BackInDaDay Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 last season Ike Hilliard was canned because his receivers were bewildered by coverages they didn't recognize pre-snap, which led to running improper routes - often too deep or too shallow in respect to what the QB's read was, which often resulted in them bringing trailing defenders into each others' routes. the problem here was that our QBs were not savvy enough to know where the defenders were going.. making for a very sloppy, ineffective passing attack. little has changed this season. Marrone & Hackett began the mini-camps and the pre-season with a fundamental west coast timed passing game - receiver routes timed to the QB's footwork. i have no argument with this.. it's a sound approach that can build confidence in a young QB by getting the ball to a pre-determined place at a pre-determined time. unfortunately, NFL defensive coaches know exactly what they were up to, so when the games meant something, we were an easy read. So Marrone & Hackett were forced to have EJ get up to speed much faster than they anticipated. He needed to pick up the complexities of the offense, or they were at a disadvantage. he'd been coached to read the coverages, and make correct pre-snap reads on how each formation would be defended, but he was too often fooled, and his mistaken pre-snap reads snow-balled into a thrower's paralysis - no where to go with the ball! anyone who understands that they're watching a timed passing attack - whether it the WCO or some hybrid - knows that when the ball doesn't come out in under 4 seconds, one of three things went wrong: 1. the QB has screwed up up his initial reads and his attempts at getting to his 2 & 3 have also failed 2. the receivers have screwed up their individual reads, and aren't where the QB expects them 3. a combination of 1 & 2. watching a QB do very little other than throwing short, high or behind is symptomatic of a QB and receivers who are not on the same page. so Marrone Hackett bench the rookie for the vet. no problem there, as long as they were going to address the same problem they canned Hilliard for - the inability of the receivers to understand which route to run. maybe they thought they're old Syracuse coach Rob Moore was going to shore that up.. but just a look at those early games should have proof that the same problem existed. so thinking that Orton was gonna have that much more success in a poorly coached passing attack was either a case of not understanding the problem in it's entirety, or a refusal to admit they weren't taking care of their responsibilities as coaches. orton's catching a lot of heat for not hitting this guy or that - and a lot of it's warranted.. but we're still where we were with EJ because of 1,2, 3 above. i give Marrone & Hackett credit for moving Pears inside. they sacrificed an agile run game to help wall of the center in pass protection. overall, i think the O-line has done a good job in pass protection - giving our QBs enough time to execute a quick hitting, timed passing game. but they break down when the QB and receivers can't make the play.. and they can't make a play when they all don't recognize the coverage.. and they all won't recognize the coverage if they're unprepared. that's on Marrone & Hackett. it's their offense, and in the two years they've been here, they haven't been able to install the timed passing game that's at the heart of their offense. from the giddy reaction to our 'big year' from both the fans, and the front office - Marrone & Hackett will get the chance find another scapegoat this off-season for their failures.
