The Big Cat Posted December 15, 2014 Posted December 15, 2014 I disagree. He publicly stated he would retire but that was purely a negotiation tactic. He wanted out of Dallas and a chance to compete for a starting job. He also wanted to keep the money he had pocketed and forced Dallas to let him go. If he quit, he would have owed them a lot of money. Questions about whether he wanted to play were a byproduct of his agent floating that he was questioning retirement, which we've already discussed. You claimed Orton's heart isn't in it anymore and he doesn't want to take hits. You supported this position with his supposed plans to retire, which is why its being discussed. No one is skewing the conversation. Then I'll concede his motivations. Honestly, it doesn't !@#$ing matter. Because the line between 31 year old ten year vet getting lit up then getting skittish is much, MUCH straighter than this fabricated, cockamamie neutered concept.
rumblefish Posted December 15, 2014 Posted December 15, 2014 bashing after a big win, Orton can't make throws, well A Rod wasn't much better, and before you come back with It, was cause of the Defense, to a certain extent that's true, did Packers defense play better than expected, again true, what we had yesterday was all pro QB and journeyman both having tough days, difference is the journeyman did not give up or lose the game, I am not sure what the all pro gets paid a year, but it got to be a h ell of a lot more than our journeyman, say what you want Orton has been a bargain this year so bash way, and when he chooses not to pick up the option and gets paid somewhere else for a good year, not great, and the Bills spend a ton of money on another bust, than you can B word about that, why any top rated QB would come here to get bashed even after a big win is beyond me
Dan Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 I think part of the problem is that Marrone and Hackett have neutered him. He is more of the gunslinger type. he will make mistakes but will throw a bunch of good passes too. That's what he did when he first came here. Since that time, and partly because the defense is so good, I think Marrone and Hackett are not letting him be himself. They say don't make mistakes so many times that he has no confidence throwing and he falls to the ground instead of making plays. They took the gunslinger mentality away from him and tries to make him a game manager and now he is scared to throw anything. He looks completely lost. He is missing 5 yard passes. Thats as much on them as it is him, IMO, I really have to agree with this. I was thinking during the game, watching the complete ineptitude that is our offense, and wondered why has Orton regressed so much? He's never looked like Brady, but he seems to have trouble with a 7yard pass now! He's getting worse.. almost with every pass. I think another issue is the overall design and implementation of our offense. We allow the defense to dictate to us in down and distance all too often. How often on 2nd and 1or 2 do we throw deep? No, we usually wait till its 3rd and long. But, that's playing right into the defense. Then when Orton has to rush because a blitzer is coming, we blame him for the bad pass. Or a playaction slant across the middle when the palyaction causes the LBs to stay in the middle of the field. We blame the players for not connecting. It just seems all too often, the plays don't isolate our playmakers in the defense, but almost draws defenders to them. Look, by no means is Orton a great QB. Or is Pears a great guard. But, our offensive game plans seem to exacerbate the situation more than anything else.
JC2002 Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 I agree. I just re-watched the first half of the game. Our offense was given the ball 7 times (not counting the Thigpen runback) and totaled 3 points. Orton was probably directly responsible for 1 of those drives ending -- the one with the INT. Every other drive was stymied with the run getting completely stuffed, penalties, receivers slipping and falling down, dropped passes, or missed blocks resulting in sacks/pressure. There was an ugly 5 yd incompletion to Freddie, but that was on a 3rd and 18 and it didn't look like he was going to get the 1st even if he caught it. This is on point However what Hackett is doing is exactly what some were calling for prior to the bye . You go back and read those postgame threads and all anyone ever talked about were the sacks and turnovers despite us going down field and having some success . When you are dealing with a inexperienced offense you have to take to play fast and take the mistakes because we wont be disciplined or experienced enough to mount 15 play 80 yards drives all the time . When you try and bet on the 15 play drives you get exactly what you described tons of mistakes and stymied drives . As for defenses they know Orton likes the seam routes and the back shoulders throw but the issues are that our offense is limited by its inexperience and lack of personnel in keys areas because we have seen Orton make just about every type of throw in the short time hes been here . We simply dont have the counters that are needed for a team that struggles to run the ball . We cant come out and attack teams like we did with Chandler against NE every game because Chandlers not consistent enough. None of our receivers prior to this year have done anything so this is basically their first experience with defense having their eyes on them so its a learning experience for them to adjust to the way defenses have adjusted to them. This puts pressure on everyone on the offense to play mistake free and thats extremely difficult to do even for veteran offenses . One of the things I always think back on is that drive that went over a 100 yards on the final drive . We had penalties,sacks etc but the offense but it didnt matter because they continued attacking and looking for the big play . We need to get back to that even if means running some hurry up early in the game .
