Conflict Between Bills' Front Office and Marrone?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Marrone knows EJ doesn't have it and wont any time soon, if ever.

 

If he really thought EJ had something to offer then he would have no problem putting EJ in if we were eliminated from the playoffs.

[papazoid]

this whole "conflict" discussion centers around marrone saying the following:

 

Bills' Marrone to stick with Orton "unless it changes for somebody else".

 

the somebody else is Whaley.

 

 

to me this says Marrone is playing the QB who gives us the best chance to win. which in his opinion is Orton.

 

 

the sticky part comes if and when the Bills are officially eliminated from the playoffs.

 

 

it sure sounds like Marrone would prefer to continue playing Orton for the rest of the season even if eliminated, but he either already knows or thinks Whaley would like to see EJ get back in there once we are eliminated from the playoffs.

 

Marrone's priority is to keep winning NOW.

 

Whaley's priority changes to preparing for next season after elimination from this years playoffs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

for me, EJ is a "development QB" and will be on next years roster no matter what he does in the last game or two of this year. it's in EJ's best interest to NOT play anymore this year.

 

the bigger question is whether Orton is going to be around next year with a CAP figure of $7 mil.

 

HELL NO am I paying him $7 mil to be a backup.

 

IMO he sucks as a starter.

 

he redoes his deal to about half that $7 mil or he is gone.

[Bill from NYC]

Fwiw, Doug had virtually zero input on the hire of Marrone and his cronies and as a result currently has no emotional attachment to them whatsoever.

 

 

 

I would also add that a coach with an enormous ego unaccompanied by an enormous brain will never field a team that plays to its talent level.

 

Both comments are 100% on the money my friend. Marrone was a Brandon crony from Syracuse. I said this from day 1. As far as big egos, right again. Nick Saban has earned the right to be pompous, no?

 

Let me add one thing.....Brandon, Whaley and Marrone did little this season besides try to hang onto their jobs. I think that Watkins will be great, but he was drafted while the team was in the hands of a qb that is just so bad that the players and fans were crying out for Orton. Whaley gave up a #1 in 2015 in this situation and is therefore not to be excused either imo.

[Fadingpain]

It doesn't really matter who coaches the Bills...they are going to lose most of the time. In-demand coaches who are seeking an NFL job know this, and will avoid coaching the Bills, Jags, Browns, etc. like the plague. I think the Bills would be no worse off giving Marrone another year.

 

Your comments used to be valid and would continue to be valid had we not undergone the recent change in ownership.

 

As it is, we have a new owner and this makes all the difference. It hasn't happened yet, but the Pegulas will transform our franchise from one of the most poorly run in the league to one of the best.

 

And then you watch talent line up to come here. Winning attracts winners. Losing attracts losers.

 

The transition will be slow but steady.

 

A great place to start is by totally cleaning house this off-season. The crew over there now is still a byproduct of the "old" franchise...that stuff needs to go.

[Rico]

Both comments are 100% on the money my friend. Marrone was a Brandon crony from Syracuse. I said this from day 1. As far as big egos, right again. Nick Saban has earned the right to be pompous, no?

 

Let me add one thing.....Brandon, Whaley and Marrone did little this season besides try to hang onto their jobs. I think that Watkins will be great, but he was drafted while the team was in the hands of a qb that is just so bad that the players and fans were crying out for Orton. Whaley gave up a #1 in 2015 in this situation and is therefore not to be excused either imo.

You were correct then, & you are correct now. Regardless of how the hiring process was reported, the bottom line is Russ got his man.

 

 

Your comments used to be valid and would continue to be valid had we not undergone the recent change in ownership.

 

As it is, we have a new owner and this makes all the difference. It hasn't happened yet, but the Pegulas will transform our franchise from one of the most poorly run in the league to one of the best.

 

And then you watch talent line up to come here. Winning attracts winners. Losing attracts losers.

 

The transition will be slow but steady.

 

A great place to start is by totally cleaning house this off-season. The crew over there now is still a byproduct of the "old" franchise...that stuff needs to go.