RealityCheck Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 last season Ike Hilliard was canned because his receivers were bewildered by coverages they didn't recognize pre-snap, which led to running improper routes - often too deep or too shallow in respect to what the QB's read was, which often resulted in them bringing trailing defenders into each others' routes. the problem here was that our QBs were not savvy enough to know where the defenders were going.. making for a very sloppy, ineffective passing attack. little has changed this season. Marrone & Hackett began the mini-camps and the pre-season with a fundamental west coast timed passing game - receiver routes timed to the QB's footwork. i have no argument with this.. it's a sound approach that can build confidence in a young QB by getting the ball to a pre-determined place at a pre-determined time. unfortunately, NFL defensive coaches know exactly what they were up to, so when the games meant something, we were an easy read. So Marrone & Hackett were forced to have EJ get up to speed much faster than they anticipated. He needed to pick up the complexities of the offense, or they were at a disadvantage. he'd been coached to read the coverages, and make correct pre-snap reads on how each formation would be defended, but he was too often fooled, and his mistaken pre-snap reads snow-balled into a thrower's paralysis - no where to go with the ball! anyone who understands that they're watching a timed passing attack - whether it the WCO or some hybrid - knows that when the ball doesn't come out in under 4 seconds, one of three things went wrong: 1. the QB has screwed up up his initial reads and his attempts at getting to his 2 & 3 have also failed 2. the receivers have screwed up their individual reads, and aren't where the QB expects them 3. a combination of 1 & 2. watching a QB do very little other than throwing short, high or behind is symptomatic of a QB and receivers who are not on the same page. so Marrone Hackett bench the rookie for the vet. no problem there, as long as they were going to address the same problem they canned Hilliard for - the inability of the receivers to understand which route to run. maybe they thought they're old Syracuse coach Rob Moore was going to shore that up.. but just a look at those early games should have proof that the same problem existed. so thinking that Orton was gonna have that much more success in a poorly coached passing attack was either a case of not understanding the problem in it's entirety, or a refusal to admit they weren't taking care of their responsibilities as coaches. orton's catching a lot of heat for not hitting this guy or that - and a lot of it's warranted.. but we're still where we were with EJ because of 1,2, 3 above. i give Marrone & Hackett credit for moving Pears inside. they sacrificed an agile run game to help wall of the center in pass protection. overall, i think the O-line has done a good job in pass protection - giving our QBs enough time to execute a quick hitting, timed passing game. but they break down when the QB and receivers can't make the play.. and they can't make a play when they all don't recognize the coverage.. and they all won't recognize the coverage if they're unprepared. that's on Marrone & Hackett. it's their offense, and in the two years they've been here, they haven't been able to install the timed passing game that's at the heart of their offense. from the giddy reaction to our 'big year' from both the fans, and the front office - Marrone & Hackett will get the chance find another scapegoat this off-season for their failures. If you think you know so much, then tell us who the new scapegoat will be/should be. Or is this so you can avoid accountability while pushing your own propaganda? Enjoy the crescendo of the season and let's see where the chips fall.
Mark80 Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) OR EJ Manuel has accuracy issues (which anyone who watches college football could have seen in his games at FSU) and Kyle Orton is Kyle Orton and playing to the exact same level he has played for his entire career. Marrone deserves to be here, Hackett will be replaced in the off season, take that to the bank. Edited December 18, 2014 by Mark80
PolishDave Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 1. the QB has screwed up up his initial reads and his attempts at getting to his 2 & 3 have also failed 2. the receivers have screwed up their individual reads, and aren't where the QB expects them 3. a combination of 1 & 2. that's on Marrone & Hackett. it's their offense, and in the two years they've been here, they haven't been able to install the timed passing game that's at the heart of their offense. from the giddy reaction to our 'big year' from both the fans, and the front office - Marrone & Hackett will get the chance find another scapegoat this off-season for their failures. Well thought out post. Your suggestion that receivers are making wrong reads made me think. Based on how you described it, I am not sure I agree with what you think is supposed to happen on pass plays. It is news to me if that is what is happening. I was't aware that there were reads to be made by all the receivers that changed what routes they ran. I always understood that there was a hot receiver on most pass plays where that guy would change what route he runs and the timing thereof if the defense is blitzing, but only if the defense is blitzing. The hot receiver is generally supposed to break off his route early and expect the ball right after the snap. I didn't think receivers are supposed to change their routes otherwise. They might change technique in trying to get open, but the route itself? I don't think so. In fact, I can't see how an offense could ever possibly become efficient or effective if all your receivers and your quarterback are all making changes big changes to what is supposed to happen on a play and everyone is supposed to be on the same page? It sounds like it would be way way too complicated and cause way way too much confusion. And I would completely blame the coaches if that is the system they are trying to implement. I just question whether their passing offense is really that complicated. It shouldn't be.