Wayne Cubed Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 I agree. I just re-watched the first half of the game. Our offense was given the ball 7 times (not counting the Thigpen runback) and totaled 3 points. Orton was probably directly responsible for 1 of those drives ending -- the one with the INT. Every other drive was stymied with the run getting completely stuffed, penalties, receivers slipping and falling down, dropped passes, or missed blocks resulting in sacks/pressure. There was an ugly 5 yd incompletion to Freddie, but that was on a 3rd and 18 and it didn't look like he was going to get the 1st even if he caught it. I'm sorry but I disagree. I finally went back and watched the first half. Orton had at least 6 bad plays. Two sacks, where if Orton could just move in the pocket a little it would bought him more time. The pressure wasn't that bad, Orton just needed to move a bit in the pocket. The int which you pointed to, but the play directly before that he missed a wide open Woods when he threw the ball way too high. Woods could have caught it but that throw was bad. The series before that he misses Watkins on a come back at the first down marker, yes Watkins slipped but he slipped because he was attempting to catch a widely inaccurate throw. He threw the ball 2 yards in front of Watkins. He actually did that twice, threw a terrible ball in front of Watkins. On 3rd down of that series he choose to go to Hogan, who is 5 yards short of the marker instead of Chandler who is at the marker and Watkins who is 1-on-1 and streaking down the sideline. Bad decision there. It's Orton. Yea there were some bad penalties there but Orton certainly wasn't play good at all. Missing throws and taking sacks. Also making poor decisions on where to go with the ball.
ganesh Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 I think part of the problem is that Marrone and Hackett have neutered him. He is more of the gunslinger type. he will make mistakes but will throw a bunch of good passes too. That's what he did when he first came here. Since that time, and partly because the defense is so good, I think Marrone and Hackett are not letting him be himself. They say don't make mistakes so many times that he has no confidence throwing and he falls to the ground instead of making plays. They took the gunslinger mentality away from him and tries to make him a game manager and now he is scared to throw anything. He looks completely lost. He is missing 5 yard passes. Thats as much on them as it is him, IMO, Orton floated many balls against the Packers which went atleast 10 yards from the receiver. Where Orton has been good is the fast/accurate short passes. It helps move the chains. Someone pointed out this earlier; One of the biggest reason this offense is struggling is the average yards gained on 1st down. I believe we are close to dead last in the NFL. When you are in 2-10 and 3 rd and long, it is going to be tough. Getting Spiller back this week may do wonders to Orton.
