Pope Francis ain't messing around

[birdog1960]

 

There is no difficulty in seeing that when you say you are a Catholic liberal, what you mean to say is that you're a liberal who attends a special Catholic church which, against all other Catholic churches, believes the act of homosexual sex is not a sin.

 

Or maybe you disagree with the church, and explained to the church that you believe the act of homosexual sex is not a sin, and they affirmed you for baptism anyway. Is that what happened?

 

If not...then just explain to us how your Catholic church was granted special sin waivers.

 

Explain something, because all you've done is use a lot of words to complete stray from the very simple questions we're asking.

rubbish. the church is not of one opinion on every subject. there are many practicing, active Catholics considered in good standing that are not in lock step regarding theology. there has always been theological debate within the vast church. it occasionally leads to excommunication and censure but pretty rarely. America is unique in habving generally conservative bishops but quite liberal nuns and laity, in general. in some of the rest of the world, there is a much more liberal prevailing attitude of bishops and priests, for example in S america from which Francis came. This article http://www.thenation.com/article/167986/american-nuns-guilty-charged explains one aspect of the schism in the american church. things have softend somewhat since then. the resolution of the inquiry into the nuns did not result in them losing their positions much less excommunication. an olive branch was extended. tensions still exist and there is more to play out but it's clear that there are liberal Christians within the church including the clergy. if positions are ultimately deemed incompatible with the faith, i suspect some will move to other Christian faiths. I actually know a nun that has done that. oh and the affirmation was for me to act as godfather in a parish in another country where i was unknown. it was in writing.

Edited June 30, 2015 by birdog1960

[DC Tom]

rubbish. the church is not of one opinion on every subject. there are many practicing, active Catholics considered in good standing that are not in lock step regarding theology. there has always been theological debate within the vast church. it occasionally leads to excommunication and censure but pretty rarely. America is unique in habving generally conservative bishops but quite liberal nuns and laity, in general. in some of the rest of the world, there is a much more liberal prevailing attitude of bishops and priests, for example in S america from which Francis came. This article http://www.thenation.com/article/167986/american-nuns-guilty-charged explains one aspect of the schism in the american church. things have softend somewhat since then. the resolution of the inquiry into the nuns did not result in them losing their positions much less excommunication. an olive branch was extended. tensions still exist and there is more to play out but it's clear that there are liberal Christians within the church including the clergy. if positions are ultimately deemed incompatible with the faith, i suspect some will move to other Christian faiths. I actually know a nun that has done that. oh and the affirmation was for me to act as godfather in a parish in another country where i was unknown. it was in writing.

 

Except that if you disagree with the Pope, you're denying the doctrine of papal infallibility. Hence, not Catholic.

[birdog1960]

 

Except that if you disagree with the Pope, you're denying the doctrine of papal infallibility. Hence, not Catholic.

only when he speaks ex cathedra. francis is yet to do that. i don't think benedict did it at all. there are actually very few examples it's a common misconception. don't feel obliged to feel embarrassed.

Edited June 30, 2015 by birdog1960

[IDBillzFan]

rubbish. the church is not of one opinion on every subject.

 

None of what you wrote addresses what I asked. You can spend weeks, months and years talking about the difference between Catholics and non-denominational Christians, but that is not what I'm asking. In fact, you were the one who said you were a liberal Catholic, and it's almost impossible to get you to explain why your Catholic church does not subscribe to the Catholic church doctrine regarding homosexual sex as a sin.

 

It's a simple question: Do you and the church you attend believe that the act of homosexual sex is a sin?

[DC Tom]

only when he speaks ex cathedra. francis is yet to do that. i don't think benedict did it at all. there are actually very few examples it's a common misconception. don't feel obliged to feel embarrassed.

 

No, I understood that. But church dogma doesn't reset just because a new pope is selected...there's no "I can disagree with THIS Pope, because he hasn't yet confirmed every damn thing his predecessor Popes have said" exemption.

[birdog1960]

 

None of what you wrote addresses what I asked. You can spend weeks, months and years talking about the difference between Catholics and non-denominational Christians, but that is not what I'm asking. In fact, you were the one who said you were a liberal Catholic, and it's almost impossible to get you to explain why your Catholic church does not subscribe to the Catholic church doctrine regarding homosexual sex as a sin.