thebandit27 Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 last season Ike Hilliard was canned because his receivers were bewildered by coverages they didn't recognize pre-snap, which led to running improper routes - often too deep or too shallow in respect to what the QB's read was, which often resulted in them bringing trailing defenders into each others' routes. the problem here was that our QBs were not savvy enough to know where the defenders were going.. making for a very sloppy, ineffective passing attack. little has changed this season. Marrone & Hackett began the mini-camps and the pre-season with a fundamental west coast timed passing game - receiver routes timed to the QB's footwork. i have no argument with this.. it's a sound approach that can build confidence in a young QB by getting the ball to a pre-determined place at a pre-determined time. unfortunately, NFL defensive coaches know exactly what they were up to, so when the games meant something, we were an easy read. So Marrone & Hackett were forced to have EJ get up to speed much faster than they anticipated. He needed to pick up the complexities of the offense, or they were at a disadvantage. he'd been coached to read the coverages, and make correct pre-snap reads on how each formation would be defended, but he was too often fooled, and his mistaken pre-snap reads snow-balled into a thrower's paralysis - no where to go with the ball! anyone who understands that they're watching a timed passing attack - whether it the WCO or some hybrid - knows that when the ball doesn't come out in under 4 seconds, one of three things went wrong: 1. the QB has screwed up up his initial reads and his attempts at getting to his 2 & 3 have also failed 2. the receivers have screwed up their individual reads, and aren't where the QB expects them 3. a combination of 1 & 2. watching a QB do very little other than throwing short, high or behind is symptomatic of a QB and receivers who are not on the same page. so Marrone Hackett bench the rookie for the vet. no problem there, as long as they were going to address the same problem they canned Hilliard for - the inability of the receivers to understand which route to run. maybe they thought they're old Syracuse coach Rob Moore was going to shore that up.. but just a look at those early games should have proof that the same problem existed. so thinking that Orton was gonna have that much more success in a poorly coached passing attack was either a case of not understanding the problem in it's entirety, or a refusal to admit they weren't taking care of their responsibilities as coaches. orton's catching a lot of heat for not hitting this guy or that - and a lot of it's warranted.. but we're still where we were with EJ because of 1,2, 3 above. i give Marrone & Hackett credit for moving Pears inside. they sacrificed an agile run game to help wall of the center in pass protection. overall, i think the O-line has done a good job in pass protection - giving our QBs enough time to execute a quick hitting, timed passing game. but they break down when the QB and receivers can't make the play.. and they can't make a play when they all don't recognize the coverage.. and they all won't recognize the coverage if they're unprepared. that's on Marrone & Hackett. it's their offense, and in the two years they've been here, they haven't been able to install the timed passing game that's at the heart of their offense. from the giddy reaction to our 'big year' from both the fans, and the front office - Marrone & Hackett will get the chance find another scapegoat this off-season for their failures. Thanks for the post. I know you're a stickler for timing, and I do think there's a lot of merit to the point(s) you're making. Two questions: (1) Will the coaches' jobs be made easier in this regard by (a) adding a more capable QB, and (b) the WRs gaining another offseason's worth of experience? (2) Getting back to the issue of timing, how much of a role do you feel lack of coordinated timing has played in the run game? Looks to me like holes will be there for the RBs on a regular basis, but the timing of the play just doesn't have the RB hitting the hole before it seals (which, as you know, happens in a millisecond in the NFL). If you think you know so much, then tell us who the new scapegoat will be/should be. Or is this so you can avoid accountability while pushing your own propaganda? Enjoy the crescendo of the season and let's see where the chips fall. To be fair, this is a poster with a solid history in and around the game. He knows his stuff.