ruben browns comments

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

Answer with one word, yes or no:

 

If you were to ask Kyle Orton whether or not the coaches have coached him into timidity, do you think he'd say yes?

 

 

 

Also this.

That's the stupidest question ever. Congratulations.

 

Of course he and they would never say or admit that in public.

[K-9]

I'm sorry I just don't see how that is possible. The coaches coached him into missing wide open receivers. You don't think that sounds at all a bit ridiculous? It sounds far more likely that Orton is a 31 year old journey man QB who is regressing. He's been on 5 teams and hasn't stuck. He's a back up QB.

 

I think Orton has hit the 10 year veteran wall.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[The Big Cat]

That's the stupidest question ever. Congratulations.

 

Of course he and they would never say or admit that in public.

 

Exactly right. And why do you suppose that is? Because he's an aggressive, competitive individual with drive and determination. That's how he became one of the best quarterbacks on the planet to begin with.

 

Now, do you seriously think a person with that kind of pride and dignity WON'T (read; not 'can't') hit a receiver because he's been "neutered" by an offensive coach who's only three years older than him?

 

You honestly can envision this reality?

[section122]

How else can it be explained. And don't tell me he has always been like this. He has never ever been this bad. He's always been missed a few make a few. Now he misses the vast majority, even his completions. He's been getting worse and worse. It's inarguable.

 

I just don't get where you are getting this from that he has never been this bad. I brought up previously in this thread that statistically this is about his 2nd best year of his career stat wise. Some things from Orton's wiki:

 

2005: Orton finished with the lowest quarterback rating in the NFL (59.7) among all "qualified" quarterbacks. Despite the low rating, the Bears coaches repeatedly insisted that they were pleased with Orton's performance. The coaching staff asked Orton to minimize mistakes and to let the rushing attack and the defense win ballgames rather than employing an aggressive passing attack.

 

2008: From week 11 on Orton threw eight touchdowns, and eight interceptions while averaging a quarterback rating of 66.9, including ratings of 39.1 against Minnesota, 49.2 against New Orleans, and 48.7 against Green Bay.

 

2011: Orton entered the 2011 season as the Broncos starting quarterback. The team had a 1–4 start with Orton throwing 8 touchdowns and 7 interceptions as the starter, accumulating 979 yards and completing 58.7% of his passes

 

He was deemed not good enough by the Bears and replaced. He was deemed not good enough by the Broncos and replaced. The highest qb rating of his career was 87.5 he currently sits at 86.7. What you are seeing is not a ruined or bad Kyle Orton what you are seeing is Kyle Orton being Kyle Orton and actually a better than normal Kyle Orton.

 

Where do you get this idea that "he has never been this bad?"

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

I'm sorry I just don't see how that is possible. The coaches coached him into missing wide open receivers. You don't think that sounds at all a bit ridiculous? It sounds far more likely that Orton is a 31 year old journey man QB who is regressing. He's been on 5 teams and hasn't stuck. He's a back up QB.

No that is not in any way what I said.

 

I said they told him not to make mistakes so many times. And coached him to go for three points when we needed it so many times. And said unless you are sure, take the safe play so many times. That he is not playing the way he always played, and has lost some confidence, and by trying not to screw up, doesn't make half as many hard and good and confident throws that he was doing and always did. When he was playing well the naysayers were saying he's really not this good. He throws as many bad passes and he threw good ones.

 

And that part was right. But he was gunning the ball into tight spots and we were doing pretty well. That is the way he always played. But now he doesn't do that anymore. He doesn't throw good ones and bad ones. He doesn't look confident. He looks scared. There is a reason for that. I think it's more that he is told not to make mistakes. Don't turn the ball over. Don't force it. Don't throw balls to the endzone because we need the three points. And that has made him miss as many throws as he does now. He has no confidnece.

 

He's Tyler Myers in years 2-4 before Nolan came back last year and told him to be himself.

