Marrone in 2015

[section122]

This is just getting to be a weird circular argument I guess. It really comes down to whether or not you believe the players on offense are put in advantageous positions vs. opposing defenses? That is the coordinator's job. We know that we need more talent (everyone does) but that is irrelevant to this conversation. If you believe that Hackett gives his team the schematic and game planning advantages that Schwartz does than you believe that he's the guy. Many of us have cited reasons why we don't believe that to be the case (personnel groupings, predictability, etc...). This in no way is any of us saying that we don't want better players. The coaches' job is to create advantages & I do not believe that he does that well at all.

 

Don't the all 22s regularly show plays left on the field by the qb? I think that they are put in advantageous situations. I think that a talent increase will help show that.

 

If you want to go off on a Lee Smith tangent or the one 3rd and 1 play that got stuffed that is fine. I just think an improved talent level will magically make the coaches look a lot better than they do now. I want Hackett back next year not for just for continuity's sake but because I have been impressed with what he has been able to squeeze out of the talent we have. I really think the talent level on the offensive side is that poor. Look at this list:

 

Chandler - cut ww pickup, left to dangle on the market and came back bc there were no other offers

 

Pears/Urbik - ww pickups cut from their original teams

 

Boobie/Bryce - nice players but inactive/only active on st's on their last team

 

Freddie - heart and soul slow as molasses

 

Orton/EJ/Tuel/Thad - mediocre/project/practice squad fodder/3rd stringer

 

WR group - very talented also very young. Most receivers hit their stride in their 3rd year.

 

Next year just with the people currently on the roster we could see some leaps. EJ could progress after learning, Orton could improve with time in the system, Cryil/Kuandjio could improve as big leaps are made between year 1 and 2. I would imagine some pieces will be added through fa and the draft as well. I would like to see what Hackett can do with them. As I pointed out upthread there are several "good offensive minds" that are hamstrung by mediocre/subpar talent. Maybe Hackett falls in that group maybe he doesn't I just don't think he has been given the fair shot yet to see.

 

I asked earlier and will ask again. Of the grouping Orton/EJ/Thad/Tuel which of those would put in the top 22 of qbs playing. I picked the #22 because that is the current offensive rank and I think I showed pretty convincingly that qb talent correlates pretty well with offensive output.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Don't the all 22s regularly show plays left on the field by the qb? I think that they are put in advantageous situations. I think that a talent increase will help show that.

 

If you want to go off on a Lee Smith tangent or the one 3rd and 1 play that got stuffed that is fine. I just think an improved talent level will magically make the coaches look a lot better than they do now. I want Hackett back next year not for just for continuity's sake but because I have been impressed with what he has been able to squeeze out of the talent we have. I really think the talent level on the offensive side is that poor. Look at this list:

 

Chandler - cut ww pickup, left to dangle on the market and came back bc there were no other offers

 

Pears/Urbik - ww pickups cut from their original teams

 

Boobie/Bryce - nice players but inactive/only active on st's on their last team

 

Freddie - heart and soul slow as molasses

 

Orton/EJ/Tuel/Thad - mediocre/project/practice squad fodder/3rd stringer

 

WR group - very talented also very young. Most receivers hit their stride in their 3rd year.

 

Next year just with the people currently on the roster we could see some leaps. EJ could progress after learning, Orton could improve with time in the system, Cryil/Kuandjio could improve as big leaps are made between year 1 and 2. I would imagine some pieces will be added through fa and the draft as well. I would like to see what Hackett can do with them. As I pointed out upthread there are several "good offensive minds" that are hamstrung by mediocre/subpar talent. Maybe Hackett falls in that group maybe he doesn't I just don't think he has been given the fair shot yet to see.

 

I asked earlier and will ask again. Of the grouping Orton/EJ/Thad/Tuel which of those would put in the top 22 of qbs playing. I picked the #22 because that is the current offensive rank and I think I showed pretty convincingly that qb talent correlates pretty well with offensive output.

Fair enough and that is the kind of response that I was looking for.

 

Orton to me is better than the QBs of: Jets, Jags, Browns, Texans, Titans, Bucs, Cardinals (with Palmer out the year), Rams, Redskins (can't believe that but its true), and as good as Minnesota, Oakland, Philly and Chicago. That leaves him in that area. If you want to take it a step further and factor in the contract I'd rather be in our situation than SF, Cincy and Baltimore as well.

 

While I don't think that he is great there are a lot of teams in as bad or worse shape.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[section122]

Fair enough and that is the kind of response that I was looking for.

