eball Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 @Kelly -- I agree with this, but I do think it's relevant to look at the ineptitude of the organization before Marrone got here and give credit for the best record in ten years.
Coach Tuesday Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 (edited) Here is what Greg Gabriel has to say about it: http://www.nationalf...hback-4125.html Being a native Buffalonian, I read the Buffalo News on a daily basis and there are certain columnists who know nothing about football who keep attacking Buffalo Head Coach Doug Marrone and quarterback Kyle Orton on the jobs they have done. Plain and simple, Doug Marrone has done an outstanding job this year! He doesn’t yet have a top roster but has kept the Bills in most games with their hard play. His game plans have been excellent. While Kyle Orton may not be good enough to win a championship, he is plenty good enough to get a team to the playoffs and perhaps win a playoff game. The alternative is to use second year man E.J. Manuel who has proven he is not a starting NFL quarterback. Why these few naysayers continue to try and look smart while at the same time looking stupid is beyond me. They should be more than happy that Marrone and Orton are part of the Bills' organization. Those two give the Bills their best chance to win. Edited December 17, 2014 by Coach Tuesday
Kelly the Dog Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 @Kelly -- I agree with this, but I do think it's relevant to look at the ineptitude of the organization before Marrone got here and give credit for the best record in ten years. Why? That proves that our standards are lower than the rest of the league. That's "relative" good, not good. He has had a much better roster to play with than any of those other coaches or teams.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 17, 2014 Author Posted December 17, 2014 Here is what Greg Gabriel has to say about it: http://www.nationalf...hback-4125.html Being a native Buffalonian, I read the Buffalo News on a daily basis and there are certain columnists who know nothing about football who keep attacking Buffalo Head Coach Doug Marrone and quarterback Kyle Orton on the jobs they have done. Plain and simple, Doug Marrone has done an outstanding job this year! He doesn’t yet have a top roster but has kept the Bills in most games with their hard play. His game plans have been excellent. While Kyle Orton may not be good enough to win a championship, he is plenty good enough to get a team to the playoffs and perhaps win a playoff game. The alternative is to use second year man E.J. Manuel who has proven he is not a starting NFL quarterback. Why these few naysayers continue to try and look smart while at the same time looking stupid is beyond me. They should be more than happy that Marrone and Orton are part of the Bills' organization. Those two give the Bills their best chance to win. As a former Bears front office executive, Greg Gabriel is not unbiased with regard to Kyle Orton.
GunnerBill Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Why? That proves that our standards are lower than the rest of the league. That's "relative" good, not good. He has had a much better roster to play with than any of those other coaches or teams. Because not every coach starts from the same point. Not everyone walks into a down trodden organisation which is only used to losing and has forgotten what winning looks and feels like. That context doesn't make a Bills 8-8 better than a Saints 8-8 for example, but the job that the Head Coach has done is surely not just judged on the latest result or the latest record. The body of work in terms of what did he inherit and what has he done with it is definitely relevant.
Helpmenow Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 The Bills would be a laughing stock if they fired a coach who took them to 9-7. No that would San Diego with Marty S. So Gregg Williams, Mike Murlakey, Dick Jauron and Chan did not change the culture. If they would have the talent they might have.
eball Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Why? That proves that our standards are lower than the rest of the league. That's "relative" good, not good. He has had a much better roster to play with than any of those other coaches or teams. He had to replace a DC after one season while dealing with one of the worst rosters in the league at the most crucial position. It's not "relative" better, it's better.
Kelly the Dog Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Because not every coach starts from the same point. Not everyone walks into a down trodden organisation which is only used to losing and has forgotten what winning looks and feels like. That context doesn't make a Bills 8-8 better than a Saints 8-8 for example, but the job that the Head Coach has done is surely not just judged on the latest result or the latest record. The body of work in terms of what did he inherit and what has he done with it is definitely relevant. What he I herited was a better team than either of his 3-4 predecessors inherited, which was made significantly stronger in his second year. I agree that he deserves a lot of credit for a lot of things. But few players on this roster went through careers of losing here like Kyle Williams and Fred Jackson did and they need no motivation whatsoever. Most of these players weren't losers before. The guys brought in to change the culture like Graham and Dixon were used to winning. I'm not trying to badmouth Marrone. I like him for the most part and think he should stay and deserves another year (unless they lose two and even then it's a toss up). I'm saying that he shouldn't be compared to previous losers, he should be compared to winners and contemporaries and other teams. 8-8 is average. 8-8 with this roster is bad. 9-7 and missing playoffs with this roster is just good enough, it is not good. For losers it's good. For the real world it's decent to pretty good, or even a failure. I was a Marrone fan before the season and to a large degree still am. But I said here and truly believed that we were a playoff caliber team and we needed to make the playoffs this year or it was a failure. It had zero to do with the 2004 Bills.