 

It's a simple question: Do you and the church you attend believe that the act of homosexual sex is a sin?

i know exactly what you want. you want everything labelled in neat boxes with yes/no answers. you want a checklist that defines a person as a Christian by the percentage of "correct" answers she gives. that's simplistic and ridiculous. but it makes it easier for those without much in the way of intellect.

Edited July 1, 2015 by birdog1960

[Chef Jim]

i know exactly what you want. you want everything labelled in neat boxes with yes/no answers. you want a checklist that defines a person as a Christian by the percentage of "correct" answers she gives. that's simplistic and ridiculous. but it makes it easier for those without much in the way of intellect.

 

So you're a cafeteria Catholic?

[IDBillzFan]

i know exactly what you want. you want everything labelled in neat boxes with yes/no answers. you want a checklist that defines a person as a Christian by the percentage of "correct" answers she gives. that's simplistic and ridiculous. but it makes it easier for those without much in the way of intellect.

 

What I want, exactly, is for you to support your position that you are a liberal Catholic.

 

Not a Christian.

 

A Catholic.

 

You would think a person who has a letter from a Catholic church that affirms he can be baptized would be able to address the question head on. Why so much difficulty?

[birdog1960]

 

So you're a cafeteria Catholic?

if you refer to discord between church teaching and Catholics personal views, then the majority of American catholics meet that criteria: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/03/vatican-synod-on-family-highlights-discord-between-church-teachings-and-u-s-catholics-views-2/

Edited July 1, 2015 by birdog1960

[birdog1960]

 

None of what you wrote addresses what I asked. You can spend weeks, months and years talking about the difference between Catholics and non-denominational Christians, but that is not what I'm asking. In fact, you were the one who said you were a liberal Catholic, and it's almost impossible to get you to explain why your Catholic church does not subscribe to the Catholic church doctrine regarding homosexual sex as a sin.

 

It's a simple question: Do you and the church you attend believe that the act of homosexual sex is a sin?

ireland is about 85% Catholic yet a referendum on gay marriage passed by a large measure.

 

Same-sex marriage was backed by 62 percent of voters in one of the largest turnouts ever in a referendum in Ireland, marking a dramatic shift in a traditionally Catholic country that only decriminalised homosexuality two decades ago.

 

​are all those irish catholics actually not Catholics?

[DC Tom]

ireland is about 85% Catholic yet a referendum on gay marriage passed by a large measure.

 

Same-sex marriage was backed by 62 percent of voters in one of the largest turnouts ever in a referendum in Ireland, marking a dramatic shift in a traditionally Catholic country that only decriminalised homosexuality two decades ago.

 

​are all those irish catholics actually not Catholics?

 

No. They're Irish Catholics. They're not even real people, they're friggin' leprechauns.

[TakeYouToTasker]

ireland is about 85% Catholic yet a referendum on gay marriage passed by a large measure.

 

Same-sex marriage was backed by 62 percent of voters in one of the largest turnouts ever in a referendum in Ireland, marking a dramatic shift in a traditionally Catholic country that only decriminalised homosexuality two decades ago.

 

​are all those irish catholics actually not Catholics?

That's only because they allowed the clergy to vote.

[birdog1960]

then there's this including comments from several irish bishops. http://www.christiantoday.com/article/ireland.gay.marriage.referendum.meet.the.priests.who.are.voting.yes/54392.htm are they not Catholic either?

 

"Of course we cannot leave our religiously based moral convictions outside the polling station, but we do need to remember the difference between civil and religious law."

 

"As a follower of Jesus, the a la carte Jew who recognised when certain laws had run their courses, I am convinced that now is the right time to have marriage equality"

Edited July 1, 2015 by birdog1960

[IDBillzFan]

ireland is about 85% Catholic yet a referendum on gay marriage passed by a large measure.

 

Same-sex marriage was backed by 62 percent of voters in one of the largest turnouts ever in a referendum in Ireland, marking a dramatic shift in a traditionally Catholic country that only decriminalised homosexuality two decades ago.