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) last season Ike Hilliard was canned because his receivers were bewildered by coverages they didn't recognize pre-snap, which led to running improper routes - often too deep or too shallow in respect to what the QB's read was, which often resulted in them bringing trailing defenders into each others' routes. the problem here was that our QBs were not savvy enough to know where the defenders were going.. making for a very sloppy, ineffective passing attack. (...) anyone who understands that they're watching a timed passing attack - whether it the WCO or some hybrid - knows that when the ball doesn't come out in under 4 seconds, one of three things went wrong: 1. the QB has screwed up up his initial reads and his attempts at getting to his 2 & 3 have also failed 2. the receivers have screwed up their individual reads, and aren't where the QB expects them 3. a combination of 1 & 2. watching a QB do very little other than throwing short, high or behind is symptomatic of a QB and receivers who are not on the same page. I know your bit about a QB and WR being on the same page is an under-appreciated "inaccuracy" problem in any offense. I don't know how you can tag the WR, especially if Hackett is running a WCO where the QB calls the routes (I do not know what style of WCO he is running) Downing (QB coach) has been quoted in one article as saying EJ's main issue was trusting what he was seeing in his read and pulling the trigger on time. In not consistently trusting his own eyes there was hesitation and that hesitation led to a disruption in the timing of the passing game, thereby making it more difficult to connect on throws with his intended receivers. In fact Downing believes Manuel’s completion percentage of 58 percent can be directly tied to that issue. “People have a big misconception about accuracy for quarterbacks. People think that because a quarterback is accurate it’s because he has great aim with the football. It’s not aim,” said Downing. “There are some throws where you need great aim, but most of the time accuracy comes from being on time and throwing it to the right spot in the read" That sounds as though the QB coach is putting EJ's problems on EJ, not on the WR and WR coach. Orton is doing somewhat better than his career numbers in Yards/game (250 vs 200-ish), A/YPA (6.5 vs 6.2), TD% (3.7 vs 3.7) and INT% (2.5 vs 2.1). So why would we expect Orton to do even more, and tag the WR and WR coach when he doesn't? i give Marrone & Hackett credit for moving Pears inside. they sacrificed an agile run game to help wall of the center in pass protection. overall, i think the O-line has done a good job in pass protection - giving our QBs enough time to execute a quick hitting, timed passing game. but they break down when the QB and receivers can't make the play.. and they can't make a play when they all don't recognize the coverage.. and they all won't recognize the coverage if they're unprepared. Hmm, well, different eyes see things differently. At the beginning of the season, one issue was clearly the QB timing being disrupted by pressure. The OL seemed completely unable to recognize and handle stunts so they saw them. The line is better since Urbik came in but still sub-par. Another factor is whether the wideouts get jammed on the line, which is a problem for young wideouts in the NFL. That is not a matter of route running; it can be improved with film study and practice and film study and practice but it's notoriously difficult to coach especially without an experienced WR in the room (I think this is something they wanted from Williams but didn't get) Again, what is your basis for tagging the WR coach? Edited December 18, 2014 by Hopeful
BackInDaDay Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 If you think you know so much, then tell us who the new scapegoat will be/should be. Or is this so you can avoid accountability while pushing your own propaganda? Enjoy the crescendo of the season and let's see where the chips fall. as someone eager to hear excuses, you tell me what works for you: inadequate guard play O line coach Pat Morris inadequate rookie QB inadequate veteran QB QB coach Todd Downing inexperienced receivers receivers coach Rob Moore Sr O assistant coach Jim Hostler
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 That all sounds fine until you realize that if someone like Phillip Rivers or even someone like Joe Flacco was our QB the "ill-coached passing attack" would be working fine. I find it hard to blame the coaches for a QB missing open receivers constantly.