QCity Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 I'm sorry but I disagree. I finally went back and watched the first half. Orton had at least 6 bad plays. Two sacks, where if Orton could just move in the pocket a little it would bought him more time. The pressure wasn't that bad, Orton just needed to move a bit in the pocket. The int which you pointed to, but the play directly before that he missed a wide open Woods when he threw the ball way too high. Woods could have caught it but that throw was bad. The series before that he misses Watkins on a come back at the first down marker, yes Watkins slipped but he slipped because he was attempting to catch a widely inaccurate throw. He threw the ball 2 yards in front of Watkins. He actually did that twice, threw a terrible ball in front of Watkins. On 3rd down of that series he choose to go to Hogan, who is 5 yards short of the marker instead of Chandler who is at the marker and Watkins who is 1-on-1 and streaking down the sideline. Bad decision there. It's Orton. Yea there were some bad penalties there but Orton certainly wasn't play good at all. Missing throws and taking sacks. Also making poor decisions on where to go with the ball. We're going to have to disagree then. Again, I'll admit that Orton played lousy, but Woods has to catch that ball -- it hit him cleanly in the hands. I know it's hard to blame Watkins for anything around here, but he slipped and fell twice and it wasn't because of poor throws. His demeanor after the second slip clearly showed how frustrated he was with himself. As far as the sacks go, KO is just never going to be an elusive QB. He's a statue and the book on him is to get him to move his feet. You can put most of the blame on him for the sacks, but the interior of the line has to give him more room to step up. I thought the 6yd pass to Hogan was a very interesting play. Watkins was running down the sidelines, but he wasn't open. Woods ran a useless 2 yd out and Hogan ran a 6yd hook, where if he catches it, all of his momentum is heading back towards the LOS on a 3rd and 12. Freddie is a safety valve and Chandler is probably the best option, but Burnett looked like he read that play well and was ready to step in front of him. I guess you can say Chandler would have been the best option but it would have been a dangerous pass and certainly not a sure 1st down. The bigger question is why would you call a play on 3rd and 12 where 3 of your 5 possible targets have no realistic chance to get a 1st down if they catch it?
NoSaint Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 Orton floated many balls against the Packers which went atleast 10 yards from the receiver. Where Orton has been good is the fast/accurate short passes. It helps move the chains. Someone pointed out this earlier; One of the biggest reason this offense is struggling is the average yards gained on 1st down. I believe we are close to dead last in the NFL. When you are in 2-10 and 3 rd and long, it is going to be tough. Getting Spiller back this week may do wonders to Orton. awhile back - maybe a month into the orton experience - we actually saw stats that they were average to good on first down and second down was a complete trainwreck. it surprised a lot of people. id be curious if its still true.
BillnutinHouston Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 I,don't think Orton has time in the pocket for the deep routes too develop. The interior line is horrid. I agree with this.
kota Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 Orton Sucks period. Orton throughout his career has started hot and then sucked down the stretch that leads to him being traded, released, or benched. It's been the same thing on every team.
Wayne Cubed Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) We're going to have to disagree then. Again, I'll admit that Orton played lousy, but Woods has to catch that ball -- it hit him cleanly in the hands. I know it's hard to blame Watkins for anything around here, but he slipped and fell twice and it wasn't because of poor throws. His demeanor after the second slip clearly showed how frustrated he was with himself. As far as the sacks go, KO is just never going to be an elusive QB. He's a statue and the book on him is to get him to move his feet. You can put most of the blame on him for the sacks, but the interior of the line has to give him more room to step up. I thought the 6yd pass to Hogan was a very interesting play. Watkins was running down the sidelines, but he wasn't open. Woods ran a useless 2 yd out and Hogan ran a 6yd hook, where if he catches it, all of his momentum is heading back towards the LOS on a 3rd and 12. Freddie is a safety valve and Chandler is probably the best option, but Burnett looked like he read that play well and was ready to step in front of him. I guess you can say Chandler would have been the best option but it would have been a dangerous pass and certainly not a sure 1st down. The bigger question is why would you call a play on 3rd and 12 where 3 of your 5 possible targets have no realistic chance to get a 1st down if they catch it? Seriously go back and watch the Watkins "slips". The throws are horrible. He "slips" attempting to catch a poorly poorly thrown ball. The first one Orton short hopped it and the second one he wasn't even close, 2 yards in front of him and 3 yards to his right. It was bad. He was doing it all day... https://vine.co/v/OgOaedaAYza https://vine.co/v/OgOzUvD9jr1 Edited December 16, 2014 by Wayne Cubed
section122 Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 Wayne that second play is a perfect example of there being a play to be made and the qb not making it. Woods was wide open with room to run and easily would have gotten the first down and maybe more. That has to be one of the easier throws to make as well. So frustrating to watch.
