Kelly the Dog Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Another issue would be that we have a rookie, a second year guy, a guy that hasnt really played the position of Wr that long, and a track guy who use to miss the off season practices in college and is in his second year, too. And yet we sat the one guy with experience to recognize coverages. Playing with a young raw QB and a veteran who joined the team on the eve of the season. That is not a recipe for asking the receivers to make a lot of correct reads.
ricojes Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Playing with a young raw QB and a veteran who joined the team on the eve of the season. That is not a recipe for asking the receivers to make a lot of correct reads. That's why you need a veteran QB in OTA's and training camp. That's on the FO, just a really bad decision there. Edited December 18, 2014 by ricojes
Kelly the Dog Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 That's why you need a veteran QB in OTA's and training camp. That's on the FO, just a really bad decision there. There was not a decent veteran out there. Orton, like him or not, was never going to come here before the eve of the season. That's on the coaches. You play systems to fit the players you have. They knew they didn't have a vet anyway. They knew they weren't likely to get one quick. They had all off season and OTAs and training camp knowing this.
BackInDaDay Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 Downing (QB coach) has been quoted in one article as saying EJ's main issue was trusting what he was seeing in his read and pulling the trigger on time. In not consistently trusting his own eyes there was hesitation and that hesitation led to a disruption in the timing of the passing game, thereby making it more difficult to connect on throws with his intended receivers. In fact Downing believes Manuel’s completion percentage of 58 percent can be directly tied to that issue. “People have a big misconception about accuracy for quarterbacks. People think that because a quarterback is accurate it’s because he has great aim with the football. It’s not aim,” said Downing. “There are some throws where you need great aim, but most of the time accuracy comes from being on time and throwing it to the right spot in the read" That sounds as though the QB coach is putting EJ's problems on EJ, not on the WR and WR coach. in the context of EJ - Downing's remarks were an honest appraisal of what they were asking him to do - assess the coverage, process that with with his receivers routes, choose your #1, and deliver the ball. to help EJ, receivers weren't given many options to adjust routes - if any. it's how the learning begins. all he had to do was trust his initial read, trust the timing of his footwork, and throw in anticipation where the receiver would be. what Downing didn't say was how that elementary design falls apart when receivers run sloppy or wrong routes. now add the introduction of route adjustments to the process, where everyone had to be on the same page, and it was just much, too soon for EJ. as far as Orton goes.. his experience in reading defenses, along with his development within an offense that includes adequate pass blocking, and talented receivers - should have had him executing well. but he isn't, because he's only an adequate QB, and we're still too sloppy. maybe Kolb's experience in Andy Reid's WCO could have rescued the offense for the coaches. ..and just to be clear.. this isn't an attack on Moore. just as - in retrospect - it shouldn't have been on Hilliard.
Kelly the Dog Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 While there is a lot to chew on in this thread, Stevie Johnson was traded for two reasons, one of which was of the timing issue and the kind of timing offense that Marrone and Hackett wanted to run which is the crux of the OP's point. The way Stevie ran his patterns, did not fit with what they wanted to do.
ricojes Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) There was not a decent veteran out there. Orton, like him or not, was never going to come here before the eve of the season. That's on the coaches. You play systems to fit the players you have. They knew they didn't have a vet anyway. They knew they weren't likely to get one quick. They had all off season and OTAs and training camp knowing this. There were a few vets out there for sure. but even going back to the previous season when they put their faith in Kolb, that was another poor decision. I know you can't foresee and injury, but Kolb was not even a good QB. Edited December 18, 2014 by ricojes
Prickly Pete Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around, but Kyle Orton is playing just like Kyle Orton has always played. And if an 11th game, Sophomore year EJM, can play at about the same level as a 9 year vet like Orton with these young WR's (and actually, at this point in the season, they are much more experienced than those early EJM games), maybe it's time for EJM? (I don't really think so) At this point in the season, I think they have seen the same coverages enough to have worked this stuff out, at least enough to get BETTER, not worse. To at least have a small menu of solid plays where everyone is on the same page. I don't see it. I doubt the coaches would have pulled EJM if bad reads by the WR's was this big of an issue. The first natural reaction and solution to that would be, bring in a couple veteran receivers (even mediocre guys, who can be found, or acquired relatively easily), not bench the guy you have staked your reputation on. Edited December 20, 2014 by HoF Watkins
John from Riverside Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Bottom line....they are not scoring enough points The inability for OL to not be able to block at the 2nd level is really hurting this team...just drives me nuts. You have to give runners a CHANCE to break a tackle and make a big play down the field.....not this 3 yards and a cloud of dust crap.
