enlightener Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) "Gives up on game day passes"?! uh No. UH yes!, did you miss half the games webster? Its funny how people already blame the qb. The balls that hit watkins hands and fell to the ground were his fault, not the qb's He has given up/one handed/ not gone up for several balls this season. He should have at least 10 more catches and we could have one more win (houston) if he makes them. Yes he was a stud in a few games, he was great last game minus the fumble. (he actually fought for a couple catches) He is a true 1, but he is a primadonna so far and his showboating in new york was proof. He is probably protecting his ribs so he wasnt fighting for extra yards either, he went down before contact on several plays. All this being said he has good talent, so so effort/heart. since effort and heart can change i give him a 7/10 with the room to grow into an 8 or 9. He will never be a 10 imo. Edited December 10, 2014 by enlightener
GG Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Can I get a direct quote from Whaley or Brandon? Talk to Kelly the fair and unbalanced Dog. I tend to believe him. You may choose not to, but that's your issue. All that proves is that with drafting Ebron it would have been a not so great choice. That's a fair topic for a separate thread.
Maury Ballstein Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 UH yes!, did you miss half the games webster? Its funny how people already blame the qb. The balls that hit watkins hands and fell to the ground were his fault, not the qb's He has given up/one handed/ not gone up for several balls this season. He should have at least 10 more catches and we could have one more win (houston) if he makes them. Yes he was a stud in a few games, he was great last game minus the fumble. (he actually fought for a couple catches) He is a true 1, but he is a primadonna so far and his showboating in new york was proof. He is probably protecting his ribs so he wasnt fighting for extra yards either, he went down before contact on several plays. All this being said he has good talent, so so effort/heart. since effort and heart can change i give him a 7/10 with the room to grow into an 8 or 9. He will never be a 10 imo. I can't wait until he's an enlightened 8 ! Playoffs
Jauronimo Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 UH yes!, did you miss half the games webster? Its funny how people already blame the qb. The balls that hit watkins hands and fell to the ground were his fault, not the qb's He has given up/one handed/ not gone up for several balls this season. He should have at least 10 more catches and we could have one more win (houston) if he makes them. Yes he was a stud in a few games, he was great last game minus the fumble. (he actually fought for a couple catches) He is a true 1, but he is a primadonna so far and his showboating in new york was proof. He is probably protecting his ribs so he wasnt fighting for extra yards either, he went down before contact on several plays. All this being said he has good talent, so so effort/heart. since effort and heart can change i give him a 7/10 with the room to grow into an 8 or 9. He will never be a 10 imo. Proof that you have no business using that word. A player with so so heart and effort doesn't play with broken ribs and doesn't keep going over the middle, taking more hits.
Buffaloed in Pa Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Does not fight for the ball enough. Too many drops this year. But hey he`s a rookie. Will be a top receiver in the near future. Now get us a bigger speed receiver to go with him and Woodsy.
thewildrabbit Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I would look at play calling. TB usually plays from behind and therefore passes a lot more than us CBF Lets look, shall we. Buffalo 480 attempts. TB 454 attempts. Carolina 458 attempts. NY Giants 488 attempts. Coaching, yea could be. You don't see those teams coaches using their star rookie WR's as decoys.
TheFunPolice Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I think a major issue on this offense is coaching.... I also think it is alarming to hear that had they not traded up Ebron was the guy. That, along with the EJ pick, the Kujo pick, not having a real plan at backup QB other than Tuel until Labor Day, and the hiring of and apparent tension with Doug Marrone have me questioning Whaley's competence as GM. He has made some good moves too, and some good picks. I'm 50/50 on him, and 40/60 on Marrone right now (60 being get rid of him).
