. I am not an Orton fan, but I can't blame him for everything. Edited December 23, 2014 by ricojes
BringBackFergy Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 http://vine.co/v/OX6BWLqL5dX Orton has no pocket presence, no feel for pressure, no arm strength and always misses the best receiver. He sucks. Stop this bull **** and wake up. You aren't going to find anyone better who is available. Orton is a poor man's Drew Brees.
fridge Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 How do you pin that on Orton? He had one option, the other 2 receivers were blocking. I am not an Orton fan, but I can't blame him for everything. I didn't. In fact, I explicitly say that it looks bad for everyone involved.
Simon Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 And note the deep safety is already breaking on the sideline pass. A second earlier, he's waiting for Orton to commit. Which places him in a good position to jump all over that post if Orton commits to that read (the counterpoint to that being that he wouldn't, since if he does and blows it, there is no one behind him). Didn't I already point out all this ****?
Cash Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 Is it possible that the Hackett / Orton incompetence is not mutual exclusive? Bingo. I will in no way defend our QB play this year; it's been atrocious. But I don't get Big Cat's dogged defense of the coaching staff. I don't think the coaching staff is incompetent on every play, and there are definitely some good plays and good play calls in every game. But I also see a lot of head-scratchers, and I think that we fans have every right to call out where there's room for improvement. And there's lots of room for improvement in the offensive coaching department. I don't necessarily advocate any firings, by the way. Firing Hackett probably won't do much without also firing Marrone, and there is some downside to firing Marrone. (Primarily that it'll be tougher to maintain the excellent defense.) The upside of keeping Marrone is that Marrone/Hackett are both relatively young & inexperienced for their current jobs, and it's reasonable to expect them to get better. How much better, and how fast? I have no idea. But I'm fairly okay with the idea of trying to get internal improvement on the coaching side, and bringing in external sources of talent on the player side. This play, and the ensuing punt, were what has put me over the edge with the Coaching. I might understand this call if, as I was assuming at the time, they planned to go for it on 4th down. However, as we all know now, Marrone decide to punt, 2 points down and less than 15 yds from kicking the go ahead field goal. That decision, along with this cutesy call which did not even seem to have an option, baffle me. You had 2 plays to get 1 yard, and this is the best option? Orton of course screwed it up. Game over. EXACTLY! Was Orton bad? Yes, of course. He's awful and I don't want him as the Bills quarterback at all. Why though, does the coaching staff constantly put him in these situations. It's not like there was a gun to Hackett's head that forced him to have his QB throw behind the LOS on 3rd and 1. There's no way I can believe that because the QB is bad that the coaching staff gets a pass. They need to be better situationally and utilize the strengths of their players. Not throw a weird flat pattern to Hogan on 3rd and 1. That play was completely heinous, and completely indefensible. Nothing about it worked, and the design itself was crappy. Any play can work if it's well-executed enough. That doesn't mean that they're all good plays. It also doesn't mean that play-calling is irrelevant. And in this case, we had a VERY important 3rd and 1, and the play-caller had to know that we'd be punting if we didn't get the first down. (If Hackett didn't know that, then Marrone should be fired on those grounds alone. That would be an inexcusable lack of game-day communication.) There's not a lot of game left at this point, so it would seem that now is the time to bring out one of your best plays, if not your very best. That play might not be the same against every team, but part of your job is to scout the opposing team's tendencies and figure out what will work best against them. Another part of your job is to know your own team's abilities and figure out how to exploit your strengths. Hopefully there's something in your playbook that takes advantage of both your strengths and your opponents weaknesses. Hopefully a few things, really. And in this situation, you probably want to dial up the one with the highest percentage chance of success. No play will ever have 100% success rate, of course, but some are better than others. If I met Nate Hackett, I would ask him if he thought that play had the best chance of success, and why. Assuming he answered honestly, if he answered "yes", then I'd know he's deeply incompetent, because I've seen MUCH better plays than that piece of junk. Even in the same game, he had a few nice plays. Plus, a number of his short yardage plays work off of each other - like the Frank Summers/Lee Smith TDs in the first Jets game - so it's hard for the D to snuff it out even if they've seen it on film. If Hackett answered "no", then the "why" would become very interesting.