Also correct. And they should start with Brandon, even if he's "no longer involved in the football side of things". Best to completely eliminate the possibility of him exerting any kind of influence in that area. Hopefully he'll just leave soon of his own accord.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Here we go again ...

 

Kyle gift wrapped a TD to the Lions by putting a pass right in the DBs gut at our end of the field (7). Carpenter missed 1 FG (3).

 

Lions FG kicker missed 3 FGs (9).

 

We gave them 10, they gave us 9.

 

10-9 = 1 and we won 3.

 

 

I kind of get what your saying but how many games come with 3 missed field goals by a guy? Maybe 2-3 a season? How many pick 6s are there in a year? 40-50?

 

When pointing at a rare, fluke occurrence they just don't match up. You could've started rolling in those times the defenders didn't get a tackle in time or cover well enough and just give the final score.

[JohnC]

Doug deserves no such thing. As a Bills fan, I'm infuriated at Marrone for not throwing the ball downfield in games when they KNOW they have to score a few touchdowns.

 

He does not have the balls to be a head coach in the NFL because he is literally more afraid of interceptions than giving his team a legitimate chance to beat the good teams.

 

There is no fixing a timid coach. The Bills did him a huge favor picking him as their head coach since he came from an average win team at a near invisible collegiate football program.

 

There certainly is a way to making a timid coach more courageous: Get him a qb who can make plays and expand the playbook. As others have said there were many plays in which our wideouts were open but the qb simply couldn't/wouldn't get the ball down the field. Our offense is limited because the OL and qb are obviously limited. That is not the coaches fault. You work within the players abilities and limitations. What more do you expect?

[chris heff]

 

 

There certainly is a way to making a timid coach more courageous: Get him a qb who can make plays and expand the playbook. As others have said there were many plays in which our wideouts were open but the qb simply couldn't/wouldn't get the ball down the field. Our offense is limited because the OL and qb are obviously limited. That is not the coaches fault. You work within the players abilities and limitations. What more do you expect?

The OL, specifically the guards are a problem, but Manuel and Orton have had exactly the same issues. The most glaring is the red zone production. How is that not on coaching?

[papazoid]

what OC can be successful when ALL 3 qb's suck and 4 of your front 7 can't block (both guards and TE's)

[JohnC]

Both comments are 100% on the money my friend. Marrone was a Brandon crony from Syracuse. I said this from day 1. As far as big egos, right again. Nick Saban has earned the right to be pompous, no?

 

Let me add one thing.....Brandon, Whaley and Marrone did little this season besides try to hang onto their jobs. I think that Watkins will be great, but he was drafted while the team was in the hands of a qb that is just so bad that the players and fans were crying out for Orton. Whaley gave up a #1 in 2015 in this situation and is therefore not to be excused either imo.

 

Gotham Bill, As much criticism that Marrone has attracted the bottom line is that he has an 8-8 type team playing at an 8-8 level. Is DM an elite HC? Of course not. No one is suggesting otherwise. But considering what he is working with at qb, the embodiment of mediocrtiy, the HC is not performing as an abject failrue as others suggest. Clearly DM can't be categorized as an elite HC but that certainly doesn't make him a hack.

 

I give Marrone a lot of credit for resolutely making the qb change rather early in the season (regardless what the front office felt). That qb change salvaged the season. He replaced an overwhelmed prospect qb with an acknowledged average backup qb who was demonstrably better than the qb he replaced. The dismal level of talent at the most important position in the game is what Marrone and his staff are working with.

 

The discussion about Marrone's arrogance and prickly personality are distracting side issues. The bottom line in rating a HC is he getting the most out of his talent and are the players playing hard and held accountable. I say yes.

 

I agree with you and others in believing our qb situation is dire. That is not the HC's fault. For me the majority of the fault can be attributed to the buffoonish Nix who had a number of opportunities to address that critical issue. He waited too long and then panicked with the EJ pick while he was preparing to go out the door.

 

While you are very crtical of Whaley I am more cautious about how much he was accountable for the makeup of the team during Nix's tenure. So I am going to give him more leeway than you are. In general I think he is going a good job.

