ruben browns comments

[TSOL]

Orton been on this team 3 months. Coaches have not had that kinda effect on a guy thats been playing the game for probably 15- 20 yrs. 10 professionally. Its plain and simple what the problem is w him. Hes tired, not in shape, arms made-a-rubber. Hes not going to get any better this season.

Its why i have been and continue to think they should put in EJ.

And, yes, i know thats not gonna happen

With the offseason he had i just dont see where Orton is that commited. Which is a shame because i think he now even realizes that he might be part of something special here

Edited December 16, 2014 by mastershake

[JohnC]

How else can it be explained. And don't tell me he has always been like this. He has never ever been this bad. He's always been missed a few make a few. Now he misses the vast majority, even his completions. He's been getting worse and worse. It's inarguable.

 

Orton was a functional qb who is no longer functional. Watch the games and trust your eyes. His ineptitude is his own ineptitude and has little to do with negative coaching influences. He was mediocre at the beginning of his career and he is now at the point where there is nothing left in the tank that never had much to begin with.

 

The coaches should be given bonuses for having to work with a qb who can't execute a basic passing play. Whether you are well coached or poorly coached it doesn't really matter when you are simply incompetent at doing your job.

 

The reason he is probably very often told not to make damaging negative plays because he is incapable of making helpful positve plays. That isn't bad coaching it is smart coaching.

 

If he is brought back as a starting qb next year the front office en masse should be fired for malfeasance and sabotage.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

The reason I posted what I did earlier is beacuse I thought they correlated with what Kelly and I were discussing. Him falling off a cliff isn't unheard of and what we are seeing this year is him playing to his abilities or even slightly above them. Like I said this isn't bad Kyle Orton this is just Kyle Orton we are watching.

No one knows the real answer to this. Not even Orton. Or Marrone. Although they do know what the conversations and game plans were.

 

Where you and I disagree is somewhat of a macro and micro argument. You're absolutely right that he is erratic in single games, halfs, full games, three game stretches, etc. And always has been. That's exactly why he is a .500 QB and a middling QB and backup. He's always been that way. He will wow you and he will cut your heart out. We knew that is what we were getting. And we got somewhat of the good Orton right out of the gate, followed by the bad Orton. It could have been expected.

 

My argument is different from that. I agree with all that. Except I watched him in Chicago and Denver, even when he was bad, and I could be wrong but I don't ever remember him like this. He would have bad games, and bad stats at times, but he would always stand in there and take hits. He would always try to look downfield. He would try to make big plays. He would still make good passes, just not enough of them. He would miss open guys 20 yards downfield. He was consistently erratic.

 

He never IMO looked like this.

 

He rarely looks confident. He rarely makes good throws. He doesnt stand in there. He misses 5 yard passes to wide open guys. he missed Brown by 10 yards on a 20 yard pass with no one on him at all. He's unbelievably bad. This is not the consistently erratic guy he always was. This isn't the guy who stands in there. This guy is playing scared. Ive never seen him play scared. I think I saw most every game that he played in Denver because I was on the Tebow watch. He was never like this, even when his stats sucked. Not even close.

[JC2002]

Luckily with Orton I don't need to slant the facts. Bad stretches are the norm for Orton. Also the Chiefs won 4 out of 6 before Orton started playing what free fall are you talking about? He led the team to 19, 13, and 7 points it's not like he came in and set the world on fire for them.

 

The reason I posted what I did earlier is because I thought they correlated with what Kelly and I were discussing. Him falling off a cliff isn't unheard of and what we are seeing this year is him playing to his abilities or even slightly above them. Like I said this isn't bad Kyle Orton this is just Kyle Orton we are watching.

 

but you did slant the facts and the Chiefs had lost 5 of 6 before they went to Orton because they were starting some guy named palko and most felt they went to orton too late which is why they fired the coach and named Crennel the interim coach who promptly started Orton . But who cares about these facts when you are looking to put your on slant on things .

 

The problem is consistency there is not one thing that you can point to about that offense before or after Orton that says consistency . So Orton is a guy who took over after some weeks who is trying to find some consistency within himself in a new system meanwhile guys who have been in it since minicamp are still inconsistent and so this is how we end up where we are offensively .

 

When I listen to the coaches I dont blame hackett for Orton missing throws he has just missed some throws he usually makes . Thats on Orton but there are also killing penalties and negative runs and whole slew of other things going on as well. But when I listen to Marrone you can tell that there are some things we are trying to do offensively that we simply cannot do because of the Oline .

