Marrone in 2015

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I'd rather have an oline that can move the pile. Let's start there. Otherwise, we're just flaming the OC for inadequately covering deficiencies in talent.

Isn't that a coaches' job?!? His job is to put his team in advantageous situations. We'd all love to have an elite OL but shouldn't we also want a coach that puts his team in position to succeed?

[The Big Cat]

I never said that there's no place for running out of Giant sets or 13 personnel, etc. All I said was that smart teams use formations to their advantage.

 

Yes, the team needs to upgrade the OG spots; I never said (or implied) otherwise. However, the myth of "we can run whenever we want" still seems to run rampant around these parts. Very few teams do that with any regularity.

 

My point is quite simple: smart teams use different sets/matchups to their advantage. GB was struggling to run against Buffalo early on, so they went to a 20 set and motioned the FB out wide. Buffalo responded by going to a nickel and removing BOTH a LB and a CB from the box to compensate. GB proceeded to run the ball for 45 yards on their next 3 carries. Is that a "scheme gimmick", or is that simply taking advantage of what the defense gives you? Does GB just need to go out and get a better OL too?

 

 

 

It's extremely rare for even the best NFL OL's to "move the pile". NFL OLs create creases and momentary gaps in the defense FAR more often than they block anyone's face into the dirt.

 

Matter of fact, take a swing on over to my "finer points" thread once I update it this week--there's some quality discussion by ALL and plenty of film from around the league to look at on the subject.

 

I'd welcome another perspective.

 

Well, I'll point you toward the Dallas Cowboys. The perpetually 8-8 team that's hung with Jason Garret in spit ALL the criticism had a deplorable defense last year yet still continued to invest in their OLine. Now they have a back (albeit a good one) who's knocking on the door of 2,000 yards, and the team that was predicted to draft first overall in 2015 is now about to win its division.

 

to be fair there, look who was on our D Line too for that series. i believe we had everyone resting again, PLUS the nickel package.

 

And as BillsBackersChicago will (un)happily tell you, Spikes was the missing man on ALL those run-gouges. I had asserted prior to this week that he might be expendable and BBC put that one right back on me Sunday every time his absence was felt.

Edited December 15, 2014 by The Big Cat

[NoSaint]

And as BillsBackersChicago will (un)happily tell you, Spikes was the missing man on ALL those run-gouges. I had asserted prior to this week that he might be expendable and BBC put that one right back on me Sunday every time his absence was felt.

 

to some degree, thats exactly what these guys are arguing we should do better -- use our personnel to dictate run stuffers are sent to the sideline.

 

to the spikes question - i think it was both missing spikes based on the offensive package, but also darues, kyle, and possibly one of the DEs on rotation too that helped make it so catastrophic

Edited December 15, 2014 by NoSaint

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

to some degree, thats exactly what these guys are arguing we should do better -- use our personnel to dictate run stuffers are sent to the sideline.

 

Exactly

[thebandit27]

Well, I'll point you toward the Dallas Cowboys. The perpetually 8-8 team that's hung with Jason Garret in spit ALL the criticism had a deplorable defense last year yet still continued to invest in their OLine. Now they have a back (albeit a good one) who's knocking on the door of 2,000 yards, and the team that was predicted to draft first overall in 2015 is now about to win its division.

 

I'm well aware of Dallas' OL. I've looked at their All-22 a few times this season...and you know what? They don't blow people off of the ball the way you're insinuating. They do just as I said: they create temporary creases for the RB. Yes, they're good at it, and Murry is good at hitting them. The running game is just as much about timing as it is about manning blocks. Here's an example for you:

 

http://cover32.com/cowboys/2014/10/02/film-room-breaking-down-zack-martins-game-against-the-saints/

 

Not huge, crushing blocks that move the LOS; just creating small creases for the RB.

[Lurker]

Outside of hiring two good DCs what impact has he had on this team?

How about instilling a resilient "we believe" attitude that is JOB ONE for any head coach. And getting his players to play for each other, through thick and thin, and buy into the shared goals and objectives. These are skills that are very hard to define and find--and the reason so many NFL HC's flame out, IMO.

 

I'm not putting Marrone anywhere near the same category, but how many people actually thought Parcells called offensive plays or designed schemes for the Giants? Or Mike Tomlin for the Steelers?

 

It's remarkable (to me anyhow) how many TSW-ers focus on play calling (when in fact for any given snap the QB has several options that are out of the hands of the OC or HC, as do the WRs in terms of their sight reads) and don't see the cultural 'big picture' of what coaches really do--set the tone, put players in position to use their skills, and then trust (hope) that those players execute.