thewildrabbit Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Excellent thread, and very much enjoy reading most responses. So, all in all it really, really, really begs the question why not put the ball in the hands of the more experienced, more talented players at RB. (Jackson & Spiller) More running plays, more often, more run plays every game. Currently the Bills with 507 passing attempts vs 356 rushing attempts. The Buffalo Bills with a known very average QB who shouldn't be throwing 40+ attempts a game, and to the most experienced WR on the team in only his second year in Robert Woods. The Denver game with Orton throwing 57 times vs 16 rushes. So many extra players active on special teams, and that game it was a complete waste. In my view two entire seasons wasted with offensive coaches that simply don't know what they are doing. Edited December 18, 2014 by FeartheLosing
reddogblitz Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) With the miscommunication like the Intentional Grounding in the EZ, WRs running routes under the sticks, and seeing 2 WRs int he same place which I see frequently, it sounds like there is some validity that players are not in the right place. Just to offer some outside perspective on this. I saw Teddy Brewski on NFL LIve. They were talking about another team, but he said if players are in the wrong place, it's on the coaches. He was very clear about this. Players in wrong place = coaching. It's been my analysis and several other on TBD. Same probably goes for the OLine's problems with stunts and RBs not running to the right hole. Our offense was ranked # 19 in 2012, #19 in 2013, and #23 this year. Where is the accountability for Hackett? We're getting worse despite adding talent. Edited December 18, 2014 by reddogblitz
K-9 Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Excellent thread, and very much enjoy reading most responses. So, all in all it really, really, really begs the question why not put the ball in the hands of the more experienced, more talented players at RB. (Jackson & Spiller) More running plays, more often, more run plays every game. Currently the Bills with 507 passing attempts vs 356 rushing attempts. The Buffalo Bills with a known very average QB who shouldn't be throwing 40+ attempts a game, and to the most experienced WR on the team in only his second year in Robert Woods. The Denver game with Orton throwing 57 times vs 16 rushes. So many extra players active on special teams, and that game it was a complete waste. In my view two entire seasons wasted with offensive coaches that simply don't know what they are doing. Context please. GO BILLS!!!
John from Riverside Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Excellent thread, and very much enjoy reading most responses. So, all in all it really, really, really begs the question why not put the ball in the hands of the more experienced, more talented players at RB. (Jackson & Spiller) More running plays, more often, more run plays every game. Currently the Bills with 507 passing attempts vs 356 rushing attempts. The Buffalo Bills with a known very average QB who shouldn't be throwing 40+ attempts a game, and to the most experienced WR on the team in only his second year in Robert Woods. The Denver game with Orton throwing 57 times vs 16 rushes. So many extra players active on special teams, and that game it was a complete waste. In my view two entire seasons wasted with offensive coaches that simply don't know what they are doing. I just think that Hackett outsmarts himself.....a. sign of a very bad or a very inexperienced offensive coordinator. How about this When a team has shown they cant stop the run? You RUN THE BALL....especially when your D is making sure that you are not falling behind Against a team that has shown weak against the pass.....YOU PASS THE BALL......with a D you know is gonna get the ball back for you I know that seems way to easy to work.....but quite simply....it is the EXACT opposite of what Hackett does
thebandit27 Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 I just think that Hackett outsmarts himself.....a. sign of a very bad or a very inexperienced offensive coordinator. How about this When a team has shown they cant stop the run? You RUN THE BALL....especially when your D is making sure that you are not falling behind Against a team that has shown weak against the pass.....YOU PASS THE BALL......with a D you know is gonna get the ball back for you I know that seems way to easy to work.....but quite simply....it is the EXACT opposite of what Hackett does Not really from what the numbers show. Take the last 4 games for instance: Jets rank 3rd in the NFL against the run (in YPC allowed) and 26th against the pass (in YPA allowed), Bills run 29 times and throw 32 times Browns rank 27th against the run and 3rd against the pass (by same metrics), Bills run 30 times and throw 31 times Broncos rank 2nd against the run and 1st against the pass (again, same metrics), Bills run 16 times and throw 57 times (mostly because they fell behind by 18 points) Packers rank 20th against the run and 11th against the pass (same metrics), Bills run 33 times and throw 27 times. Seems more like they're looking for balance.
Buftex Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) I have watched a few games this season with a friend of a friend who was once a college QB... I know those aren't necessarily the greatest credentials, but he seems to know a fair amount about what he (we) are watching...he is really into watching game film... During the last Miami game, people were getting pretty down on Orton. The guy, not really a Bills fan, seems to think we may have an over-inflated sense of how good the Bills receiving corp really is...he mentioned it a few times this season...just gave me a moment of pause... Edited December 18, 2014 by Buftex
Buftex Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 I just think that Hackett outsmarts himself.....a. sign of a very bad or a very inexperienced offensive coordinator. How about this When a team has shown they cant stop the run? You RUN THE BALL....especially when your D is making sure that you are not falling behind Against a team that has shown weak against the pass.....YOU PASS THE BALL......with a D you know is gonna get the ball back for you I know that seems way to easy to work.....but quite simply....it is the EXACT opposite of what Hackett does Mike McCarthy seemed to have the same issue this past Sunday!