thewildrabbit Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 My biggest fear in all this is the Bills keep the entire offensive staff then lose Schwartz to a new HCing gig. Then replacing Schwartz with someone not as good, and it could get really ugly, really fast in 2015. While I now think that Marrone should be retained even if the team finishes 8-8. I just to hope to god that the Pegula's hire that senior adviser, as in someone like Bill Polian. He might be able to convince whomever that Nathaniel Hackett needs to go, and the line needs better players then Pears, Urbik. Then the new OC would need to not go pass happy every game which just puts more pressure on the not so great QB's.
Kelly the Dog Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 He had to replace a DC after one season while dealing with one of the worst rosters in the league at the most crucial position. It's not "relative" better, it's better. He should get a ton of credit for the DC hires. Both of them. There are a ton of crappy QBs in this league. This roster, IMO, counting the quarterbacks, should make the playoffs. There is also a good argument to be made that they shouldn't make the playoffs because of subpar QBing. My position is, across the board, coaches are to put the players in the best position to succeed and to win, and Marrone has done a decent job at that. Schwartz has done a great job of that, and he is a Marrone hire. Marrone to me has underachieved on offense considering everything.
davspo Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 I agree to some degree that the team's culture has changed. The guys are still playing hard. The defense is sensational. The offense is some word that is worse than pathetic. I know, I'm captain obvious. With that being said, assuming the Bills beat Oakland and lose to NE, Marrone is back with the condition that Hackett must be replaced. The offense literally could not be worse.
section122 Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 agreed, and even he has done enough goofy stuff to get canned. 1. reach for EJ 2. ...subsequent qb cluster!@#$ 3. overpay for watkins 4. waste a 2nd on venus de kouandjio Aren't at least 3 of these 4 on Whaley? Haha, I'm definitely a spurn lover. But to counter: 1) Orton probably isn't top 20. That's why I hated the move. If EJ was starting and progressing (it was 4 games), I'd have Marrone as a coach of the year. But our offense is so pitiful since Orton took over, it didn't justify the move IMO. We wasted a year of EJ developing on a guy who has a worse QBR than EJ had as a rookie. That's a mistake IMO. 2) Our offensive line was a strength under Gailey. We still have 3 of the same starters, and now it is a weakness. also, Marrone benched Urbik for no reason. That's bad coaching. 3) We weren't using Spiller, a career 5 ypc and threat to score every time, correctly before injury. 4) As regards to the barbarian point, that just hurts. Haha. But I think the Gailey and Jauron teams were so less talent than this years. I really don't think our record is any different with them as coaches JMO. In fact, it might be better if we had Gailey working with our offense. IMO, Marrone is closer to Jauron than an elite NFL coach. Basically, the Bills were the fat guy who never had any confidence. Well, we started working out and gaining more confidence. We settled down with a nice, heavy set girl because she liked us when no one else did. But there are much hotter girls who want a piece of us now that we are in shape. We can do so much better than Marrone, IMO. 1) I didn't care much for the move to Orton either but 2 things have at least tempered my disagreement. It appeared the WR group was very frustrated with EJ. Whether that is just me making assumptions or not I don't know but it seems they were all not only on board with the change but happy. The second thing and we have discussed it previously is that EJ may benefit from sitting and learning (as many qbs have) more than he would being thrown into the fire. Players have commented on how they like what they have seen and EJ has mentioned how much he is learning by watching Orton. 2) I don't think our o-line was a strength under Gailey. Where Gailey was better than Marrone is that he masked their deficiencies much better. The quick throws negated the need for the lineman to hold their blocks and made them look better than they were. Hell Levitre has a big money contract to thank Gailey for. He has struggled mightily playing in a more traditional system. 3) I won't argue this. What I will say is that I like the design more recently that the offense has done particularly more screens. I will be interested to see how Spiller does when coming back. As for the common complaint of Spiller up the gut being a bad play, although it doesn't work, it does have its place. If every run Spiller did was to the outside teams would be able to game plan to stop that. Much like what is going on in NO with Jimmy Graham. When he is on the field teams know it is a pass. So they gear up to stop the pass. 4) Jauron was a terrible HC. Nice guy, good dc, terrible hc. As for Gailey his offenses were middle of the pack. Much like Marrone's. @Kelly -- I agree with this, but I do think it's relevant to look at the ineptitude of the organization before Marrone got here and give credit for the best record in ten years. This is exactly where I stand. This was an incredibly unique situation. There are no overnight success stories in the NFL. Marrone has the arrow pointing up on this team. Because not every coach starts from the same point. Not everyone walks into a down trodden organisation which is only used to losing and has forgotten what winning looks and feels like. That context doesn't make a Bills 8-8 better than a Saints 8-8 for example, but the job that the Head Coach has done is surely not just judged on the latest result or the latest record. The body of work in terms of what did he inherit and what has he done with it is definitely relevant. Well put!