Mango Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Well thought out post. Your suggestion that receivers are making wrong reads made me think. Based on how you described it, I am not sure I agree with what you think is supposed to happen on pass plays. It is news to me if that is what is happening. I was't aware that there were reads to be made by all the receivers that changed what routes they ran. I always understood that there was a hot receiver on most pass plays where that guy would change what route he runs and the timing thereof if the defense is blitzing, but only if the defense is blitzing. The hot receiver is generally supposed to break off his route early and expect the ball right after the snap. I didn't think receivers are supposed to change their routes otherwise. They might change technique in trying to get open, but the route itself? I don't think so. In fact, I can't see how an offense could ever possibly become efficient or effective if all your receivers and your quarterback are all making changes big changes to what is supposed to happen on a play and everyone is supposed to be on the same page? It sounds like it would be way way too complicated and cause way way too much confusion. And I would completely blame the coaches if that is the system they are trying to implement. I just question whether their passing offense is really that complicated. It shouldn't be. A few things. First off this is how Steve Johnson has basically made a career in freelancing routes. Secondly, yes receivers have to make reads pre snap, same as the OL, RB, and QB. Yes sometimes WR's will run different routes based on coverage reads. But more commonly it will be smaller adjustments looking for the soft spots in the D. So depth of route changes based on the read, when to make your cuts, whether the WR comes inside or outside. So on a post, Chandler makes a decision on when to cut that route in based on what he sees from the Safety and the LB. On a similar point to the OP, Rich Gannon was really hard on our receivers the other night for the exact same thing posted here. He said that they were a talented group but were making a lot of wrong reads and running a lot of poor routes given the situation. People here took it as Orton love. I didn't really get that at all, I thought he was hyper just hyper critical of the WR corps. By no means did it seem like a free pass for Orton.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) Well thought out post. Your suggestion that receivers are making wrong reads made me think. Based on how you described it, I am not sure I agree with what you think is supposed to happen on pass plays. It is news to me if that is what is happening. I was't aware that there were reads to be made by all the receivers that changed what routes they ran. I always understood that there was a hot receiver on most pass plays where that guy would change what route he runs and the timing thereof if the defense is blitzing, but only if the defense is blitzing. The hot receiver is generally supposed to break off his route early and expect the ball right after the snap. I didn't think receivers are supposed to change their routes otherwise. They might change technique in trying to get open, but the route itself? I don't think so. Polish Dave, to my understanding whether or not the receivers change their routes based on reads depends upon the type of offense. In the Erhard-Perkins style offense Gailey ran (a variant is also used by the Pats* and was used by the Giants during their SB and playoff years), the WR do indeed need to make their own pre-snap reads and adjust their routes according to what they see. If the QB and WR are not on the same page in how they read and respond, "WTF?" throws can result. I thought that was a big problem Fitz last year here, myself. E-P article from a couple years back that does a really great job explaining the WR responsibility for figuring out the route in the E-P system. A E-P play can be called in 2-3 words. E-P concepts and playcalls are much simpler, at the expense of placing a lot of responsibility on individual players, esp WR, to figure out their role. When effective, it is brilliant. It's essentially the offense many of the top teams are running A traditional WCO is completely different - the QB reads the play pre snap and tells everybody what route to run. A WCO playcall can be 5 miles long. It's much simpler for everyone to master at the expense of flexibility and of more memorization by everyone up front - similar plays run by different personnel can have completely different calls. Then there are variants, where the team runs a WC-style offense but incorporates concepts from other systems. I don't know what exact WCO variant Hackett is running - haven't seen it in press and frankly, the O may be too putrid for people to figure it out. But traditionally in a WCO the receivers would be told what route to run. Edited December 18, 2014 by Hopeful
PolishDave Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 A few things. First off this is how Steve Johnson has basically made a career in freelancing routes. Secondly, yes receivers have to make reads pre snap, same as the OL, RB, and QB. Yes sometimes WR's will run different routes based on coverage reads. But more commonly it will be smaller adjustments looking for the soft spots in the D. So depth of route changes based on the read, when to make your cuts, whether the WR comes inside or outside. So on a post, Chandler makes a decision on when to cut that route in based on what he sees from the Safety and the LB. Can you throw me an example other than the hot read on a blitz? I just can't imagine a wide receiver being given a choice of routes to run and expecting a quarterback to know what he is going to choose. That sounds insane to me. There is a difference between adjusting how deep you go on a route and changing the route itself. For example, I get that a receiver will try to find the soft area in a coverage, and that depends on how tight the defense is covering them. But that guy isn't changing his route. He is changing the depth of the route, but still running the same basic route he was supposed to run as the play was designed. Isn't he?