 

​are all those irish catholics actually not Catholics?

 

Listen, we all understand how limited you are in your ability to actually think for yourself. My questions could not be simpler...and yet you still trip over your ability to provide an answer of your own faith.

 

How about if we start really simple? Some very basic Catholic beliefs, and let's see what you -- a self-described committed, practicing liberal Catholic -- are able to admit.

 

Simple stuff, really. Complete yes or no questions.

 

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, was born to the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died for our sins, was buried and then resurrected three days later?

 

Do you believe Jesus to be the human form of the triune God's Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

[birdog1960]

 

Listen, we all understand how limited you are in your ability to actually think for yourself. My questions could not be simpler...and yet you still trip over your ability to provide an answer of your own faith.

 

How about if we start really simple? Some very basic Catholic beliefs, and let's see what you -- a self-described committed, practicing liberal Catholic -- are able to admit.

 

Simple stuff, really. Complete yes or no questions.

 

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, was born to the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died for our sins, was buried and then resurrected three days later?

 

Do you believe Jesus to be the human form of the triune God's Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

how did Jesus answer when asked yes/no questions by pilate? he didn't accept his authority or sincerity. i don't accept yours.

[Chef Jim]

if you refer to discord between church teaching and Catholics personal views, then the majority of American catholics meet that criteria: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/03/vatican-synod-on-family-highlights-discord-between-church-teachings-and-u-s-catholics-views-2/

The majority of Americans love McDonald's and are obese. What's your point?

[3rdnlng]

how did Jesus answer when asked yes/no questions by pilate? he didn't accept his authority or sincerity. i don't accept yours.

You are flat out dodging the question that we all have been asking of you. If you have strong beliefs then you should be able to state them and defend them. If you don't have strong beliefs you find it difficult to defend them and end up being wishy washy and obtuse, like you are now.

[IDBillzFan]

how did Jesus answer when asked yes/no questions by pilate? he didn't accept his authority or sincerity. i don't accept yours.

 

Except Jesus didn't jump up in Pilate's face exclaiming that he was a practicing liberal Catholic like you did.

 

But hey...in the end, what's important is that you are a follower of Christ...an unabashed witness to God's ever-loving grace and mercy whose bold testimony answers Jesus' call to use your faith to witness and make disciples of others.

 

Or in your case, get a person at the Catholic church to write a letter saying it's okay to dunk you under water for a moment while waiting for the next poll to tell you what to believe.

 

To-ma-to...to-mah-to...amirite?

[birdog1960]

 

Except Jesus didn't jump up in Pilate's face exclaiming that he was a practicing liberal Catholic like you did.

 

But hey...in the end, what's important is that you are a follower of Christ...an unabashed witness to God's ever-loving grace and mercy whose bold testimony answers Jesus' call to use your faith to witness and make disciples of others.

 

Or in your case, get a person at the Catholic church to write a letter saying it's okay to dunk you under water for a moment while waiting for the next poll to tell you what to believe.

 

To-ma-to...to-mah-to...amirite?

well, he actually did. the temple money changers incident was an afront to the status quo and roman dominance. he declared himself at the very least a liberal, if not radical jew with his actions there. many historians believe that act was the percipitant for his execution.

 

and you are clearly not Catholic if you imagine immersive baptism as a standard procedure. perhaps this is emblamtic your limited knowledge of the traditions of the church.

 

on the last point, i fully agree.

 

but let's metaphorically turn the tables here:

 

do you believe that methusala lived til the age of 609, overlapping the lifespans of both adam and noah?

Edited July 1, 2015 by birdog1960

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

well, he actually did. the temple money changers incident was an afront to the status quo and roman dominance. he declared himself at the very least a liberal, if not radical jew with his actions there. many historians believe that act was the percipitant for his execution.

 

and you are clearly not Catholic if you imagine immersive baptism as a standard procedure. perhaps this is emblamtic your limited knowledge of the traditions of the church.

 

on the last point, i fully agree.

The money changers weren't agents of Rome. They were put there by the priesthood. A corrupt, calcified, amoral and backward priesthood.