 

I'm sure you and others are tiring of me repeating myself but I strongly believe that what this historically troubled franchise doesn't need is another churning of the coaching staff. Doing so might for the short term satisfy the clamoring fans but it will not stabilize a franchise noted for its instability.

[1billsfan]

There certainly is a way to making a timid coach more courageous: Get him a qb who can make plays and expand the playbook. As others have said there were many plays in which our wideouts were open but the qb simply couldn't/wouldn't get the ball down the field. Our offense is limited because the OL and qb are obviously limited. That is not the coaches fault. You work within the players abilities and limitations. What more do you expect?

 

There are no excuses for Marrone at this point. If the QB is refusing to throw the ball downfield you yell at him and if he still doesn't do it you bench him for whoever is his back up. If the line can't protect then you max protract and keep Jackson and a tight end in for blocking.

 

I get that we don't have good QBs, but that should not prevent you from actually trying to win a game that you know you have to score touchdowns. The Bills had no shot to win against the Pats and Broncos with the short pass/run the ball game plan because Brady and Manning are going to score 24 plus points on the best of defenses. Marrone played to keep it close which is a loser game plan against those QBs 99% of the time. He cares more about style points and interceptions than winning against the very best teams. He NEVER EVEN TRIED to win those games. He is a loser. I would have no problem with Marrone if he had at least tried to throw the ball downfield on at least 10 plays. Who cares if theres a few interceptions, at least you tried to win the game! With his game plans they were doomed from the start. He is a coward when it comes to being a head coach. That's what you want? The guy was given Sammy Watkins and the Bills burned two 1st round picks on him and he NEVER TRIED getting him the ball against our biggest rival for the division, the New England Patriots. That was insane. It was as if he saw Derrell Revis and said, "Wow, you're so smart Mr. Belichick, you got Revis and now I have to throw the ball to any receiver not named Sammy Watkins...gee wiz Mr. Belichick, I hope I can be as smart of a coach as you some day."

 

Marrone's a loser and there's no changing it. He made his bed. It's time the Bills hired a coach with the balls to actually not care about turnovers and try to win the games against the good teams with great QBs.

Edited December 13, 2014 by 1billsfan

[Sisyphean Bills]

for me, EJ is a "development QB" and will be on next years roster no matter what he does in the last game or two of this year. it's in EJ's best interest to NOT play anymore this year.

 

One might look at the Geno Smith example for another two-season struggling QB who was benched and then brought back. Before he got benched he was averaging about 36 passing plays per complete game. After being brought back, he's involved in half that: 18 passing plays per game. [*] It's very clear that his role in the offense has been reduced. Who is gaining confidence in Geno Smith or seeing if his little light bulb went on? Would this approach be applied to EJM and if so how would it help him or showcase his talent for the future?

 

[*] The exactness of these numbers is not the central point being made.

[Fan in Chicago]

The OL, specifically the guards are a problem, but Manuel and Orton have had exactly the same issues. The most glaring is the red zone production. How is that not on coaching?

 

Surely the OC has to take some blame for this offense. But he has a rather limited set of plays to go from. For example, I cant for the life of me picture Orton throwing a fade to his WR in the EZ, do you ?

 

If Marrone had hired an experienced OC last year, we would be singing a slightly different tune, IMO.

[JohnC]

The OL, specifically the guards are a problem, but Manuel and Orton have had exactly the same issues. The most glaring is the red zone production. How is that not on coaching?

 

If you have an OL and qbs that can't execute plays in the tough red zone areas then how is it the coaches fault? The talent level is simply not adequate enough to get the job done. Being successful in the red zone is not about brilliant play calling or outsmarting the opposition. It's more about going head to head against the opponent. We are typically overmatched in the matchups.

[Sisyphean Bills]

If you have an OL and qbs that can't execute plays in the tough red zone areas then how is it the coaches fault? The talent level is simply not adequate enough to get the job done. Being successful in the red zone is not about brilliant play calling or outsmarting the opposition. It's more about going head to head against the opponent. We are typically overmatched in the matchups.

 

I agree with the idea that the line has regressed. They played better under Chan Gailey than they do now.