PolishDave Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Polish Dave, to my understanding whether or not the receivers change their routes based on reads depends upon the type of offense. In the Erhard-Perkins style offense Gailey ran (a variant is also used by the Pats* and was used by the Giants during their SB and playoff years), the WR do indeed need to make their own pre-snap reads and adjust their routes according to what they see. If the QB and WR are not on the same page in how they read and respond, "WTF?" throws can result. I thought that was a big problem Fitz last year here, myself. E-P article from a couple years back that does a really great job explaining the WR responsibility for figuring out the route in the E-P system. A E-P play can be called in 2-3 words. E-P concepts and playcalls are much simpler, at the expense of placing a lot of responsibility on individual players, esp WR, to figure out their role. When effective, it is brilliant. It's essentially the offense many of the top teams are running A traditional WCO is completely different - the QB reads the play pre snap and tells everybody what route to run. A WCO playcall can be 5 miles long. It's much simpler for everyone to master at the expense of flexibility and of more memorization by everyone up front - similar plays run by different personnel can have completely different calls. Then there are variants, where the team runs a WC-style offense but incorporates concepts from other systems. I don't know what exact WCO variant Hackett is running - haven't seen it in press and frankly, the O may be too putrid for people to figure it out. But traditionally in a WCO the receivers would be told what route to run. Thanks for the links. I will read up on that. Looks interesting. I love becoming a more knowledgeable fan.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) On a similar point to the OP, Rich Gannon was really hard on our receivers the other night for the exact same thing posted here. He said that they were a talented group but were making a lot of wrong reads and running a lot of poor routes given the situation. People here took it as Orton love. I didn't really get that at all, I thought he was hyper just hyper critical of the WR corps. By no means did it seem like a free pass for Orton. Well, as an NFL QB in a WCO, Gannon should be able to see it. They are rookies or young for the most part. Didn't Levy say "I hate rookies. Rookies make mistakes. All of them, even the best of them" or something like that? Williams had more experience, but was it used for good or for ill, events suggest maybe not good influence on the room and not "showing the way"? There are also those stories of Kyle Orton getting in players grill in practice for not running the right route and not getting open. OTOH, it's clearly not all that's going on and I'm not sure why the WR coach should be a scapegoat at the expense of everyone else, including Orton and the OL. Can you throw me an example other than the hot read on a blitz? I just can't imagine a wide receiver being given a choice of routes to run and expecting a quarterback to know what he is going to choose. That sounds insane to me. There is a difference between adjusting how deep you go on a route and changing the route itself. For example, I get that a receiver will try to find the soft area in a coverage, and that depends on how tight the defense is covering them. But that guy isn't changing his route. He is changing the depth of the route, but still running the same basic route he was supposed to run as the play was designed. Isn't he? Polish, see my other post please, including links to good articles explaining this. Edit: I checked the links and they both went to the same place, fixed now. Try the first link, particularly clear. Edited December 18, 2014 by Hopeful
Fingon Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Didn't we have a similar thread about Danny Crossman last year? Bring in some decent offensive lineman and a true starting QB and people will be gobbling Hackett's nuts just like Crossman.
ricojes Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 (edited) 2. the receivers have screwed up their individual reads, the receivers have screwed up their individual reads, and aren't where the QB expects them This was actually NE's issue starting the season, but they corrected it. As much as I hate Tommy Boy, early in the season people were saying he was washed up because he was missing targets, but in reality throwing over the receivers head or at their feet was the result of the wrong route. Two really jump to the top of my head for the Bills this season, the first was in Orton's first game, when he threw a pick 6 at Detroit. Looked like a horrible pass, but was it a horrible route read? Another was the intentional grounding call, he was expecting Watkins to run and out and Watkins ran an in pattern. But there were so many more. That's why even though I am not a Hackett fan, I really can't criticize as much because I don't know the original call, what changed, the receivers read, nor the QB's read. That's all over my head, but it's easier to just look at a play and say Orton sucks because he missed that pass and Hackett sucks because he called that play... Edited December 18, 2014 by ricojes
RealityCheck Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 as someone eager to hear excuses, you tell me what works for you: inadequate guard play O line coach Pat Morris inadequate rookie QB inadequate veteran QB QB coach Todd Downing inexperienced receivers receivers coach Rob Moore Sr O assistant coach Jim Hostler Nice try on the psychology. I am not taking the bait on a paradigm that you are presenting. You claim that there will be a scapegoat and then throw a multiple choice question back. In the midst of good holiday cheer in Buffalo Bills land, you are painting some dismal sub-plots that I just don't understand yet. I see the next 2 games as an opportunity for everybody on your list to be a little bit better than they were the day before and perhaps make the playoffs. As our defense shows, players can play better. Coaches can coach better. Why are you trying to be a bummer?