 

Orton to me is better than the QBs of: Jets, Jags, Browns, Texans, Titans, Bucs, Cardinals (with Palmer out the year), Rams, Redskins (can't believe that but its true), and as good as Minnesota, Oakland, Philly and Chicago. That leaves him in that area. If you want to take it a step further and factor in the contract I'd rather be in our situation than SF, Cincy and Baltimore as well.

 

While I don't think that he is great there are a lot of teams in as bad or worse shape.

 

So you've got him better than 9 starters and on par with 4 more putting him in the 19-23 range which I am on board with. Which is why I think we fall in the spot we do. I don't mean to go through these threads and make it sound like Nate is the best oc ever. I just don't think he is the worst and I'd like to see him get a real opportunity. I'm a big believer of this coaching staff for no other reason than this is the hardest playing Bills team I have seen in a long time. If Marrone wants Hackett I'm on board with that. I think if Hackett is let go one of the coaches on staff (Hostler perhaps) would be the guy and that just doesn't make sense to me.

[JohnC]

Fair enough and that is the kind of response that I was looking for.

 

Orton to me is better than the QBs of: Jets, Jags, Browns, Texans, Titans, Bucs, Cardinals (with Palmer out the year), Rams, Redskins (can't believe that but its true), and as good as Minnesota, Oakland, Philly and Chicago. That leaves him in that area. If you want to take it a step further and factor in the contract I'd rather be in our situation than SF, Cincy and Baltimore as well.

 

While I don't think that he is great there are a lot of teams in as bad or worse shape.

 

I don't know how you can conclude that Orton is an adequate qb after watching week after week this immobile and pedestrian qb getting worse. After watching his performances spiraling downwards I consider him to be the worst starting qb in the league. Did you watch yesterday's game? I would without hesitation prefer having Bortles, Bridgewater or Carr starting for me this season than having our current ineffectual starting qb. With a rookie qb you get inconsistent play but at least you get a qb who has an upward trajectory.

 

I am a Whaley fan. Overall he has done a good job and brought credibility to a franchise that has lacked it. But if Orton is brought back as a starter then Whaley should be summarily dismissed for malfeasance. Replacing Orton with a mediocre qb would be a dramatic upgrade. Orton is on the downside of his very indistingushed career. As bad as he has played he still has the potential to get worse. His performance is beyond being bad---it is dispiriting.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

So you've got him better than 9 starters and on par with 4 more putting him in the 19-23 range which I am on board with. Which is why I think we fall in the spot we do. I don't mean to go through these threads and make it sound like Nate is the best oc ever. I just don't think he is the worst and I'd like to see him get a real opportunity. I'm a big believer of this coaching staff for no other reason than this is the hardest playing Bills team I have seen in a long time. If Marrone wants Hackett I'm on board with that. I think if Hackett is let go one of the coaches on staff (Hostler perhaps) would be the guy and that just doesn't make sense to me.

Fair enough and for the most part I like the coaching staff. I think that this team plays really hard. They hit as hard as any team that I can remember. I'm not saying that they would be an elite offense with the talent that they have but I don't like the general plan on that side of the football.

 

One other note that seems to get overlooked is that Whaley did a nice job this offseason adding not only players that for but personalities as well. Spikes and Dixon specifically and from winning programs and have added a physical edge. Even if they are part time players they hold other players to that standard.

 

 

 

I don't know how you can conclude that Orton is an adequate qb after watching week after week this immobile and pedestrian qb getting worse. After watching his performances spiraling downwards I consider him to be the worst starting qb in the league. Did you watch yesterday's game? I would without hesitation prefer having Bortles, Bridgewater or Carr starting for me this season than having our current ineffectual starting qb. With a rookie qb you get inconsistent play but at least you get a qb who has an upward trajectory.

 

I am a Whaley fan. Overall he has done a good job and brought credibility to a franchise that has lacked it. But if Orton is brought back as a starter then Whaley should be summarily dismissed for malfeasance. Replacing Orton with a mediocre qb would be a dramatic upgrade. Orton is on the downside of his very indistingushed career. As bad as he has played he still has the potential to get worse. His performance is beyond being bad---it is dispiriting.

He has been bad lately, no doubt but the question was posed as to which teams we have better QB play than. I'd certainly rather have some of those young guys but it's tough to argue that Bortles has been better than Orton this year. I gave my list feel free to edit it in any way that you want.

[JohnC]

Fair enough and for the most part I like the coaching staff. I think that this team plays really hard. They hit as hard as any team that I can remember. I'm not saying that they would be an elite offense with the talent that they have but I don't like the general plan on that side of the football.