 

Orton has missed on some throws which decreases our margin of error add the Oline issues which decreases it again ,then the inexperience of our receiving corps, then the lack of a running game , then the the playcalling .

 

This offense has such a small margin of error right now that its maddening and Orton is just one part of it at this point . We want to take shots down the field but the plays we are calling to setup the looks we want to take those shots against either Orton misses the pass but if he doesnt the Oline gets blown up and if the Oline dont get blown up we get a penalty calling the play back and sometimes they flaty out know the play is coming and stop it cold .

[Kelly the Dog]

Orton was a functional qb who is no longer functional. Watch the games and trust your eyes. His ineptitude is his own ineptitude and has little to do with negative coaching influences. He was mediocre at the beginning of his career and he is now at the point where there is nothing left in the tank that never had much to begin with.

 

The coaches should be given bonuses for having to work with a qb who can't execute a basic passing play. Whether you are well coached or poorly coached it doesn't really matter when you are simply incompetent at doing your job.

 

The reason he is probably very often told not to make damaging negative plays because he is incapable of making helpful positve plays. That isn't bad coaching it is smart coaching.

 

If he is brought back as a starting qb next year the front office en masse should be fired for malfeasance and sabotage.

He did all the stuff you said he was incapable of for his first four games. He's completely different now.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[The Big Cat]

He did all the stuff you said he was incapable of for his first four games. He's completely different now.

 

I think you're remembering the first four games awfully fondly.

 

Edited December 16, 2014 by The Big Cat

[Kelly the Dog]

I think you're remembering the first four games awfully fondly.

 

Yeah because one bad pass, in one game, completely refutes us talking about him throwing some good passes. How is almost every response from you lately the complete opposite of the posts you quote from. :wallbash:

[GaryPinC]

He did all the stuff you said he was incapable of for his first four games. He's completely different now.

I kind of think it's a combination of things. Hoyer started off great in Cleveland then the bottom fell out. I think part of it is that once there's enough scouting reports and film out there, opposing defenses really clamp down on QB tendencies. With backups like Orton and Hoyer they don't have the talent to make certain situational throws consistently and I think that's what catches up to them. I know that's how Searcy got the INT's with Hoyer, just sat on his favorite pattern.

Then for Orton you have an immobile QB who can't throw on the run with a bad offensive line and I think at this point in his career he's a bit gunshy because of it. He may have a competitive, aggressive streak but his slide on that 3rd and 2 said it all to me. It seems preposterous to me that coaching is making him this way. I understand Marrone and/or Hackett may coach Orton to make safe throws but plays are run with a variety of patterns and a progression of reads. Even if his first read is the short pattern and he throws to a wide open deep pattern is the coach going to try and correct that? Coaches call the plays but QB's have the final decision.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

 

I kind of think it's a combination of things. Hoyer started off great in Cleveland then the bottom fell out. I think part of it is that once there's enough scouting reports and film out there, opposing defenses really clamp down on QB tendencies. With backups like Orton and Hoyer they don't have the talent to make certain situational throws consistently and I think that's what catches up to them. I know that's how Searcy got the INT's with Hoyer, just sat on his favorite pattern.

 

Then for Orton you have an immobile QB who can't throw on the run with a bad offensive line and I think at this point in his career he's a bit gunshy because of it. He may have a competitive, aggressive streak but his slide on that 3rd and 2 said it all to me. It seems preposterous to me that coaching is making him this way. I understand Marrone and/or Hackett may coach Orton to make safe throws but plays are run with a variety of patterns and a progression of reads. Even if his first read is the short pattern and he throws to a wide open deep pattern is the coach going to try and correct that? Coaches call the plays but QB's have the final decision.

I agree with all of that. The point is, however, IMO and a lot of others, we got the Orton that he always was in the first 4-5 games. The fact it produced some good plays and TDs made a good portion of the fan base say he's pretty good. We can win with that. Another different but also good sized portion said look at him, he throws some terrible passes, too. He's not that good. He's always been this erratic guy. And that was an equally valid point.

 

The last 4-5 games, though, he is not that guy he's always been. The erratic guy who makes some very good passes along with some very awful passes has been replaced by a guy that rarely throws the good and great ones that used to balance out the truly awful ones. Now he pretty much only throws awful ones. Not 100% but you know what I mean.

 

What used to be 5-good-5-serviceable-5-bad, which made Orton a backup and a 50-50 guy and .500 QB is now a 1-good-3-serviceable-11-bad. That's not the guy he's always been. it's way, way worse.