jester43 Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Aren't at least 3 of these 4 on Whaley? all 4 are.. that was my point. by "he," I meant Whaley
zonabb Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 My trouble with Simon's line of questioning was not that it wasn't a legit question, it was him suggesting, in a blanket statement, that fans are asking about this and its their main focus (to that effect). First off, last I checked, everyone's MAIN focus right now is how this team can make the playoffs. After that, the bigger questions are what the QB situation will be like next year and any coaching change comes after that, and likely after the OC question. The line of questioning was just out of line for this week. If he wants to ask the question, say "I want to know" don't hide behind unnamed, fictitious calls and tweeters. Man up and say "I think the guy sucks because A, B, and C and I want to know if he'll be back." Callers and listeners aren't paid subscribers, they won't stop listening if their voice isn't heard through Simon's line if questioning. And Brandon frankly cares about what his buyers and season tickets holders do.... and those of us that go occasionally or to every game will vote with out feet. And really, if he thinks these half-witted tools that call his show, the whiner line, or tweet at him represent the whole of Bills fans, he's a bigger idiot than I think he already is. The intelligent, rational fans aren't focused on that and on their Xmas Wish List, Marrone being fired I would bet in a survey (Someone do it!) ranks behind talent.... getting a better QB, getting some better OL, getting a weapon at TE, and probably firing Hackett. Put another way, if the organization solved those issues I'd bet most would be happy to see Marrone give it a try for another year. Those calling for Marrone's head who think that a new coach will have substantially better outcomes with this QB, line, and slow, mediocre TEs are fooling themselves. But then again, I've heard these callers butcher the English language, mispronounce player names, and contradict themselves plenty to know this line of thinking exists. It's actually funny that this constituency is the one Simon is suggesting are both right and deserve an answer!
stevewin Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 If you define making the culture better by attitude and confidence, I'm willing to give Schwartz more credit for that honestly. Most of the 'positive culture' we are seeing is on the defensive side of the ball - when you look at the offense do you really see the same thing? And even when the offense was looking more credible when Orton first took over, that credit was given to Orton himself for the leadership he was providing, not the coaching. I have to laugh when Marrone is given all this credit for assembling a staff that includes Schwartz. He made a no-brainer phone call to one of the top defensive minds in the league who happened to be available after the DC job became vacant. If anything he was lucky Schwartz returned his call. Give credit to Mario, Dareus, KW and Hughes for the Bills landing Schwartz.
section122 Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 He should get a ton of credit for the DC hires. Both of them. There are a ton of crappy QBs in this league. This roster, IMO, counting the quarterbacks, should make the playoffs. There is also a good argument to be made that they shouldn't make the playoffs because of subpar QBing. My position is, across the board, coaches are to put the players in the best position to succeed and to win, and Marrone has done a decent job at that. Schwartz has done a great job of that, and he is a Marrone hire. Marrone to me has underachieved on offense considering everything. Playoffs is a dumb argument. The results should be on the record as what record qualifies you changes every single year. If the Bills finish 9-7 and miss the playoffs that doesn't make it a worse 9-7. 9-7 would have made the playoffs in the AFC in 4 of the last 8 years. So about 50% of the time the record this team will most likely finish at was good enough. If they climb to 10-6 you have to go back to 2008 for when that wouldn't qualify. Record is what matters as playoff fate is many times out of a teams hands. The AFC North is likely what will keep us out of the playoffs because they got to play the 2 worst divisions in football. The Bills played 2 divisions where 5 of the 8 teams are above .500. The AFC North played 2 divisions that have 2 out of the 8 over .500. That is 3 bad teams that the Bills missed out on playing simply due to schedule. If the Bills got to play the Titans, Jags, and Colts instead of the Broncos, Chiefs, and Chargers (removed opponents they would have played due to division finish) you don't think this team would have a better record? That's 14 wins between 3 teams as opposed to the 27 wins between the 3 teams the Bills faced.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 17, 2014 Author Posted December 17, 2014 Playoffs is a dumb argument. The results should be on the record as what record qualifies you changes every single year. If the Bills finish 9-7 and miss the playoffs that doesn't make it a worse 9-7. 9-7 would have made the playoffs in the AFC in 4 of the last 8 years. So about 50% of the time the record this team will most likely finish at was good enough. If they climb to 10-6 you have to go back to 2008 for when that wouldn't qualify. Record is what matters as playoff fate is many times out of a teams hands. The AFC North is likely what will keep us out of the playoffs because they got to play the 2 worst divisions in football. The Bills played 2 divisions where 5 of the 8 teams are above .500. The AFC North played 2 divisions that have 2 out of the 8 over .500. That is 3 bad teams that the Bills missed out on playing simply due to schedule. If the Bills got to play the Titans, Jags, and Colts instead of the Broncos, Chiefs, and Chargers (removed opponents they would have played due to division finish) you don't think this team would have a better record? That's 14 wins between 3 teams as opposed to the 27 wins between the 3 teams the Bills faced. It's not about record. It's about whether the HC did everything to maximize the team's success with a comprehensive examination of every aspect of his defined duties and responsibilities. The organization also has a duty to itself and its fanbase to ask whether there are any better alternatives to who they have now.