Kelly the Dog Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 I have watched a few games this season with a friend of a friend who was once a college QB... I know those aren't necessarily the greatest credentials, but he seems to know a fair amount about what he (we) are watching...during the last Miami game, people were getting pretty down on Orton. The guy, not really a Bills fan, seems to think we may have an over-inflated sense of how good the Bills receiving corp really is...he mentioned it a few times this season...just gave me a moment of pause... Watkins is a rookie. Extremely talented but still a rookie and needs some experience. He makes some mistakes. Woods doesn't really get the ball enough to show how good he is. Hogan all but stinks. Goodwin has been worthless this year due to injury and QB/coaches inability to put him on the field and involve him. So he's right. What he has been seeing is an average receiving corps, taking the poor quarterbacking out of the equation.
BackInDaDay Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 There were a few vets out there for sure. but even going back to the previous season when they put their faith in Kolb, that was another poor decision. I know you can't foresee and injury, but Kolb was not even a good QB. you have to understand that the Kolb we were getting was a shadow of the QB who threw for close to 13,000 yards at Houston inder current Baylor coach Art Briles. when Andy Reid drafted him for his quick hitting passing game, he was the 4th in career yards. then he became the best player that never played. i do think he would have helped Marrone & Hackett weather the storm of some sloppy coaching.. perhaps he may have offered some advice to the staff on breaking young receivers into the scheme.. doesn't matter now, but i do take all this junk into account when i crucify our coaches. they were dealt some tough circumstances, but overlooking the details they could control baffles me.
Prickly Pete Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Hogan all but stinks. I disagree with this. Hogan has some clutch TD's on an offense that is struggling to score TD's, and has played pretty well with limited time. To say he "all but stinks", but rave about Watkins talent, and claim that Woods just doesn't get the ball enough to show his talents, when neither has really lit it up, is unfair. Do I think he is great? No, but he is doing okay, and getting better. He is definitely worthy of playing in the NFL I think it's a big part of being a QB to get the WR's to adapt to your reading of the defense. Even if the OC isn't taking care of it, Orton is a vet who, by this point of the season, with plenty of time to go over film, and correct mistakes, and let the WR's know how you expect them to respond to different coverages, should have it together. I can see how this could be a problem for a young QB like EJM to take charge of the situation, but Orton has no excuse. They aren't getting more efficient. Edited December 18, 2014 by HoF Watkins
thewildrabbit Posted December 20, 2014 Posted December 20, 2014 I just think that Hackett outsmarts himself.....a. sign of a very bad or a very inexperienced offensive coordinator. How about this When a team has shown they cant stop the run? You RUN THE BALL....especially when your D is making sure that you are not falling behind Against a team that has shown weak against the pass.....YOU PASS THE BALL......with a D you know is gonna get the ball back for you I know that seems way to easy to work.....but quite simply....it is the EXACT opposite of what Hackett does I agree john, as in so many games this season Hackett would force his offense to play right into the opposing defenses strengths. It was completely bewildering to me, as was it to many other Bills fans when reading the game day threads. I do believe I read somewhere that Marrone took over the play calling at the start of the second half of the Green Bay game, and that was the reason for the nine straight run plays for 40 yards, and a FG. This play calling with mostly all runs seemed to settle down Orton somewhat for the rest of the game. That drive took nearly six minutes off the clock which kept the Bills defense off the field, and also kept Rodgers off the field. That FG broke the 10-10 tie, and helped the offense gain confidence that they could move the ball by running. It also helped keep the Packer defense off balance so they weren't pinning their ears back going after Orton. I really have no idea why suddenly this season the Bills OC has changed the last years run first offense into an almost all passing scheme like the Saints, Patriots run with an only average QB. He even tried that with EJ behind center against the Chargers, and Texans. Hence the benching. The Bills hiring Jim Schwartz was their best coaching hire over the past decade, and I can only hope they make a similar move to a top NFL OC after this season.
Manther Posted December 20, 2014 Posted December 20, 2014 Not really from what the numbers show. Take the last 4 games for instance: Jets rank 3rd in the NFL against the run (in YPC allowed) and 26th against the pass (in YPA allowed), Bills run 29 times and throw 32 times Browns rank 27th against the run and 3rd against the pass (by same metrics), Bills run 30 times and throw 31 times Broncos rank 2nd against the run and 1st against the pass (again, same metrics), Bills run 16 times and throw 57 times (mostly because they fell behind by 18 points) Packers rank 20th against the run and 11th against the pass (same metrics), Bills run 33 times and throw 27 times. Seems more like they're looking for balance. The last four games to me by the eye test have been better play calling. These stats agree also.
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