[Dan]

Orton been on this team 3 months. Coaches have not had that kinda effect on a guy thats been playing the game for probably 15- 20 yrs. 10 professionally. Its plain and simple what the problem is w him. Hes tired, not in shape, arms made-a-rubber. Hes not going to get any better this season.

Its why i have been and continue to think they should put in EJ.

And, yes, i know thats not gonna happen

With the offseason he had i just dont see where Orton is that commited. Which is a shame because i think he now even realizes that he might be part of something special here

I think that's a very valid and often missed point. His conditioning level, combined with the amount of playing time he's currentlty getting, is almost certainly catching up to him.

[K-9]

I wonder what plays Orton accepts and rejects in the meeting room when the game plan is being put in. I'd find that interesting.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I think that's a very valid and often missed point. His conditioning level, combined with the amount of playing time he's currentlty getting, is almost certainly catching up to him.

 

Agreed, very good point. Been a long time since I've seen even the most immobile QB with feet as flat in the pocket. No bounce on the toes whatsoever. Leads to too many breakdowns.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[JohnC]

He did all the stuff you said he was incapable of for his first four games. He's completely different now.

 

Teams adjust to players weaknesses and strengths. Whatever limited strengths he exhibited are being taken away forcing him to do things he is incapable of. The notion that he is different now is absurd. He is what he is: a functional declining qb who doesn't have the talent to counter what the defenses have taken away.

 

The search for explanations for his declining performances is a response of avoidance. Instead of blaming coaches and their strategies why don't you simply hold the player accountable for his level of play? Trust your eyes and you will have your answer. Stop over-analyzing. What is obvious is obvious. A mediocre talent in a precipitous state of decline. It's ugly and exasperating to watch.

[QCity]

Seriously go back and watch the Watkins "slips". The throws are horrible. He "slips" attempting to catch a poorly poorly thrown ball. The first one Orton short hopped it and the second one he wasn't even close, 2 yards in front of him and 3 yards to his right. It was bad.

 

He was doing it all day...

 

https://vine.co/v/OgOaedaAYza

 

https://vine.co/v/OgOzUvD9jr1

 

Those Vines show 2 terrible passes, you'll get no argument from me there. Those plays happened in the 2nd half, I was breaking down the 1st half (I didn't even re-watch the 2nd half yet).

 

The throws on the Watkins slips are right there, you might want to withhold judgement until you get a view from a better angle or watch the A22 tape. This is a great example of how a play can be misinterpreted by only watching network TV coverage.

 

Even the coaches on the sideline are telling Sammy, "If you stay up, it's a wrap."

 

Sammy Watkins wired for sound

[Kelly the Dog]

Teams adjust to players weaknesses and strengths. Whatever limited strengths he exhibited are being taken away forcing him to do things he is incapable of. The notion that he is different now is absurd. He is what he is: a functional declining qb who doesn't have the talent to counter what the defenses have taken away.

 

The search for explanations for his declining performances is a response of avoidance. Instead of blaming coaches and their strategies why don't you simply hold the player accountable for his level of play? Trust your eyes and you will have your answer. Stop over-analyzing. What is obvious is obvious. A mediocre talent in a precipitous state of decline. It's ugly and exasperating to watch.

I do trust my eyes. That is the entire reason for the analysis. He missed a player who didnt have a defender on him by a country mile when he had time and zero pressure. He missed a 5 yard pass with no pressure and no one on Woods. He threw about four good passes the entire game. That is not figuring a guy out. Wide open misses with no pressure has zero to do with figuring a guy out. I could have made some of those passes. Watch the game again if you can. He used to be average. Our offense would be fine with average.

 

Right now, Kyle Orton is not hitting passes that Erik Pears could complete in his sleep.

[T master]

It's funny because Orton is having one of if not his best year of his career.

 

Yah but can you imagine if Hackett would realize what experience he has in his QB & ask more of him in game planning ...

 

Orton has more time in NFL shower shoes than Hackett has in any coaching position !

 

The guy just flat out doesn't have the experience , he's got the talent he just doesn't know how to utilize it !

 

You give Gailey , Trestman , Fassel , & these guys are has beens in the NFL but if you gave it to the guys working in KC , Indy , Philly , this team would be unstoppable !!

 

I just hope this coach can see what is happening , he says every week for the past 15 that "we just got to keep getting better" & that hasn't happened if for nothing else the offense has went backwards !

 

You Have CJ , Watkins, Woods, Fred, Chandler, Theres 5 play makers plus the others that Whaley has brought in just to plug the wholes that have done great this team has the talent just not the coaching !!