section122 Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 It's not about record. It's about whether the HC did everything to maximize the team's success with a comprehensive examination of every aspect of his defined duties and responsibilities. The organization also has a duty to itself and its fanbase to ask whether there are any better alternatives to who they have now. There are better alternatives. Belichick comes to mind but I don't think he's answering the phone. As for realistic possibilities I don't see anyone I want to see so bad it is worth firing Marrone for. Harbaugh ain't coming (his o is actually ranked worse than the Bills), college coaches are a crapshoot, Gase is a product of Manning, Bevell is having a down year and the passing numbers are terrible, are there others I am missing (I'm sure there are)? Marrone hasn't been perfect, Marrone has made calls that have fans scratching their heads. Every single NFL coach has a lot of the same issues. Whether it is punting when down late in the 4th, not going for it on 4th and short, not playing the guy fans want. None of these are just Bills/Marrone issues. We nitpick every last tiny little detail. What some are missing out on by doing so is the most fun Bills season in a long time.
YoloinOhio Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 There are better alternatives. Belichick comes to mind but I don't think he's answering the phone. As for realistic possibilities I don't see anyone I want to see so bad it is worth firing Marrone for. Harbaugh ain't coming (his o is actually ranked worse than the Bills), college coaches are a crapshoot, Gase is a product of Manning, Bevell is having a down year and the passing numbers are terrible, are there others I am missing (I'm sure there are)? Marrone hasn't been perfect, Marrone has made calls that have fans scratching their heads. Every single NFL coach has a lot of the same issues. Whether it is punting when down late in the 4th, not going for it on 4th and short, not playing the guy fans want. None of these are just Bills/Marrone issues. We nitpick every last tiny little detail. What some are missing out on by doing so is the most fun Bills season in a long time. Seattle's offense has really struggled. They don't have a vertical passing game. Harbaugh's as well - major regression this year. I know the Bills have talent on defense, but I don't see the "talented roster" on offense at all. Their most talented player is a rookie. They don't have a QB. The best RB was out 7 weeks. I'm not surprised the offense isn't great. The plays are there, they players don't make them because they aren't good enough. I know most don't agree, but while the OC hasn't been perfect he certainly has designed plays that would work if the execution was there. Since no one knows the whole story with Mike Williams or Urbik, I have a hard time just assuming that is a fireable offense for the HC because they weren't/aren't playing.
BillsVet Posted December 17, 2014 Posted December 17, 2014 Playoffs is a dumb argument. The results should be on the record as what record qualifies you changes every single year. If the Bills finish 9-7 and miss the playoffs that doesn't make it a worse 9-7. 9-7 would have made the playoffs in the AFC in 4 of the last 8 years. So about 50% of the time the record this team will most likely finish at was good enough. If they climb to 10-6 you have to go back to 2008 for when that wouldn't qualify. Record is what matters as playoff fate is many times out of a teams hands. New England did not make the playoffs in 2008 with Matt Cassel substituting for the injured Brady for essentially the entire season. That year the Pats went 11-5 (not 10-6) and did not win the division. It's the last time they missed the playoffs and I don't recall anyone making excuses for them. Quibbling over what the standard is doesn't change the 2014 season's goal of reaching the playoffs. That may seem harsh in the PC world, but I really don't care. We were told all off-season how the talent had improved (not easily quantifiable) in 2013. Now this year it's Marrone has changed the culture, another unquantifiable concept that some are taking hook line and sinker. Your record is what you are.
Recommended Posts