 

 

 

I just don't get where you are getting this from that he has never been this bad. I brought up previously in this thread that statistically this is about his 2nd best year of his career stat wise. Some things from Orton's wiki:

 

2005: Orton finished with the lowest quarterback rating in the NFL (59.7) among all "qualified" quarterbacks. Despite the low rating, the Bears coaches repeatedly insisted that they were pleased with Orton's performance. The coaching staff asked Orton to minimize mistakes and to let the rushing attack and the defense win ballgames rather than employing an aggressive passing attack.

 

2008: From week 11 on Orton threw eight touchdowns, and eight interceptions while averaging a quarterback rating of 66.9, including ratings of 39.1 against Minnesota, 49.2 against New Orleans, and 48.7 against Green Bay.

 

2011: Orton entered the 2011 season as the Broncos starting quarterback. The team had a 1–4 start with Orton throwing 8 touchdowns and 7 interceptions as the starter, accumulating 979 yards and completing 58.7% of his passes

 

He was deemed not good enough by the Bears and replaced. He was deemed not good enough by the Broncos and replaced. The highest qb rating of his career was 87.5 he currently sits at 86.7. What you are seeing is not a ruined or bad Kyle Orton what you are seeing is Kyle Orton being Kyle Orton and actually a better than normal Kyle Orton.

 

Where do you get this idea that "he has never been this bad?"

By watching him. I have watched him a lot. Even on Chicago and Denver. His completion percentage is a stupid stat to look at when he dumps off balls. Or the game that woods caught seven bad passes. Or his completions last week. He misses five yard passes. He didn't used to do that. He missed Bryce Brown by ten yards on a 20 yard pass and 40 yard completion. He's playing scared. It's glaringly obvious. And he's a super confident guy.

[section122]

By watching him. I have watched him a lot. Even on Chicago and Denver. His completion percentage is a stupid stat to look at when he dumps off balls. Or the game that woods caught seven bad passes. Or his completions last week. He misses five yard passes. He didn't used to do that. He missed Bryce Brown by ten yards on a 20 yard pass and 40 yard completion. He's playing scared. It's glaringly obvious. And he's a super confident guy.

 

 

I didn't mention his completion %. The number I listed was his quarterback rating.

 

I just am having the hardest time wrapping my head around the idea that he is playing scared because the coaches are telling him to be so safe with the ball. It makes much more sense to me that he either is scared because of the hits he has taken or just isn't that interested in playing football for anything more than money. Both of those are much easier to believe to me than him being "neutered" by the coaching staff. At 10 years in the league what would he be scared of? Marrone already stated that he isn't in danger of being benched. Is he afraid they will yell at him on the sideline?

[The Big Cat]

I didn't mention his completion %. The number I listed was his quarterback rating.

 

I just am having the hardest time wrapping my head around the idea that he is playing scared because the coaches are telling him to be so safe with the ball. It makes much more sense to me that he either is scared because of the hits he has taken or just isn't that interested in playing football for anything more than money. Both of those are much easier to believe to me than him being "neutered" by the coaching staff. At 10 years in the league what would he be scared of? Marrone already stated that he isn't in danger of being benched. Is he afraid they will yell at him on the sideline?

 

+1

[Kelly the Dog]

I didn't mention his completion %. The number I listed was his quarterback rating.

 

I just am having the hardest time wrapping my head around the idea that he is playing scared because the coaches are telling him to be so safe with the ball. It makes much more sense to me that he either is scared because of the hits he has taken or just isn't that interested in playing football for anything more than money. Both of those are much easier to believe to me than him being "neutered" by the coaching staff. At 10 years in the league what would he be scared of? Marrone already stated that he isn't in danger of being benched. Is he afraid they will yell at him on the sideline?

Completions and those yards from the completions are directly responsible for higher QB rating. It's obvious to anyone and everyone he is playing substantially worse.

 

Either of your explanations are a possibility. These are all opinions. I highly doubt that he is just doing it for the money. These are competitive guys. QBs know they are going to be hit. Orton had/has a chance to be a savior for a franchise and city and playoff QB. It's almost impossible for me to believe after four weeks of doing pretty well and most everyone loving him that he would spend the next 5-6 weeks deciding to mail it in.