 

One other note that seems to get overlooked is that Whaley did a nice job this offseason adding not only players that for but personalities as well. Spikes and Dixon specifically and from winning programs and have added a physical edge. Even if they are part time players they hold other players to that standard.

 

He has been bad lately, no doubt but the question was posed as to which teams we have better QB play than. I'd certainly rather have some of those young guys but it's tough to argue that Bortles has been better than Orton this year. I gave my list feel free to edit it in any way that you want.

 

I'll take a raw rookie qb in Bortles over Orton this year and feel confident that the youngster will out play Orton with our team's roster. Everyone can agree that his performances have deteriorated. Even if you consider this as a late season slump what upside does he actually have. Is his mobility going to improve with age? Is his weak arm strength and inaccuracy going to improve next year as more time passes?

 

The shame of this season is if the Bills would have had below average qbing instead of grossly inept qbing this team would probably be in the playoffs and capable of knocking off a team or two. I know it is not going to happen this year but I would rather have the unproven EJ play in place of Orton rather than watch the stunningly bad level of play from the vagabound veteran qb. At least the prospect qb has a chance of getting better with the added experience while the current starting qb is what he is and getting worse.

[section122]

 

One other note that seems to get overlooked is that Whaley did a nice job this offseason adding not only players that for but personalities as well. Spikes and Dixon specifically and from winning programs and have added a physical edge. Even if they are part time players they hold other players to that standard.

 

 

Spikes is not getting his credit imo. His fire and borderline recklessness has been the true spark to me on that defense. He brought a serious attitude. I know he has limitations as a player but I hope he comes back next year. Bradham, Brown, Kiko, and Spikes would be fantastic depth and skill at the lb position.

[bigK14094]

I doubt he will coach on a one year contract. He becomes a lame duck. He will either be extended or he will go. I suspect he will be extended, and the Pegulas will pay him his contract if they need to fire him after next year. I don't think they will care about dead coach money as much as RW did.

I think Marrone got 4 years out of the box....and he will not be a lame duck next season, should he last that long.

[thewildrabbit]

I do. As an example from yesterday my brother was counting Lee Smith's snaps and what happened when he was out there. His 1st 30 snaps were like 28 runs and 2 passes (both to him). To take it a step further why would you have an offense where Lee Smith is playing 30+ snaps? Last week in the 4th quarter they moved the football when Hackett took the lousy TEs off the field and spread it.

 

People harp on the play calling but the whole plan is just broken. I know what they are going to do before the ball is snapped about 70% of the time and I know nothing. Imagine how predictable it is to teams that watched film all week?

and that just by seeing who is on the field, and what formation the Bills are in...

 

I'd have to say that most of the Bills fans out there just don't get the nuances of what a top NFC OC could do vs what we are currently seeing on the field. Most all of them just want to point at the QB, and always will, as blaming the QB is always the easiest solution. Hackett does indeed need to go, and the Bills need to hire an OC with as much knowledge about the offense as Schwartz has on the defense. I think the results here would be rather spectacular in terms of scoring TD's.

 

 

Anyway, I've changed my stance on Marrone after learning that he wanted Urbik out of there, and the FO told him he is a fine OG. I'm thinking he is being overruled on the players he wants, and doesn't want. So, not much he can do, but make do with what players he has on offense. Now all I can do is hope that the Pegula's hire that senior adviser. While Whaley has done a brilliant job in every other aspect of the team, I just don't get the bad O line acquisitions, and the desire to retain some sub par players.

 

Lastly, we might have to endure another year of this regime intact, along with the same players. I just don't get how these changes to the OC & line weren't thought out, and proper choices made last off season.

[BuffOrange]

The guy is getting a ton of mileage out of Dave Wandsteadt sucking.

[thewildrabbit]

To the less stubborn, and more open minded fans. Think about what Aaron Rodgers would look like with a lousy offensive coaching staff, behind a bad O line, with a WR corps that has a 2nd year player as the most experienced man.

 

Then think about how Aaron Rodgers looked like yesterday with a great coaching staff, great receiver corps, and decent line playing against a strong defensive unit when things don't go your way. Lets face some facts here, the Bills offense has played against better defenses this season. The Lions #1, Denver #4, Jets, Miami, KC, SD all have top ten defenses. Kyle Orton has never looked as bad as Rodgers did yesterday, and in fact did enough with the offense to seal the win, as 4 FG's helped get that win.

 

 

Given the QB's current surrounding cast I'm not ready to indict the QB, and throw him in the trash.