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) I keep reading this on how Sammy is being held back by his QB. Then what about the scrubs throwing to Beckham, Evans, Benjamin. Both Eli Manning, and Cam Newton are having very bad seasons Josh McCown is the 28 ranked QB, and yet Mike Evans is the leading yardage receiver, and ranked 15th of all receivers. Buffalo has 301 receptions and is ranked 17th in passing yards. Tampa Bay has 262 receptions and is ranked 19th in passing yards. (They are actually tied for 16th in passing TDs). The big difference -- only three guys on Tampa have been targeted more than 50 times--Evans (101), Vincent Jackson (124) and Louis Murphy (55). Buffalo has 4 guys with at least 61 targets and 1 with 47. The Bucs have two guys with 40+ catches, and the Bills have 4 (and one with 37). Basically, the Bills distribute ball to more players. Also, the Bills' team passer rating is 86.6. The Bucs' rating is 78.0. Edited December 10, 2014 by dave mcbride
BillnutinHouston Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) I give him an 8 so far for playmaking flashes and for toiling away with significant injuries without a peep of complaint or excuse. Still a very small sample size as a pro however so every drop or fumble is magnified in importance. If i had to project where he'll be in a year or two, I'd push to a 9. Edited December 10, 2014 by BillnutinHouston
K-9 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Does not fight for the ball enough. Too many drops this year. But hey he`s a rookie. Will be a top receiver in the near future. Now get us a bigger speed receiver to go with him and Woodsy. Another "too many drops this year" post. Without looking it up, how many has he had and how does that compare to the best receivers in the game? GO BILLS!!!
dave mcbride Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) Another "too many drops this year" post. Without looking it up, how many has he had and how does that compare to the best receivers in the game? GO BILLS!!! Ask and ye shall receive. He ranks 41st in total drops, and has a low drop rate of just 3.6 percent. http://www.sportingc...ats/drops/2014/ . Indeed, he appears to have one of the lowest drop rates in the entire NFL among WRs who have been targeted a significant number of times. Edited December 10, 2014 by dave mcbride
Kelly the Dog Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 You failed too mention Zack Martin and Odell Beckham. So it's not just Ebron or Watkins trade like the apologists like to portray. Keep in context none of this is coming from Whaley or Brandon either. So it's all speculation. So with the speculation.... Zack martin would have been the wisest choice. . So the next time you should say Ebron, Odell Beckham, or Martin vs Watkins, mid 1st and a 4th Whaley said it to me. Chris Brown said on Bills.com
K-9 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Ask and ye shall receive. He ranks 41st in total drops, and has a low drop rate of just 3.6 percent. http://www.sportingc...ats/drops/2014/ . Indeed, he appears to have one of the lowest drop rates in the entire NFL among WRs who have been targeted a significant number of times. Thanks, dave. I actually referenced these stats in a post lost now up thread. There are far more prominent WRs and a couple from the rookie class as well (Benjamin, Evans), that have higher percentages AND play with better QBs. Perhaps the most telling stat was the one you posted previously that pointed out the ball distribution among our receivers vs. other teams. That actually speaks to an offensive philosophy that seeks to spread the ball around, get the defense moving, and forcing adjustments. I've mentioned numerous times that Hackett's schemes usually have more than one receiver running open. It's a crying shame we don't have the consistent QB play to better take advantage. When this year is being analyzed by the "experts" I think you'll hear them citing poor QB play more than any other factor for our struggling offense. The tape just doesn't lie. GO BILLS!!! Whaley said it to me. Chris Brown said on Bills.com LINK!
YoloinOhio Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Elite athlete. Elite skill set and instinct at the position that can't be taught. Game Changer - which sometimes shows up on the stat sheet, and sometimes doesn't. See: Mario Williams
thewildrabbit Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Ask and ye shall receive. He ranks 41st in total drops, and has a low drop rate of just 3.6 percent. http://www.sportingc...ats/drops/2014/ . Indeed, he appears to have one of the lowest drop rates in the entire NFL among WRs who have been targeted a significant number of times. Crazy, Emmanuel Sanders 86 receptions 0 drops. Even Fred Jackson 53 receptions 0 drops
K-9 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Elite athlete. Elite skill set and instinct at the position that can't be taught. Game Changer - which sometimes shows up on the stat sheet, and sometimes doesn't. See: Mario Williams Great point, yolo. Case in point: 4th and 3 vs. the Browns when Woods made the great catch, Sammy drew TRIPLE coverage, yes TRIPLE coverage. You think that didn't create the Woods opportunity? GO BILLS!!!