 

Same thing with the hits, although that is at least a possibility in my mind. He hadn't played in two years outside of one game. He's getting a little older. He hadn't taken this pounding in awhile. It's at least possible that is really the reason. I believe him to be a pretty tough guy though, despite him sliding and flinching. I really doubt that is the bigger reason than being shackled though.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[section122]

I really doubt that is the bigger reason than being shackled though.

 

What I guess I am not understanding boils down to this right here. IF and that's a big if it is that he is "shackled" how does that effect him missing on several throws. The short pass to Freddy and the one linked above behind Woods are 2 perfect examples of throws that he just plain missed. How does being shackled lead to those misses? If he is coached to take the safe play and those are 2 very safe plays how is it coaching that is causing him to miss them?

[The Big Cat]

What I guess I am not understanding boils down to this right here. IF and that's a big if it is that he is "shackled" how does that effect him missing on several throws. The short pass to Freddy and the one linked above behind Woods are 2 perfect examples of throws that he just plain missed. How does being shackled lead to those misses? If he is coached to take the safe play and those are 2 very safe plays how is it coaching that is causing him to miss them?

 

Our big scary bully coaches, evidently.

[JC2002]

I just don't get where you are getting this from that he has never been this bad. I brought up previously in this thread that statistically this is about his 2nd best year of his career stat wise. Some things from Orton's wiki:

 

2005: Orton finished with the lowest quarterback rating in the NFL (59.7) among all "qualified" quarterbacks. Despite the low rating, the Bears coaches repeatedly insisted that they were pleased with Orton's performance. The coaching staff asked Orton to minimize mistakes and to let the rushing attack and the defense win ballgames rather than employing an aggressive passing attack.

 

2008: From week 11 on Orton threw eight touchdowns, and eight interceptions while averaging a quarterback rating of 66.9, including ratings of 39.1 against Minnesota, 49.2 against New Orleans, and 48.7 against Green Bay.

 

2011: Orton entered the 2011 season as the Broncos starting quarterback. The team had a 1–4 start with Orton throwing 8 touchdowns and 7 interceptions as the starter, accumulating 979 yards and completing 58.7% of his passes

 

He was deemed not good enough by the Bears and replaced. He was deemed not good enough by the Broncos and replaced. The highest qb rating of his career was 87.5 he currently sits at 86.7. What you are seeing is not a ruined or bad Kyle Orton what you are seeing is Kyle Orton being Kyle Orton and actually a better than normal Kyle Orton.

 

Where do you get this idea that "he has never been this bad?"

 

So what happened before WEEK 11 in 2008 ?

 

Why did you skip 2010 ?

 

What happened at the end of 2011 ?

 

What I guess I am not understanding boils down to this right here. IF and that's a big if it is that he is "shackled" how does that effect him missing on several throws. The short pass to Freddy and the one linked above behind Woods are 2 perfect examples of throws that he just plain missed. How does being shackled lead to those misses? If he is coached to take the safe play and those are 2 very safe plays how is it coaching that is causing him to miss them?

 

Why cant it be a mix of things ? Why does it have to be just one ? Why cant Orton have missed on several throws as all Qbs do ? Why cant the playcalling also have been bad at certain times ? he occurrence of one does not completely eliminate the occurrence of the other issues ?

[eball]

I think we need to ship Hackett, Downing, and Marrone over to the CIA, because if what is being suggested is the case they are extremely accomplished brainwashers -- they've managed to take a 10-year NFL veteran QB and turn him into a whimpering, pathetic mess.

[The Big Cat]

So what happened before WEEK 11 in 2008 ?

 

Why did you skip 2010 ?

 

What happened at the end of 2011 ?

 

 

 

Why cant it be a mix of things ? Why does it have to be just one ? Why cant Orton have missed on several throws as all Qbs do ? Why cant the playcalling also have been bad at certain times ? he occurrence of one does not completely eliminate the occurrence of the other issues ?