Wayne Cubed Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 Wayne that second play is a perfect example of there being a play to be made and the qb not making it. Woods was wide open with room to run and easily would have gotten the first down and maybe more. That has to be one of the easier throws to make as well. So frustrating to watch. It was unbelievably frustrating. In the first play you see he misses Watkins, well if you look Gray is running across the field wide open too. He just leaves a lot of plays on the field.
The Big Cat Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 Seriously go back and watch the Watkins "slips". The throws are horrible. He "slips" attempting to catch a poorly poorly thrown ball. The first one Orton short hopped it and the second one he wasn't even close, 2 yards in front of him and 3 yards to his right. It was bad. He was doing it all day... https://vine.co/v/OgOaedaAYza https://vine.co/v/OgOzUvD9jr1 Yikes, also had Gray WIDE open Sammy miss. It was unbelievably frustrating. In the first play you see he misses Watkins, well if you look Gray is running across the field wide open too. He just leaves a lot of plays on the field. That's Hackett's fault. Needs to find a way to design plays Orton can make. Orton's been neutered. Too afraid to throw to wide open receivers.
Kelly the Dog Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 (edited) Yikes, also had Gray WIDE open Sammy miss. That's Hackett's fault. Needs to find a way to design plays Orton can make. Orton's been neutered. Too afraid to throw to wide open receivers. How else can it be explained. And don't tell me he has always been like this. He has never ever been this bad. He's always been missed a few make a few. Now he misses the vast majority, even his completions. He's been getting worse and worse. It's inarguable. Edited December 16, 2014 by Kelly the Dog
section122 Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 It was unbelievably frustrating. In the first play you see he misses Watkins, well if you look Gray is running across the field wide open too. He just leaves a lot of plays on the field. I didn't notice that but after watching it again he is open as is Fred on a route out of the backfield. So he had 3 out of 5 options very open on that play and threw an incomplete pass. Like I said plays like these make me question the players and not Hackett and his much maligned scheme.
eball Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 How else can it be explained. And don't tell me he has always been like this. He has never ever been this bad. He's always been missed a few make a few. Now he misses the vast majority, even his completions. He's been getting worse and worse. It's inarguable. If Kyle Orton is now such an incredible pu$$catore that he is "afraid" to throw the ball decisively to an open receiver for fear of coaching criticism or benching, I hope the Raiders knock him into yesterday and we get EJ back out there.
The Big Cat Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 How else can it be explained. And don't tell me he has always been like this. He has never ever been this bad. He's always been missed a few make a few. Now he misses the vast majority, even his completions. He's been getting worse and worse. It's inarguable. Answer with one word, yes or no: If you were to ask Kyle Orton whether or not the coaches have coached him into timidity, do you think he'd say yes? If Kyle Orton is now such an incredible pu$$catore that he is "afraid" to throw the ball decisively to an open receiver for fear of coaching criticism or benching, I hope the Raiders knock him into yesterday and we get EJ back out there. Also this.
Wayne Cubed Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 How else can it be explained. And don't tell me he has always been like this. He has never ever been this bad. He's always been missed a few make a few. Now he misses the vast majority, even his completions. He's been getting worse and worse. It's inarguable. I'm sorry I just don't see how that is possible. The coaches coached him into missing wide open receivers. You don't think that sounds at all a bit ridiculous? It sounds far more likely that Orton is a 31 year old journey man QB who is regressing. He's been on 5 teams and hasn't stuck. He's a back up QB.
K-9 Posted December 16, 2014 Posted December 16, 2014 Seriously go back and watch the Watkins "slips". The throws are horrible. He "slips" attempting to catch a poorly poorly thrown ball. The first one Orton short hopped it and the second one he wasn't even close, 2 yards in front of him and 3 yards to his right. It was bad. He was doing it all day... https://vine.co/v/OgOaedaAYza https://vine.co/v/OgOzUvD9jr1 WTF (as in WHERE) was the pass in the first vine going? At the very least that's a first and goal if he just makes a routine throw for a professional QB. Sammy was WIDE open, not just NFL open. Look, if this were the atypical thing from him, I'd give Orton the benefit of the doubt. But it's too routine for him. I've seen enough to convince me. GO BILLS!!!
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