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Reading IS fundamental. I'm still waiting on your rationale for why you have Watkins so highly rated. All I've said is that he's a top 20 WR in the NFL today, right this very moment, despite your claim he might one day get there. Actually, you said you believed he'd never be a top 10 WR at any point in his career. Which is absurd on many levels, but to test it I offered up the idea that if there was a redraft in the NFL tomorrow at just the WR position, Sammy would be taken in the top 20. I gave you the list of 7 I'd draft ahead of Watkins today, based on pure talent and production -- future and present: Johnson, Jones, Bryant, Green, Brown, Nelson, Thomas I also said there are probably a few I'm forgetting (like Gordon for example). But even if there are five or six guys I'm overlooking, there's still no way I can reach twenty names before I don't write down Sammy. And I don't think you could either if you did this objectively. Try it, I've asked you to do so now twice. If you are so convinced you're right, let's see your list. I'm genuinely curious. I promise you there isn't a single GM in the league today that wouldn't have Sammy in their top 20 -- if not top 15 -- based on his skill set. That's not something you often say about a rookie, but in Sammy's case it's true. That isn't to disparage this class of WRs either. I know the folks who are anti-Whaley want to hate on the trade (and it's their right to have that opinion) because this class is so deep. They're right in that sense (though wrong in the big picture because Ebron was the pick). This WR class is loaded with talent, there might be one or two names besides Sammy on the top 20 list even. I like Evans. I love ODB. I really like Benjamin... sorta. But I'd still take Sammy over any one of them without hesitation if given the choice. My eyes tell me he's in that 20-25 range right now (with some room to grow) and, low and behold, that's where his production is. Your eyes deceive you, or you haven't seen him play in person. Because if you have seen him play in person you wouldn't be saying such things. You're making a prediction about the future performance of the guy by holding up 13 games worth of stats... without contextualizing them at all. That's a clown argument, brother. Sammy played the first half of the season with a fractured rib and the second half with a bum wheel. He's played the whole season with two sub-par QBs throwing him the ball while facing the opposing team's best cover man AND safety help nearly every snap. And despite that, he's still won us three games and is in the process of shattering every meaningful rookie WR record in this franchise's history. You think he's much, much better than that so I'd love to hear why. If you really did watch all of the Tampa games you might have noticed that Evans has outperformed Sammy as well as his teammate Vincent Jackson (who incidentally also has better numbers than Watkins) despite having a terrible running game and the likes of Josh McCown and Mike Glennon playing QB. I've gone into great detail as to why I think Sammy is better. And your argument with Evans only further proves my point. Evans is the second best receiver on his own team -- doesn't matter if you don't think so, but opposing defenses do. Vincent Jackson today is better than Mike Evans. That's why if you actually watch Evans play (and not just the highlights) you'll see he gets the easiest match up every week, and rarely gets doubled or safety help. He also plays with two QBs who cater to what he does best. McCown and Glennon aren't world beaters and aren't much better (if at all) than Orton, but their play style suits Evans far better than Orton's does Sammy's. It's inarguable if you watch the games. So... yes, I have watched every Tampa game and every Carolina game this year. I watch a lot of football, and I've specifically watched these games (and Beckham's) because I've wanted to watch this rookie receiving class as much as I can. As a fan! Seriously, this class is sick. I'm not trying to say Evans is bad, he's good. Benjamin is not good yet, he's raw with oodles of up-side. Why? Because he doesn't know the route tree, he has rocks for hands and no field awareness whatsoever. Two of those things can be coached up, so Benjamin might one day be a good or even great receiver. But he's not there yet. And had you made your (ridiculous) comments about Benjamin, we'd be in agreement. But you made it about Sammy... which is just... :lol: Because if you actually watch Sammy you'll see that unlike Evans, he's the best WR on his team and opposing defenses know it. Sammy's faced murderer's row of corners this year -- and been doubled while