[section122]

but you did slant the facts and the Chiefs had lost 5 of 6 before they went to Orton because they were starting some guy named palko and most felt they went to orton too late which is why they fired the coach and named Crennel the interim coach who promptly started Orton . But who cares about these facts when you are looking to put your on slant on things .

 

Holy cow all of this is just false.

 

Matt Cassell was the starting qb for the Chiefs. He got hurt against the Broncos November 13th at which point Palko took over. Orton joined the team on November 23rd. The coach (Todd Haley) got fired after the December 11th game (3 weeks later). You seriously think that it was because he didn't start the guy who they had just claimed?!?!

 

I still don't get how this somehow validates Orton. He led the Chiefs offense to 19, 13, and 7 points in that order. So he regressed there as well (heavy sarcasm). He didn't come in and do magical things with the Chiefs he came in and did exactly what Kyle Orton does - plays mediocre.

 

 

As for the rest of your post I actually agree with you. The margin of error is very small but that is, to me, in large part, because of Orton's lack of consistency, accuracy, and performance. He isn't the worst qb in the world. I believe yesterday we settled on somewhere between 19 and 22nd best in the league. Unsurprisingly the Bills offense is 23rd in ypg, 19th in passing ypg, and 18th in ppg. Right what you would expect.

[GaryPinC]

I do trust my eyes. That is the entire reason for the analysis. He missed a player who didnt have a defender on him by a country mile when he had time and zero pressure. He missed a 5 yard pass with no pressure and no one on Woods. He threw about four good passes the entire game. That is not figuring a guy out. Wide open misses with no pressure has zero to do with figuring a guy out. I could have made some of those passes. Watch the game again if you can. He used to be average. Our offense would be fine with average.

 

Right now, Kyle Orton is not hitting passes that Erik Pears could complete in his sleep.

 

Awfully bold statements about Pears' QB abilities! ;-) I get what you're saying about Orton and trust what you've seen of him in the past but also wonder if for whatever reason he's just declining. Didn't do training camp and wonder how much he works out and takes care of himself?

 

As I said that slide on 3rd and 2 spoke volumes to me about his heart being in it. He had at least another step or 2 before a defender caught him so take those and dive forward and try and reach that first down! Even if he didn't make it I couldn't fault the effort. What he did showed me his first priority out there is to protect himself before trying to make a critical play for the team. That compromises aggressiveness and could be at the root of his dropoff.

[section122]

No one knows the real answer to this. Not even Orton. Or Marrone. Although they do know what the conversations and game plans were.

 

Where you and I disagree is somewhat of a macro and micro argument. You're absolutely right

 

I stopped reading. :nana:

 

I have a different memory of Orton. I remember thinking he actually got a raw deal in Chicago. He outplayed Grossman and should have been starting over him. In Denver I remember him being terrible. (these are just my memories and admittedly it is a bit hazy). I just see a guy who doesn't look like he cares as much as we want him to. I referenced in the shout box the other day that he is Jay Cutler lite. Same attitude less arm talent. I think missing tc hurt him badly both from a conditioning aspect and a timing with his receivers aspect. I think he has taken a beating that he hasn't in a while and is 31 and it is harder to recover from. He only played in 13 games in the last 3 years and has now played 10 games in 11 weeks. There is a lot going into his performance slipping but to me coaching is waaaaayyyy down the list of things I think might be causing it.

[Dibs]

......

 

Ruben and Orton are GOOD GOOD buddies... Just one thing to consider

 

......

 

I consider it to nulify anything that RB has to say on the issue.......though there is still plenty of good discussion here aside from the OP's original RB points.

 

 

 

On a side note......in regards to the OL, I would say there has been a decent improvement there since Orton first took over (improving from putrid to mediocre).

[Buffalo Boy]

Sure. Unfortunately I'm on my phone so linking is out but Google Orton stats for verification (BTW if you type kyle Orton the 3rd suggestion is drunk lol)

 

Currently Orton is throwing for the second most ypg of his career, has the second lowest int % of his career, second best td:int ratio, and second highest completion % while attemprint the second most passes of his career.

Sure. Unfortunately I'm on my phone so linking is out but Google Orton stats for verification (BTW if you type kyle Orton the 3rd suggestion is drunk lol)

 

Currently Orton is throwing for the second most ypg of his career, has the second lowest int % of his career, second best td:int ratio, and second highest completion % while attemprint the second most passes of his career.

Take out the Dumpster fire....er I mean Jets games and what are his stats?