[JohnC]

Not only that but the extension of Ryan Fitzpatrick after 6 games in the 2011 season.

 

Nix was a laugh out loud joke of a GM. The guy still comes around to practice too, whyy? He did absolutely nothing.

 

Nix sent this franchise back many years. This organization is still feeling the repercussions of his lack of understanding on how to build a team. He stated when he first took over that before he addressed the qb issue he was going to increase the talent base and then address the qb issue. That is simply one of the dumbest approaches to take in building a roster. The right approach is when the opportunity is there to get a good qb prospect in the draft on the market you seize that opportunity because the future chances may be very limited. Nothing accelerates the building of a roster than securing a good qb.

 

When an owner hires utter incompetents there should be no surprises when the incompetents perform down to the level of their abilities. It's maddening!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Where is the conflict?

 

The Bills are in playoff race. If they win Sunday they're in great shape to potentially be 9-6 going into season finale.

 

If they are 7-8 and out if it, it would make sense to evaluate EJ further from a FO perspective and he knows that. Yet as the coach, he would like to still give the team the best chance to win and at this point in time he believes Orton is that guy.

 

I don't see the issue with what he said.

 

Hmmm, I think successful coaches or even coaches who are perceived as steering the ship in the right direction don't get second-guessed by the front office

[JohnC]

I agree with the idea that the line has regressed. They played better under Chan Gailey than they do now.

 

Chan Gailey was a very good OC and a medocre HC. He was very good at designing plays even when the qbing was uneven.

 

It's obvious that this regime preferred an OL makeup that was big and heavy. The inherent weakness that can't be overcome is that at especially at the guard positions the players have slow feet. They can't adequately react to the quicker defensive players. When you watch the line you see a lot of whiffs. That is a physical problem that can't be overcome with coaching. It is simply physcial limitations on display. It is ugly to watch.

 

Our second round draft pick, Kujo, was an OT who could physically dominate the defensive lineman he was going against in college. In the pros he is an ajbect failure for the primary reason that he has slow and sluggish feet. A debilitatng attribute that probably can't be overcome. When you repeat a mistake you contnue on making the same mistakes. Ridiculous!

[Sisyphean Bills]

Chan Gailey was a very good OC and a medocre HC. He was very good at designing plays even when the qbing was uneven.

 

It's obvious that this regime preferred an OL makeup that was big and heavy. The inherent weakness that can't be overcome is that at especially at the guard positions the players have slow feet. They can't adequately react to the quicker defensive players. When you watch the line you see a lot of whiffs. That is a physical problem that can't be overcome with coaching. It is simply physcial limitations on display. It is ugly to watch.

 

Our second round draft pick, Kujo, was an OT who could physically dominate the defensive lineman he was going against in college. In the pros he is an ajbect failure for the primary reason that he has slow and sluggish feet. A debilitatng attribute that probably can't be overcome. When you repeat a mistake you contnue on making the same mistakes. Ridiculous!

 

A bullet for the anti-Whaley guns.

[JohnC]

A bullet for the anti-Whaley guns.

 

I futilely tried to find the WGR segment when HOF Joe DeLamielleure was on the show. He was talking about his approach to scouting offensive linemen prospects. He said the first thing he watches is their feet. He didn't care how strong the player was. He felt that if the player didn't have quick feet he wouldn't draft that player. For him that was a disqualifier. He also said that he watched to see how the player uses leverage when blocking and adjusting to the players in front of him. He favored players that wrestled because they knew how to employ leverage and quickly react to the person they were going against. .

 

Joe talked about how he trained in the offseason. He was an NFL perennial racketball champion. He felt that playing racquetball and having to quickly react was an excellent way to prepare for playing on the line. His general thought was that athleticism was more critical than massive size.

 

Howard Simon specifically asked him about Kujo. He felt that he was simply too slow footed to play. His recommendation to salvage him was to get him to focus on developing quicker feet by playing racquetball and doing activities that will help improve his lack of athleticism.

 

It was a fascinating discussion about his perspective on scouting linemen compared to the Bills' approach of focusing on bigger is better. A tenet that Nix strongly held to when drafting players at all positions, including qb.