[T master]

Say what you want about Marrone, but the Bills are much better now (except at QB) than they were before he came here. That alone is enough for him to rightfully return next season and improve the offensive production. A better QB and upgraded O-Line will make this team a championship contender. For a second year head coach he's earned that much no matter what his critics think.

 

As for Hackett, let's be fair about it. Look at the QB's he's had to work with. Orton's the best of the bunch? Really?? Seriously??? Let's see what he can do with an upgrade at that position.

 

It's just to bad he doesn't know how to utilize the talent he has on hand to the best of it's ability !!

[NoSaint]

To the less stubborn, and more open minded fans. Think about what Aaron Rodgers would look like with a lousy offensive coaching staff, behind a bad O line, with a WR corps that has a 2nd year player as the most experienced man.

 

Then think about how Aaron Rodgers looked like yesterday with a great coaching staff, great receiver corps, and decent line playing against a strong defensive unit when things don't go your way. Lets face some facts here, the Bills offense has played against better defenses this season. The Lions #1, Denver #4, Jets, Miami, KC, SD all have top ten defenses. Kyle Orton has never looked as bad as Rodgers did yesterday, and in fact did enough with the offense to seal the win, as 4 FG's helped get that win.

 

 

Given the QB's current surrounding cast I'm not ready to indict the QB, and throw him in the trash.

 

are we chalking 4 fgs as the offense contributing? our offense is lucky if we get 1 td against non-jet teams this year. thats bad.

[paupmvp1995]

I don't know how you can conclude that Orton is an adequate qb after watching week after week this immobile and pedestrian qb getting worse. After watching his performances spiraling downwards I consider him to be the worst starting qb in the league. Did you watch yesterday's game? I would without hesitation prefer having Bortles, Bridgewater or Carr starting for me this season than having our current ineffectual starting qb. With a rookie qb you get inconsistent play but at least you get a qb who has an upward trajectory.

 

I am a Whaley fan. Overall he has done a good job and brought credibility to a franchise that has lacked it. But if Orton is brought back as a starter then Whaley should be summarily dismissed for malfeasance. Replacing Orton with a mediocre qb would be a dramatic upgrade. Orton is on the downside of his very indistingushed career. As bad as he has played he still has the potential to get worse. His performance is beyond being bad---it is dispiriting.

I completely agree. Besides the Jets games, and the last drive against Minnesota, Orton has been terrible. He has not completed one deep pass all season. (I don't think he has even given our receivers a chance on any of his deep throws) He has ZERO mobility, and plays w no inspiration. I hope the Bills part ways w him when the season is over. Management would have to be absolutely brain dead to not see what all us fans have seen from Orton. I believe there will be major changes at the QB position for next season. If Sanchez is available, that would be a start. An avg to above avg QB w Woods Sammy and 7/11 to throw to, and adding a big red zone threat, and this team will be so sweet on both sides of the ball.

[Malazan]

If Sanchez is available, that would be a start.

 

Have you seen him play the last couple weeks? Outside of the average game he had and got a lot of press for when he replaced Foles...he hasn't been that good...behind a good offensive line.

[thewildrabbit]

are we chalking 4 fgs as the offense contributing? our offense is lucky if we get 1 td against non-jet teams this year. thats bad.

Sometimes FG's are all you need to win, just ask Chiefs last year at RWS.

 

Hey man, I agree that the Bills offense simply isn't very good. That Kyle Orton has a lot to do with that. I've never touted him as being a top QB, but he is a decent game manager along the lines of an Alex Smith. Give him a decent line, and run game and I'd think we would be seeing a different player.

 

 

 

I look at the NFL game as a chess match between master players (OC vs DC) who can read moves ahead by watching previous game film and are prepared in advance for anything. Jim Schwartz having been the HC in Detroit was there long enough to know that Packers offense very well, and he knows Aaron Rodgers tendency's. Hence a great defensive game masterminded by a top DC that limited the supposed MVP to his worst game ever! OTOH, Now some chess players are limited in their thinking and simply can't see ahead or even whats going on during a game.

 

Let me just add WR Mike Williams after the Texans game where he had 2 rec for 84 yards, and caught a TD pass. He remarked after the game "we adjusted a little too late" He went on to say that they expected the Texans to be in a certain defensive scheme, and they came out something different all game. Williams went on to remark that entire event, that when you prepare for one thing and they are playing another. "things tend to not work". The Bills didn't shift their offensive scheme until late into the 3rd quarter is a big reason as to why EJ looked so lost in that game.