fridge Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 Bingo. I will in no way defend our QB play this year; it's been atrocious. But I don't get Big Cat's dogged defense of the coaching staff. I don't think the coaching staff is incompetent on every play, and there are definitely some good plays and good play calls in every game. But I also see a lot of head-scratchers, and I think that we fans have every right to call out where there's room for improvement. And there's lots of room for improvement in the offensive coaching department. I don't necessarily advocate any firings, by the way. Firing Hackett probably won't do much without also firing Marrone, and there is some downside to firing Marrone. (Primarily that it'll be tougher to maintain the excellent defense.) The upside of keeping Marrone is that Marrone/Hackett are both relatively young & inexperienced for their current jobs, and it's reasonable to expect them to get better. How much better, and how fast? I have no idea. But I'm fairly okay with the idea of trying to get internal improvement on the coaching side, and bringing in external sources of talent on the player side. That play was completely heinous, and completely indefensible. Nothing about it worked, and the design itself was crappy. Any play can work if it's well-executed enough. That doesn't mean that they're all good plays. It also doesn't mean that play-calling is irrelevant. And in this case, we had a VERY important 3rd and 1, and the play-caller had to know that we'd be punting if we didn't get the first down. (If Hackett didn't know that, then Marrone should be fired on those grounds alone. That would be an inexcusable lack of game-day communication.) There's not a lot of game left at this point, so it would seem that now is the time to bring out one of your best plays, if not your very best. That play might not be the same against every team, but part of your job is to scout the opposing team's tendencies and figure out what will work best against them. Another part of your job is to know your own team's abilities and figure out how to exploit your strengths. Hopefully there's something in your playbook that takes advantage of both your strengths and your opponents weaknesses. Hopefully a few things, really. And in this situation, you probably want to dial up the one with the highest percentage chance of success. No play will ever have 100% success rate, of course, but some are better than others. If I met Nate Hackett, I would ask him if he thought that play had the best chance of success, and why. Assuming he answered honestly, if he answered "yes", then I'd know he's deeply incompetent, because I've seen MUCH better plays than that piece of junk. Even in the same game, he had a few nice plays. Plus, a number of his short yardage plays work off of each other - like the Frank Summers/Lee Smith TDs in the first Jets game - so it's hard for the D to snuff it out even if they've seen it on film. If Hackett answered "no", then the "why" would become very interesting. There's really not a lot left to be said. Unfortunately, they'll retain Hackett.
Not at the table Karlos Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 I am in the fire Hackett crowd. However there are a bunch of plays where receivers are running wide open and the qb doesn't hit them. I think a lot of that has to to with Hackett drilling don't make mistakes, don't risk an interception by throwing deep and take the check downs. Also there are a bunch of plays where the play design makes absolutely no sense for the down and distance. His refusal to run or use a qb sneak on 3rd and 1. There are the misuse of players strengths along with his fetish for attacking the opponents strength and barely attacking the weakness.
papazoid Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 don't worry.....it's almost over. no way whaley hitches his wagon to orton next year with his job on the line.
fridge Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 I am in the fire Hackett crowd. However there are a bunch of plays where receivers are running wide open and the qb doesn't hit them. I think a lot of that has to to with Hackett drilling don't make mistakes, don't risk an interception by throwing deep and take the check downs. Also there are a bunch of plays where the play design makes absolutely no sense for the down and distance. His refusal to run or use a qb sneak on 3rd and 1. There are the misuse of players strengths along with his fetish for attacking the opponents strength and barely attacking the weakness. Agree with this all the way. It's difficult to know to what degree EJ's regression is put squarely on Hackett being unqualified, and in fact whispering constantly in his ear to not make a mistake.
ricojes Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 I didn't. In fact, I explicitly say that it looks bad for everyone involved. Right, including Orton. I get it though, it was an ugly play design and execution.
fridge Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 Right, including Orton. I get it though, it was an ugly play design and execution. To be fair, he also did not complete that throw.
ricojes Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 To be fair, he also did not complete that throw. correct, to his only option that was well covered...
fridge Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 correct, to his only option that was well covered... I feel like we're not really disagreeing with each other...at all.
RyanC883 Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 I'm start Is it possible that the Hackett / Orton incompetence is not mutual exclusive? You sir are correct. They are not mutually exclusive. They are both over their head. Hackett as an OC, and Orton as a starting QB. He always seems to stare down his #1 target and throw it there most of the time.
The Wiz Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 Not Geno. Sure he can. Unfortunately that receiver was grabbing a gatorade on the sideline.
Cash Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 There's really not a lot left to be said. Unfortunately, they'll retain Hackett. I really do think that the offense is chiefly Marrone's, and that there's not a lot to be gained by firing Hackett anyway. Maybe a little. don't worry.....it's almost over. no way whaley hitches his wagon to orton next year with his job on the line. I'm VERY interested to see what we do at the QB position next year. (Also what we do to the front office.) I wouldn't be surprised if we jumped into the trade market. Could make the draft extra-skippable for Bills fans.
Haslett_Stomp Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 EXACTLY! Was Orton bad? Yes, of course. He's awful and I don't want him as the Bills quarterback at all. Why though, does the coaching staff constantly put him in these situations. It's not like there was a gun to Hackett's head that forced him to have his QB throw behind the LOS on 3rd and 1. There's no way I can believe that because the QB is bad that the coaching staff gets a pass. They need to be better situationally and utilize the strengths of their players. Not throw a weird flat pattern to Hogan on 3rd and 1. We are not the only people who think that Hackett doesn't know what he is doing. The sequence of plays on this drive caught the attention of Gregg Easterbrook who details them in the"sour plays of the week" in his TMQ column on ESPN.com. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/TMQWeekSixtenn141223/nfl-team-loser-move-fans-tuesday-morning-quarterback
Kelly the Dog Posted December 23, 2014 Posted December 23, 2014 We are not the only people who think that Hackett doesn't know what he is doing. The sequence of plays on this drive caught the attention of Gregg Easterbrook who details them in the"sour plays of the week" in his TMQ column on ESPN.com. http://espn.go.com/n...ing-quarterback GE makes a few good points there.
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