doing so. He's faced far better defenses than Evans, Benjamin or Beckham. Watch the all-22s and you'll see despite this, he's getting open (and I'm talking OPEN) a staggering percentage of the time. Far more than Evans and Benjamin and Beckham despite the fact those guys are facing more one on ones (though ODB's sample size is still too small -- still Beckham is better than Evans and Benjamin in my mind and the only real threat to Sammy's claim as the best in the class). This isn't hype, this isn't blind homerism, anyone can see what I'm talking about on game days or on the all 22s. But what really sold me on Sammy was the time I got to spend at training camp this year. I went to a bunch of practices and got some pretty sweet access at times. I've seen him at 100%, in person, up close and personal. The guy is a freaking stud. I've never seen a more athletic receiver who looked so fluid and natural while coming in and out of his breaks. It was fun just watching the guy run routes against air. And right now he's playing at 75% and still performing beyond what most rookies dream of. So yes, I am a huge Sammy fan but it's not borne out of loyalty to the Bills. It comes from being a really big football nerd and die-hard Bills fan. But I'd like to think I'm capable of being objective. Please quit making things up. Considering I'm the only one answering questions when challenged, and the only one who provides examples as well as context, I'd kindly tell you to do the same. Now give us your list. Let's go. I see this quoted about us taking Ebron if it wasn't for the trade. Can I get a quote from Brandon or Whaley that he was the guy? Watch the Chris Brown piece on the bills page from the draft. It's there on video. Except that Whaley did say that Ebron would have been the pick. A few times. I keep reading this on how Sammy is being held back by his QB. Then what about the scrubs throwing to Beckham, Evans, Benjamin. Both Eli Manning, and Cam Newton are having very bad seasons Josh McCown is the 28 ranked QB, and yet Mike Evans is the leading yardage receiver, and ranked 15th of all receivers. You're a prisoner of the moment. Yes, those QBs are having down years but they still are better quarterbacks than what Sammy has. McCown, as I went into above, might not be better than Orton but his skill set matches up with Evans (he throws the ball high to tall WRs deep down the seams, like he did in Chicago) better than Orton's matches up with Sammy's. Eli is a two time super bowl MVP and a HOF, he reads defenses and throws a better ball than anyone on the Bills roster even when he's throwing it to the other team. Cam Newton has his detractors but he throws a nice ball and has the benefit of playing in a semi-pro division. That helps Benjamin.
CardinalScotts Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 tremendous talent, played hurt from ribs to a groin, despite that teams still double and roll their coverage to him. His QB isn't very good......but first and foremost he's 21 and i don't base to much on 3/4 of his first season
HOUSE Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) "Gives up on game day passes"?! uh No. In a few years we'll know how the trade-up worked out for us, but until then I love watching the guy more than any other player we have (tied with CJ when he's hot). Next year he'll be even better. If he's not injury prone, he's a pro bowler next season. Even with a sub par qb. Ah,yes...can't count how many times Edited December 11, 2014 by HOUSE
thewildrabbit Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 You're a prisoner of the moment. Yes, those QBs are having down years but they still are better quarterbacks than what Sammy has. McCown, as I went into above, might not be better than Orton but his skill set matches up with Evans (he throws the ball high to tall WRs deep down the seams, like he did in Chicago) better than Orton's matches up with Sammy's. Eli is a two time super bowl MVP and a HOF, he reads defenses and throws a better ball than anyone on the Bills roster even when he's throwing it to the other team. Cam Newton has his detractors but he throws a nice ball and has the benefit of playing in a semi-pro division. That helps Benjamin. and yet Orton didn't decide to use Sammy as a decoy. If anything is holding Sammy backs its this junior college offensive coaching staff. Throwing 40+ times almost every game and Sammy isn't even the primary target a lot of times. Scott Chandler had the most receptions last game with 8, and Hogan had as many as Sammy with 7. Gee, who should we throw more to, the scrub TE, the scrub WR or the kid we gave up three draft choices for...decisions...decisions.
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