 

Bills fans stating that Nathaniel Hackett is in over his head is not an overstatement. The Bills need a surgeon with a scalpel, and instead have a simpleton with a dull chisel

[Wesdawg]

Sometimes FG's are all you need to win, just ask Chiefs last year at RWS.

 

Hey man, I agree that the Bills offense simply isn't very good. That Kyle Orton has a lot to do with that. I've never touted him as being a top QB, but he is a decent game manager along the lines of an Alex Smith. Give him a decent line, and run game and I'd think we would be seeing a different player.

 

 

 

I look at the NFL game as a chess match between master players (OC vs DC) who can read moves ahead by watching previous game film and are prepared in advance for anything. Jim Schwartz having been the HC in Detroit was there long enough to know that Packers offense very well, and he knows Aaron Rodgers tendency's. Hence a great defensive game masterminded by a top DC that limited the supposed MVP to his worst game ever! OTOH, Now some chess players are limited in their thinking and simply can't see ahead or even whats going on during a game.

 

Let me just add WR Mike Williams after the Texans game where he had 2 rec for 84 yards, and caught a TD pass. He remarked after the game "we adjusted a little too late" He went on to say that they expected the Texans to be in a certain defensive scheme, and they came out something different all game. Williams went on to remark that entire event, that when you prepare for one thing and they are playing another. "things tend to not work". The Bills didn't shift their offensive scheme until late into the 3rd quarter is a big reason as to why EJ looked so lost in that game.

 

Bills fans stating that Nathaniel Hackett is in over his head is not an overstatement. The Bills need a surgeon with a scalpel, and instead have a simpleton with a dull chisel

Well said, man. Schwartz deserves a lot of credit for making those adjustments. We need an OC who can do those same things on offense on a week-to-week, or even quarter-to-quarter basis. The best minds in the game know how to adjust on the fly.

[BUNCH OF MULARKEY]

 

The offense is Marrone's. Everyone bashes Hackett but I would put just as much (if not more) blame on Marrone. As far as physicality, that's on defense and credit would go to Schwartz and Pepper Johnson.

It would be interesting if there is a rift between Marrone and Whalley to see Marrone/Hackett gone. Schwartz HC, Pepper DC and bring in a OC. We might get the best of both worlds. Continuity on D and a competent offense.

Logical, but doesn't explain Schwartz failures as HC Detroit.

Maybe it helps Schwarts having Marrone to talk to the press, take the heat and let just him coach D.

In a bizzare way they need St. Doug to be the whooping boy. And he's gettin good at handling it.

[3rdand12]

The players sticking up for Marrone yesterday changed my opinion of him. That was the first time I've ever heard a groundswell of support from his players, which, coupled with the improved record, changes my view - I think he should get another season.

 

That said, it's a shared Marrone/Whaley issue that they had to scrap their entire plan for the offense this year because of sub-par QB and guard talent. It's totally unacceptable and if it doesn't get fixed this offseason, they should both be shown the door.

This is a fairly major statement coming from you Coach ! Getting soft ?

lol

 

I believe that both are a problem. It is much, much, much easier to find someone that can design an offense to your talent than it is to find a franchise QB. I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to see both upgraded. I would love to upgrade at QB.

In all seriousness i am not sure what the Bills do well on Offense. what strengths they actually have. I really dont know

 

but if we are going to absolutely telegraph our play call as a run - we may as well get our best blocker on the field, and i dont think thats lee smith either.

and who might that fellow be ?

[thewildrabbit]

Logical, but doesn't explain Schwartz failures as HC Detroit.

Maybe it helps Schwarts having Marrone to talk to the press, take the heat and let just him coach D.

In a bizzare way they need St. Doug to be the whooping boy. And he's gettin good at handling it.

Not every assistant coach becomes a successful NFL head coach in their first attempt. Bill Belichick come to mind as he took the Browns to the playoffs, and next year was fired. His defense was #1 that year, and slid to 24th the next.

 

In 1994 Pete Carroll was the 6-10 NY Jets HC, and then in 1997 the Patriots HC after taking over from Bill Parcells 10-6, 9-7, 8-8. He didn't become a good NFL HC until his 3rd attempt

 

Jim Caldwell took over the Colts in 2009 from Tony Dungy, and went 14-2 and to a SB. To 10-6 in 2010. To 2-14 in 2011. Now he has another chance this year with the Lions, and his team (10-6) is fielding one of the best defenses in the NFL. NFN, but IMO, it was Schwartz that built that #1 defense.

 

All I seem to recall is that every year that Lions QB Matthew Stafford was either injured or fell on his face at the end of every season. Who knows why he failed in Detroit, all I do know is that Schwartz will get another shot at HC, and soon.