hondo in seattle Posted December 18, 2014 Posted December 18, 2014 Some really good discussions here but I don't understand why anyone is making assumptions about "propaganda" or "scapegoats." Obviously, every business is conscious of its reputation. The NFL is no different. What the public is told is always PR. That's not to say it's dishonest. In many cases, it's simply an edited version of the truth. And that's all I expect from Whaley and Marrone - a redacted version of reality. But PR doesn't preclude accountability. I'm sure Whaley holds Marrone accountable in ways we cannot see just like Marrone holds his coaches accountable and those coaches hold their players accountable. Whether they're holding the right people accountable in the right ways remains to be seen. Except it will mostly remain unseen. I really don't see any evidence that Marrone will create a scapegoat and I never heard him make Ike Hilliard into a scapegoat for all the problems we had last year. Leaders who assign their failures to scapegoats quickly lose their credibility and I hope Marrone doesn't play that game. My sense, based solely on the comments that get reported in the media, is that the players actually respect Marrone. Like the OP, though, I really do hope Marrone takes dramatic action to fix this offense. Clearly Marrone/Hackett have failed to create a really efficient passing attack (as the OP asserts) or an effective running attack. We're poor at sustaining drives, poor in the Red Zone, poor in general.
BackInDaDay Posted December 18, 2014 Author Posted December 18, 2014 Thanks for the post. I know you're a stickler for timing, and I do think there's a lot of merit to the point(s) you're making. Two questions: (1) Will the coaches' jobs be made easier in this regard by (a) adding a more capable QB, until the receiver reads what the QB reads, Joe Montana could be back there and the O wouldn't be efficient. and (b) the WRs gaining another offseason's worth of experience? that was my expectation this year - after the unit as a whole executed poorly, and the receivers' coach took the hit. but you can still find our receivers running themselves into coverage, and/or or dragging coverage across to their teammate by not getting the right depth in their clearing routes. receivers running free in the secondary aren't necessarily the QBs first read. if the QB anticipates the coverage correctly, he may attempt to pull a man away from where he wants to go (his #1 read) by changing formation - and thus the coverage responsibilities.or he might leave things as is, anticipating that the route the receivers (#2 & #3) choose will influence the coverage enough to make his play on #1.. but when the QB's #2 or #3 choose differently than the QB anticipates - in an attempt to find open space - the window to #1 may not develop, or close prematurely. then it's time to find where #2 &r #3 went. this is my biggest problem with our passing game - the sloppy, inexcusable mistakes that we continue to make. compare this to our pass defense - where the coordination of our linemen, LBs and DBs are on the same page for the majority of their snaps - including our reserves. (2) Getting back to the issue of timing, how much of a role do you feel lack of coordinated timing has played in the run game? Looks to me like holes will be there for the RBs on a regular basis, but the timing of the play just doesn't have the RB hitting the hole before it seals (which, as you know, happens in a millisecond in the NFL). the threat of a quick hitting horizontal passing attack can draw second level guys away from the point of attack when coordinated with a well executed cutback play. i've seen Hackett have some success here - getting motion moving one way, and attacking the other. it surprises me that we chose to stay so big on the O line, rather than agile. the marriage of well executing zone blocking schemes with horizontal passing games can be like watching a river run - one depth of lateral movement on top of another - and its won championships. i understand Marrone & Hackett's choice to try to stabilize the center of our pocket for EJ, but our guys can't take wider spreads because of their lack of agility. this limits their ability to get an angle on a guy that might clear a path for an iso or cross block that springs our RB. the next time you see our O linemen run blocking at the second level may be the first. opposing LBs still clog things up pretty good, but i think Hackett and Morris have done a decent job in keeping after it. but the idea that we're a run first team is wrong. until we get wide, and get moving we'll never see those cut back lanes. we throw to get lateral movement To be fair, this is a poster with a solid history in and around the game. He knows his stuff.
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