 

We're not talking about playcalling. The playcalling on the plays in question is very, very clear. Orton missed WIDE OPEN receivers, period.

 

The question is how him missing those receivers falls on the coaching staff when he's the one with the ball in his hands.

[thewildrabbit]

Jeez guys, why all the verbosity over someone we all know isn't that good.

 

The Bills OC just exacerbates the whole thing by forcing the man to throw 40+ times a game behind a bad line, and not running much.

[JC2002]

We're not talking about playcalling. The playcalling on the plays in question is very, very clear. Orton missed WIDE OPEN receivers, period.

 

The question is how him missing those receivers falls on the coaching staff when he's the one with the ball in his hands.

 

Every QB misses throws that is nothing new but it doesnt matter if Orton starts out 7-7 would still struggle because there is ALWAYS something with is offense , Everyone is inconsistent so missed throws is apart of it but so are many other factors .

[The Big Cat]

Every QB misses throws that is nothing new but it doesnt matter if Orton starts out 7-7 would still struggle because there is ALWAYS something with is offense , Everyone is inconsistent so missed throws is apart of it but so are many other factors .

 

You didn't watch the vines that WayneCubed posted. Did you?

[section122]

So what happened before WEEK 11 in 2008 ?

 

Why did you skip 2010 ?

 

What happened at the end of 2011 ?

 

 

What happened before week 11 in 2008? He averaged 222 ypg passing with 10 tds and 4 ints.

 

2010? That might be his best year as a pro (remember I said this was shaping up to be his second best?) and he had a robust 58.8 completion % while throwing 20 tds to 9 ints. The teams record? 3-11 before he got benched for Tebow.

 

End of 2011? after getting dumped by the Broncos he was signed by the Chiefs where he threw 1 td to 2 ints in 3 games. He led the team to 19,16, and 7 points respectively in those games.

 

 

 

Now that I have filled you in on what happened what was the point of you asking?

[JC2002]

What happened before week 11 in 2008? He averaged 222 ypg passing with 10 tds and 4 ints.

 

2010? That might be his best year as a pro (remember I said this was shaping up to be his second best?) and he had a robust 58.8 completion % while throwing 20 tds to 9 ints. The teams record? 3-11 before he got benched for Tebow.

 

End of 2011? after getting dumped by the Broncos he was signed by the Chiefs where he threw 1 td to 2 ints in 3 games. He led the team to 19,16, and 7 points respectively in those games.

 

 

 

Now that I have filled you in on what happened what was the point of you asking?

 

Was trying to figure out why you tried to slant the facts to suit argument .

 

The Chiefs were in free fall and Orton came in and they went 2-1 and just missed the playoffs by fg

 

You didn't watch the vines that WayneCubed posted. Did you?

 

I saw them and on that first one wayne is completely wrong . On that comeback the ball is EXACTLY where it was supposed to be and we just aw Woods run the route in the previous couple of games and make that exact catch but he didn't slip . People are in such a rush to hate that you are nitpicking any and everything . Orton threw a few ducks but that comeback is not one of them

[RuntheDamnBall]

Yet when people who supported EJ felt that coaching was shackling him and curbing his development...

[section122]

Was trying to figure out why you tried to slant the facts to suit argument .

 

The Chiefs were in free fall and Orton came in and they went 2-1 and just missed the playoffs by fg

 

Luckily with Orton I don't need to slant the facts. Bad stretches are the norm for Orton. Also the Chiefs won 4 out of 6 before Orton started playing what free fall are you talking about? He led the team to 19, 13, and 7 points it's not like he came in and set the world on fire for them.

 

The reason I posted what I did earlier is beacuse I thought they correlated with what Kelly and I were discussing. Him falling off a cliff isn't unheard of and what we are seeing this year is him playing to his abilities or even slightly above them. Like I said this isn't bad Kyle Orton this is just Kyle Orton we are watching.