 

Marrone's far from perfect. But he's the first Bills coach in a long time that has the players 'buying in' and fighting, not folding when it would be easy to do so.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

How about instilling a resilient "we believe" attitude that is JOB ONE for any head coach. And getting his players to play for each other, through thick and thin, and buy into the shared goals and objectives. These are skills that are very hard to define and find--and the reason so many NFL HC's flame out, IMO.

 

I'm not putting Marrone anywhere near the same category, but how many people actually thought Parcells called offensive plays or designed schemes for the Giants? Or Mike Tomlin for the Steelers?

 

It's remarkable (to me anyhow) how many TSW-ers focus on play calling (when in fact for any given snap the QB has several options that are out of the hands of the OC or HC, as do the WRs in terms of their sight reads) and don't see the cultural 'big picture' of what coaches really do--set the tone, put players in position to use their skills, and then trust (hope) that those players execute.

 

Marrone's far from perfect. But he's the first Bills coach in a long time that has the players 'buying in' and fighting, not folding when it would be easy to do so.

This is a great post and the exact reason that Marrone has earned his job. The head coach isn't usually the "x & o" guy. He is the leader and the identity of his team. Marrone has flourished in that role. His team has a tough, physical mentality which is exactly what he wanted. He has them playing as a team and for one another. Marrone is definitely better than a lot of us here give him credit for (myself included).

[The Big Cat]

I'm well aware of Dallas' OL. I've looked at their All-22 a few times this season...and you know what? They don't blow people off of the ball the way you're insinuating. They do just as I said: they create temporary creases for the RB. Yes, they're good at it, and Murry is good at hitting them. The running game is just as much about timing as it is about manning blocks. Here's an example for you:

 

http://cover32.com/c...nst-the-saints/

 

Not huge, crushing blocks that move the LOS; just creating small creases for the RB.

 

And that has been my MAIN criticism of Spiller since day one. His timing, vision and patience SUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.

 

to some degree, thats exactly what these guys are arguing we should do better -- use our personnel to dictate run stuffers are sent to the sideline.

 

to the spikes question - i think it was both missing spikes based on the offensive package, but also darues, kyle, and possibly one of the DEs on rotation too that helped make it so catastrophic

 

I won't profess to know the rotation philosophy of our defense. I've been puzzled by it all season, but far be it from any of us to criticize that side of the ball.

 

I would however like to add that I saw something curious picked up by the TV cameras yesterday which was Mario giving the "hey you need a breather" signal to somebody already in the game who evidently gave him the "nah, i'm good" response because he gave back the "cool, i'll getcha shortly then"

[thebandit27]

And that has been my MAIN criticism of Spiller since day one. His timing, vision and patience SUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.

 

 

Indeed...it's the reason that Freddie, despite not having the same explosion, top-end speed, or shiftiness of CJ, can get yards with the same blocking.

[Best Player Available]

Marrone is doing a good job instilling a physical mentality. He deserves to stay.

 

Hackett is getting worse and MUST go. The design of the offense is atrocious.

What that offense is actually "designed"?

[The Big Cat]

Indeed...it's the reason that Freddie, despite not having the same explosion, top-end speed, or shiftiness of CJ, can get yards with the same blocking.

 

I made the point on our podcast last week (subscribe on iTunes if you don't already) that Fred has elite (as in best in the NFL) vision, balance and timing. And only because of those factors can he still produce now that his athleticism is taking a not-so gradual nose dive.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

I made the point on our podcast last week (subscribe on iTunes if you don't already) that Fred has elite (as in best in the NFL) vision, balance and timing. And only because of those factors can he still produce now that his athleticism is taking a not-so gradual nose dive.

Yep, in addition he may be the best blocker on the team. Fred is so smart and just a really good football player despite his physical skills declining. We are lucky to have him. Edited December 15, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[NoSaint]

 

 

I made the point on our podcast last week (subscribe on iTunes if you don't already) that Fred has elite (as in best in the NFL) vision, balance and timing. And only because of those factors can he still produce now that his athleticism is taking a not-so gradual nose dive.

 

i think its a very fair point.

 

his athleticism has fallen off, and i dont think the rest of the offense does him favors. its incredibly impressive he produces like he does and almost certainly owed to those 3 hard to measure traits.

 

if bandit, KTD and firechan all chime in agreeing, the board might just close down for the rest of the season.

Edited December 15, 2014 by NoSaint

[The Big Cat]

Yep, in addition he may be the best blocker on the team. Fred is so smart and just a really good football player despite his physical skills declining. We are lucky to have him.

i think its a very fair point.

 

his athleticism has fallen off, and i dont think the rest of the offense does him favors. its incredibly impressive he produces like he does and almost certainly owed to those 3 hard to measure traits.

 

if bandit, KTD and firechan all chime in agreeing, the board might just close down for the rest of the season.

 

An early Christmas Miracle!!! Shoot! I was hoping it'd be a playoff berth!

 

Also, Fred's performance yesterday, given all the aforementioned, was just outstanding. The way he fought for yards...I mean...jesus.

[FireChan]

i think its a very fair point.

 

his athleticism has fallen off, and i dont think the rest of the offense does him favors. its incredibly impressive he produces like he does and almost certainly owed to those 3 hard to measure traits.

 

if bandit, KTD and firechan all chime in agreeing, the board might just close down for the rest of the season.

 

The classic Fred play was when he got his legs wrapped up, he wriggled to avoid an incoming hit and squeezed forward for 3 more yards. Just incredible stuff.

[Fan in Chicago]

I'd rather have an oline that can move the pile. Let's start there. Otherwise, we're just flaming the OC for inadequately covering deficiencies in talent.

 

I think Whaley, and Nix before him, have stuck to this philosophy of going big on the lines. What strikes me as interesting is the non-development and regression of the OL in general. This season began with additions to the OL via acquisition and draft. I was feeling very good about the talent, albeit not all war tested. But then, steadily things have gone downhill. I find it tough to believe that a guy (Whaley) who has excelled in gathering talent on the entire D and the O skill positions suddenly loses his bearings when it comes to the OL. I also don't buy this Marrone is stubborn and hence not playing Kouandijo. I am hence leaning towards problems with the OL coach or the offensive schemes. I would like to see upgrades at these coaching positions.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Fan in Chicago

[The Big Cat]

I think Whaley, and Nix before him, have stuck to this philosophy of going big on the lines. What strikes me as interesting is the non-development and regression of the OL in general. This season began with additions to the OL via acquisition and draft. I was feeling very good about the talent, albeit not all war tested. But then, steadily things have gone downhill. I find it tough to believe that a guy (Whaley) who has excelled in gathering talent on the entire D and the O skill positions suddenly loses his bearings when it comes to the OL. I also don't buy this Marrone is stubborn and hence not playing Kouandijo. I am hence leaning towards problems with the OL coach or the offensive schemes. I would like to see upgrades at these coaching positions.

 

I will take continuity and new talent over coaching changes...any day.

[boyst]

Getting a top 10-12 QB it is then! I don't see why we haven't done that yet, because apparently it is common sense! Why isn't every team doing this! Imagine Cleveland with a top 12 QB and all that talent, doesn't Pettine know he needs to trade the farm for someone like Cutler or Mallet?! Look at Houston, all that D and they just suck the D on offense! Shouldn't they trade for someone like Mallet or Foles?!

 

I mean, really, it's quite simple. Trade or get a great QB by any means possible! Jay Cutler or Mark Sanchez! YES! They've shown a great ability to win games, it's so plain in daylight that we have missed it!

 

/sarcasm

 

How do we upgrade the QB position in reality? We've made several attempts. We've had Kolb, Leinert, Young, Brohm, Thad Lewis, T Jackson, Kyle Orton, Jesse Palmer, EJ Manuel... who else? If we keep wasting time turning over every stone to find the QB we'll end up wasting away the rest of out talent and resources. Until we have a chance at a legit QB why waste time keep churning bodies over and under?

[NoSaint]

How do we upgrade the QB position in reality? We've made several attempts. We've had Kolb, Leinert, Young, Brohm, Thad Lewis, T Jackson, Kyle Orton, Jesse Palmer, EJ Manuel... who else? If we keep wasting time turning over every stone to find the QB we'll end up wasting away the rest of out talent and resources. Until we have a chance at a legit QB why waste time keep churning bodies over and under?

 

and that might beg the question, is it easier to upgrade our OC? (i think options that are bigger upgrades than we likely see at QB will be available)

and will that upgrade atleast help put a bandaid on the QB problem? (i think it would be hard to argue that hackett is getting 100% out of orton, even if you accept ortons not very good)

 

i wouldnt advocate blindly firing hackett on the flight home from the final game and not having a guy in line, but i do think that the team would be well served to have whaley discretely investigating what options would be available and willing to accept the job

Edited December 15, 2014 by NoSaint

[The Big Cat]

and that might beg the question, is it easier to upgrade our OC? (i think options that are bigger upgrades than we likely see at QB will be available)

and will that upgrade atleast help put a bandaid on the QB problem? (i think it would be hard to argue that hackett is getting 100% out of orton, even if you accept ortons not very good)

 

i wouldnt advocate blindly firing hackett on the flight home from the final game and not having a guy in line, but i do think that the team would be well served to have whaley discretely investigating what options would be available and willing to accept the job

 

I think the benefits of continuity outweigh the so-called simplicity of finding a new OC--which I also don't believe is as easy as you're suggesting.